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B-Nasty posted:It's probably that simple. Horses have circles for hands. Uh, so, current plan is a minimum of 6sqm (65sqft), enclosed, normal height, insulated. Might be 50-100% larger, but no bigger than that. Will catch a lot of sun, but I'd predict a sway of 15ºC (~25ºF) from the ideal in each direction depending on season. One wrinkle is that I'll likely have some server and networking equipment either in cabinets in the same room or ideally in a cupboard next door, and ideally I'd want to keep that cold regardless of the season. If it's not hugely more expensive to have that on a separate stat somehow that would be great, otherwise I guess it's keep it in the same room and have closable vents to control whether the AC affects it? It's a new build so I can do basically whatever works best, and I'll have full access to the space above the room (though ideally I'd like to use most of that for flat storage).
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Sep 27, 2020 13:10
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Yea, a mini split is what you want. I’ve done commercial IT rooms that all they get is a minisplit. For your equipment cabinet, if you’re really worried about that overheating, you could stick a bathroom exhaust fan on it and use louvered doors to draw air through the cabinet to keep it cool.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:00
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Mini splits are always the answer. A 9k btu unit and literally any amount of insulation will almost certainly be all you need. My 12k unit is in a much larger room in a much harsher climate and holds 22c set point just fine. It doesn't have butt coin mining or whatever you want to do but it does have several hundred watts of computers. Keep the air in the room moving and your computers will be fine. If you aren't going to be in the room other than to service them and get stuff consider not putting doors on your rack.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:36
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Jaded Burnout posted:I haven't told you what my needs are yet! Or is it that simple? You told me you wanted to heat and cool a small outbuilding! The only downside to mini splits is they're fuckugly, but this sounds like a workshop.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:59
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the only downside to a mini split in a workshop is their filtration is poo poo. after a few years you have to tear the inside unit apart and clean it. its not difficult, (assuming you don't put the unit somewhere annoying) just poo poo you have to do.
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Sep 27, 2020 18:03
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Bird in a Blender posted:Yea, a mini split is what you want. I’ve done commercial IT rooms that all they get is a minisplit. I would need two though, right? Unless the 'puters are sharing the same air as the office. H110Hawk posted:Mini splits are always the answer. A 9k btu unit and literally any amount of insulation will almost certainly be all you need. My 12k unit is in a much larger room in a much harsher climate and holds 22c set point just fine. It doesn't have butt coin mining or whatever you want to do but it does have several hundred watts of computers. It will be relatively low load, nothing dramatic. H110Hawk posted:Keep the air in the room moving and your computers will be fine. If you aren't going to be in the room other than to service them and get stuff consider not putting doors on your rack. That depends on whether the rack will be in a separate room. The main space I need climate controlled is a small office, so I can have the rack(s) in there provided they're sound deadened, but of course that opens up a new can of airflow issues. If they're in a separate smaller room I can dedicate that space no problem, but I'm assuming I'll need another indoor unit in that area, since they'll have slightly different needs, and be isolated? Elviscat posted:The only downside to mini splits is they're fuckugly, but this sounds like a workshop. It's an office inside a workshop, so less accepting of ugly but it can stretch to an AC unit no problem. MRC48B posted:the only downside to a mini split in a workshop is their filtration is poo poo. after a few years you have to tear the inside unit apart and clean it. The office part that I'll be climate controlling will be an internal room within the main workshop space, so dust etc won't be much of an issue. For the main workshop space I'll probably heat with a wood burner and cool with fans & open doors/windows.
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Sep 27, 2020 18:14
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Jaded Burnout posted:That depends on whether the rack will be in a separate room. The main space I need climate controlled is a small office, so I can have the rack(s) in there provided they're sound deadened, but of course that opens up a new can of airflow issues. If they're in a separate smaller room I can dedicate that space no problem, but I'm assuming I'll need another indoor unit in that area, since they'll have slightly different needs, and be isolated? Draw a picture, but they make multi-head units. If you install them on the same spot on the wall it's super easy. If you are willing to buy a few tools you can totally DIY it, lots of them come pre-charged for a set lineset length. I don't know if your country allows DIY installs though. There is a HUGE range of units, but as I understand it Fujitsu makes the top of the line units, Mitsubishi is similar. LG, Samsung, etc all make them. Then there are random no-nameish brands that will likely work just fine. They make the wall units in various shapes and sizes as well. This is similar to what I bought, but in multi-head. You just mix and match what you need and off you go: https://www.ecomfort.com/Fujitsu-F2L18W07070000/p65919.html H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 18:27
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H110Hawk posted:Draw a picture, but they make multi-head units. If you install them on the same spot on the wall it's super easy. If you are willing to buy a few tools you can totally DIY it, lots of them come pre-charged for a set lineset length. I don't know if your country allows DIY installs though. There is a HUGE range of units, but as I understand it Fujitsu makes the top of the line units, Mitsubishi is similar. LG, Samsung, etc all make them. Then there are random no-nameish brands that will likely work just fine. They make the wall units in various shapes and sizes as well. That's some good background, thank you. Edit: I've done a lil google, and it looks like even with the "easy fit" units you need an F gas engineer to commission it, so I may as well get it installed. As to whether DIYing any of it is a good idea, I found two competing opinions, one saying nah definitely don't, the other saying yeah definitely do. Guess which was an installer and which was a supplier. Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 18:37
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Jaded Burnout posted:That's some good background, thank you. One thing I realize is that I don't know if you can have Head 1 in "cool" (for the computers) and Head 2 in "heat" (for you) in the winter. Something to consider / ask about. In theory it should just make the whole thing even more hyper efficient because it could scavenge the heat from your computer room, or leave the "computer" one just off/move the set point so it never engages. Fujitsu really tries to disclaim all warranty if you DIY the install, and extends it further if you have a "certified" installer do it. It was literally cheaper to buy 2 "grey market" units than have one certified installer do it so long as they last 5 years each. Watch a youtube video on it, it's dead simple if you're using pre-flared linesets with a simple run. I had our GC install it and their HVAC person commission it.
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Sep 27, 2020 18:55
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H110Hawk posted:One thing I realize is that I don't know if you can have Head 1 in "cool" (for the computers) and Head 2 in "heat" (for you) in the winter. Something to consider / ask about. In theory it should just make the whole thing even more hyper efficient because it could scavenge the heat from your computer room, or leave the "computer" one just off/move the set point so it never engages. You Cannot* *Certain  systems, like Mitsubishi City Multi VRF, can do this. You don't want to spend that much. And those units start at a minimum size of 6 tons/72k btu. Install separate splits for each zone, or set up your office/network closet such that one system serves both. Use a circulation fan to pull air from one zone to the other, for example. MRC48B fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 19:08
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MRC48B posted:Install separate splits for each zone, or set up your office/network closet such that one system serves both. Use a circulation fan to pull air from one zone to the other, for example. Yeah this will require a bit of engineering since the airflow needs will be different in different seasons, but can probably be solved by some closable vents and open/close them with the seasons.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:23
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Jaded Burnout posted:Yeah this will require a bit of engineering since the airflow needs will be different in different seasons, but can probably be solved by some closable vents and open/close them with the seasons. Would your computer room ever need cooling while you are heating your non-computer room? Or would just leaving that head off / set to "heat" to 15c or whatever be a functional equivalent?
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Sep 27, 2020 19:27
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H110Hawk posted:Would your computer room ever need cooling while you are heating your non-computer room? Or would just leaving that head off / set to "heat" to 15c or whatever be a functional equivalent? If it's boxed into a sealed room it'll need 24/7 cooling. If it's venting outside in the winter then it wouldn't need active cooling (but would need some kind of moisture control).
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Sep 27, 2020 20:16
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Another option to consider, if installation rules are tough in your country, are PTAC heat pumps. Framing out the sleeve in the wall is something anyone that has every swung a hammer can do, and then you just need to install (or have an electrician do it), the high current receptacle. Uglier and less efficient than a mini split, but don't require an HVAC tech to evac the lines. Popular in the states for enclosed porches, and of course, hotel rooms.
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Sep 27, 2020 22:52
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Is it normal for my heater, which has an electric outlet attached to it, to be sitting on cinderblocks over a small tub filled with water? 
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Sep 28, 2020 23:52
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TLDR: Seems fine. if that gfci or circuit breaker starts tripping on you, you have a problem somewhere. seek professional help at that point if you are unable to do electrical troubleshooting. if the water gets goopy and nasty, get some "condensate pan tablets", and drop a few in whenever you change your air filter. LONG EXPLANATION: so the thing sitting sitting in the tub on the left is a condensate pump. when your ac runs (and/or your furnace, depending.) it makes waste water (condensate). which collects in the tub, until the float switch in the pump kicks on, which then pumps it through the pipes to the nearest drain. this is probably because of the layout of your basement, and they couldn't find a convenient way to make it drain via gravity. the outlet is on a circuit breaker, so if it shorts then it will trip. that pump outlet is also a gfci, which will protect against that pump sending electricity through the water through anyone unfortunate to touch it.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:11
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Thank you for your insight on this!
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Sep 29, 2020 00:31
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Uh, from the picture it looks like the GFCI has tripped, which is why the condensate pump has overflowed into the auxillary drain pan.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:34
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 you're right. that is a problem. I'm used to the cheapass gfcis without status lights.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:41
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Oh hey, that's pretty much identical to my furnace! Speaking of... ~2 year old Goodman HVAC install (matched inside and outside). It's still cooling fine, but it's muggy as hell inside. The drain is draining, it's not backed up (it drains outside). Any ideas? I tried cranking it WAY down (68, we normally keep it at 74) to get some dehumidification action going since we do keep it kinda warm, but it's still humid inside, just a cold humid. It ran for over an hour to bring it down that low, so there should have been a good amount of dehumidification. There's good airflow through the house, though only 1 return (in the center of the house). Side note: on nights when it's below 70 out, we do sleep with the windows open and the HVAC turned off, but that's only been a handful of nights this month. That's going to increase a bit with the cold front we're expecting. It's a Goodman 2 ton unit (GSX14 series, R-410a) with matching Goodman furnace and coils, ~1000 sq ft (Texas, 80s house with almost no insulation, I've had smaller apartments with larger AC units that didn't cool this well, but it does struggle to get below ~73 on hot days). Filter was changed yesterday, coils on the outside unit cleaned this summer (strong spray nozzle through the coils from the inside of the unit, no acid or anything). Evap coils drain into the back yard, and there's a steady trickle coming from the drain. I'm guessing the charge might be a little low? Suggestions? randomidiot fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 03:29
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Are you running the blower fan constantly, or just on auto?
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Sep 29, 2020 12:00
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It's on auto 99% of the time, though it runs for 15-30 seconds (never timed it) after the thermostat shuts off (built into the furnace control board, not the thermostat), which I think is fairly common these days anyway. The 1% is for when most of the house is comfortable except for my bedroom, I'll kick it on for 15 minutes or so just to get some cooler air in here. That's not a daily thing, though, and it's usually late at night when it's not running much (if at all).
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Sep 29, 2020 20:59
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Do you have a humidity reading of some kind to verify your perception that the indoor humidity is not dropping? Assuming the answer is "yes", my best guess would be that Do you have a way to measure the temperature delta between the return and supply vents? Based on your description, and the fact that it's not freezing up, it sounds like it's operating normally, but a temp reading would help verify. quote:The following chart details the relative humidity and ∆T relationship: Just some numbers for reference I found with a quick Google, but notice that when RH goes up, your temperature delta goes down. This means the efficiency of the unit is decreased by the more humidity it's having to deal with. So if you've got lots of air leaks to the outdoors (or your roommate is leaving the door/window open more than you know), it's both going to cost efficiency in runtime, and raise the indoor RH since you live in a sauna.
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Sep 29, 2020 22:08
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I don't, but when a friend came over last night they asked why it felt like a cold sauna inside. I'll get a humidity meter and a laser thermometer to get some real numbers. The coils are on the top of the unit, as is the drain pan (standard for here when it's a closet install). If I look through one of the pipes I can see water draining fine from the pan, the overflow is dry, and there's definitely water coming out of the drain outside. Seems like a lot more than usual. Sorry for portrait, but this should give you an idea of how "handy" the installer was. Romex is being used as control wire for the outside unit, and runs inside the conduit for the 240V supply outside, so it's probably been handyman specialed since the place was built in 1981 (the romex used for the contactor looks to be as old as what's powering the furnace).  Pretty sure the insulation on the drain line is hiding some sins. Otherwise why would you insulate it when the line is within the conditioned space? 
randomidiot fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 19:11
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On that PVC upright close to the unit - is there air blowing out when the blower fan is running? If so, move that PVC cap on the other upright over (it shouldn't be glued). So, I've heard various reasons about whether to vent your condensate line, and I've seen plenty that do fine without one, but it looks like yours is "vented" at the cleanout tee that is before the p-trap. If you're going to have an open vent, it needs to be after the p trap. I suspect that while your unit is draining, this "vent" is causing it to hold more condensate in the drain pan than it should. Edit - I'd bet that when your blower shuts off, the drip of condensate outside suddenly becomes a small flood, as the water in the pan is no longer fighting with the air pressure to reach the drain and it all runs out. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 21:45
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I've tried it both ways. Originally that side was capped, with the middle one uncapped. I'll move it back for now, but I tried moving it to where it is now when I noticed how humid it was getting. The drain clogged a couple of months back. Notice the height of the left upright. You can probably guess what happened - the water level never got to the overflow (and thus, the shutoff).  e: you're saying I can cap both off safely though, right? It doesn't go into a drain, so no sewer gas to worry about - it just drains into the yard. If that's the case, I'll happily toss another cap on to prevent what I went through in August (my grandma's old rug is right on front of it... I was able to get it dry without damage thankfully) randomidiot fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 14:02
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Actually, looking at it again, even with the insulation on its really funky. That left upright is going to have water almost to the top in "normal" operation because the (what I assume is a) trap drops so much. To your question about venting - it's supposed to be vented. I've seen plenty that worked without it, but that's not really right. I dunno if this is causing a humidity issue as you describe, but it's a risk of flooding again and sure ain't helping. To your original humidity problem, the only other thing I can think of you can check yourself is for an air leak in the return duct that's in the attic, pulling in unconditioned outside air. You'd be pushing the same volume of conditioned air outside, and the RH would probably remain near outdoor level if the leak were large enough.
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Oct 1, 2020 16:05
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All original ducting in the attic, no attic access (it's a duplex), and you can see how "special" the duct is with all that duct tape and zip ties. That was us doing that - originally it was just blowing into that duct with a 2-3 inch gap on all sides. And yeah, the upright has water visibly flowing through it, but it's just down at the T connection level. The only time it's come to the top was when the drain got clogged with slime. That is an actual trap, but that seems kinda pointless when it's draining directly outside instead of into the household drain - but I'm not exactly an expert. Roommate said it didn't feel like this last fall, though. He's been here about 2 years. How about if I just add a few inches to the vent, and maybe try to angle the drain a little more downhill? I think adding a bit to the vent will keep it from overflowing enough to trip the cutoff (I've verified it works by removing it and moving it by hand, but there's no water marks on it... definitely never been wet). It seems like it has 2 traps. The typical P trap (though very small compared to most P traps I've seen - the one without a cap in the photo that you say needs a cap), and then a purpose-made trap/vent combo - the one you see capped in that photo (pulling the insulation off shows the pipe is intentionally bent upward, with some lettering about AC DRAIN VENT on it, so probably a purpose built Home Depot/Lowe's handyman part). I'm tempted to just redo everything above the final elbow at this point. It's a clusterfuck of handymanitis.
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Oct 1, 2020 16:39
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Yeah, definitely extend that vent and leave it open, especially if it's ahead of a second trap (whether an intentional trap or not). Sequential traps need a vent between them to prevent a vacuum.
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Oct 1, 2020 17:51
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STR posted:All original ducting in the attic, no attic access (it's a duplex), and you can see how "special" the duct is with all that duct tape and zip ties. That was us doing that - originally it was just blowing into that duct with a 2-3 inch gap on all sides. And yeah, the upright has water visibly flowing through it, but it's just down at the T connection level. The only time it's come to the top was when the drain got clogged with slime. The trap is there so your HVAC doesn't blow to the outside, and so stuff from the outside doesn't come in. I like that they pointlessly insulated the drain line that's in conditioned space, but used lovely duct tape to hold stuff together.
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Oct 2, 2020 00:54
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Yeah... handyman special. This place is a slumlord special in general. I kind of want to cut that off and see what horrors are hiding behind the insulation - there's no reason to insulate the drain when it's within conditioned space, unless you're hiding poo poo. I moved the cap and uh... no more sauna. I remember moving it because it seemed really muggy inside, but I think we'd had the windows open all night.  The duct tape and zip ties on the duct itself are from my roommate and I. The duct going to the vents doesn't even begin to touch the output coming out of the furnace (a couple of inches on every side). That was our  solution. The AC could barely hit 78 before we did that (and it'd run nonstop all day), it can hit 68 if you let it run long enough now.** We're still hitting 90s during the day here, it's still very much AC season during the day
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Oct 3, 2020 18:17
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angryrobots posted:Uh, from the picture it looks like the GFCI has tripped, which is why the condensate pump has overflowed into the auxillary drain pan. MRC48B posted:
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Oct 5, 2020 04:23
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Wait so what should I do about this / explain to my landlord? Well step 1 would be to try and reset the GFCI receptacle and see if the pump starts working. If it doesn't reset, unplug the pump and try again. If it resets, you can try plugging the pump in, if it trips, the pump is bad. If it won't reset with nothing plugged in, the GFCI is probably bad. That's about as far as I think a renter should diagnose, from there it's stuff your landlord needs to handle. Also, the condensate pump has an extra set of contacts that are specifically to shut off the AC if the pump fails. Your landlord should probably have that added to prevent possible future water damage.
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Oct 5, 2020 05:08
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If they're anything like my landlord, they put those contacts at the overflow (which is proper, AFAIK), then add an air gap 6 loving inches lower (NOT proper) for a waterfall effect when the drain clogs. Then the landlord blames you for running the AC while the drain was clogged. I'm sorry for running the AC when I sleep, Mr Landlord.  I pulled the contacts off the overflow, they've never been wet. We had water almost to the front door (furnace/coils are in the hallway) w/a tile floor when it clogged..
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Oct 5, 2020 16:45
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Well, with a condensate pump you don't really want to completely fill it, if it like loses power say, cause then water can get into the motor. In OP's case, his pump is under the unit (well, duh), and inside an auxiliary catch pan that really should never have water in it. So in his case, imo it really needs the pump switch, a pan float switch, and an overflow switch on the unit (if equipped.. Often I see this skipped). At my wife's old house, the first time we tried to sell it and it was sitting unoccupied mid-summer, I stopped by to check one day on a whim, and a single drop of water hit me when I walked under the attic access door. Looked down and there was maybe 3 drops on the floor. Popped up there and noted that the air handler auxillary drain pan was completely full. Reached in and my finger went completely through the bottom of the pan. What followed was something that needed yakkity sax playing in the background, but I managed to stem the tide and soak it up before the floor or ceiling got damaged.. Changing the pan out was an absolute nightmare because the unit had almost no clearance to pick it up. What happened, was that despite having dual drains (one on the unit, and a separate one on the pan) and neither completely clogged, the PVC male adapter where the main drain connected to the unit was cracked. So for years, some or most of the condensate was dripping into the pan, with some settling in the lower end, and running out of that drain pan as well. It "worked" just fine until the auxillary pan rusted a hole through the bottom which I happened to catch before it became an even bigger mess. HVAC is a mix of plumbing, electrical, high pressure refrigerant, and sometimes flammable gas or fuel oil that is all looking for something to gently caress up all the time.
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Oct 5, 2020 21:56
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Anyone have any experience with Fujitsu Mini-splits? I have a couple indoor units: AGU9RLF. When I turn one on, it comes on for a few seconds, the fan starts, the operation light comes on. After about 60 seconds, the operation light starts blinking and the fan turns off. When I power cycle it it happens again. I haven't left it on to see if it clears. I have the service manual for it, but it doesn't mention that specific scenario. EDIT: the other LEDs are not on at all, unlike most other error scenarios. Super-NintendoUser fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 16:31
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Jerk McJerkface posted:Anyone have any experience with Fujitsu Mini-splits? I have a couple indoor units: AGU9RLF. When I turn one on, it comes on for a few seconds, the fan starts, the operation light comes on. After about 60 seconds, the operation light starts blinking and the fan turns off. When I power cycle it it happens again. I haven't left it on to see if it clears. I have the service manual for it, but it doesn't mention that specific scenario. Count the blinks. They tell you the specific error code. I've got a 3-zone Fuji system, and have spent some time working on it.
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Oct 7, 2020 20:20
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I'm trying to add a return air in a basement. Based on the layout the best place I can see to add it is in studs on one of the furnace room walls. Based on what's available at the local big box stores, plus some old HVAC drawings from when this place was built, my plan is to pan 14"-spaced-studs, then use a 6" round take-off to connect it to the main return in the furnace room. I feel like in an ideal world I'd craft up some full 3-1/2" x 14" rectangular ducting with its own elbow to turn into the main return, but none of that seems to be available locally. Am I being an idiot? I'm worried that a rectangular butt-end (top of bays) with a round take-off isn't exactly an ideal connection. Jenkl fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 23:48
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sharkytm posted:Count the blinks. They tell you the specific error code. I've got a 3-zone Fuji system, and have spent some time working on it. It's just the operation light slow blinking continuously. There's no pattern like the other errors. The other LEDs don't light at all.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:49
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Jerk McJerkface posted:It's just the operation light slow blinking continuously. There's no pattern like the other errors. The other LEDs don't light at all. Are you mixing modes? You can't have heat on one unit and fan/AC on another, they've got to be all on heat or off. AC and fan can coexist.
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Oct 8, 2020 03:22
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