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apropos to nothing posted:from what ive heard youre not alone. UK comrades recently explained that almost every week theres a new exodus from labour due to starmers failed leadership and capitulation to the government. they also said though that people arent leaving cause theyre dejected, theyre leaving cause they want something better so thats a good sign imo yeah, I don't blame em tbh. I think I'm not far from it, I don't see my dues doing much good at the moment. still, no matter how frustrated I have been at our failures I'm still glad we tried for it, I personally feel like I made an effort you know? don't get into left political organizations if you wanna get sick of winning, lol
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 19:11 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:51 |
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breadnsucc posted:organizations suck because they always fall towards liberalism good point. there is literally no way to organize politically that does not lead to liberalism. Francis Fukuyama was right.
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 19:27 |
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breadnsucc posted:organizations suck because they always fall towards liberalism countering liberalism by refusing to act collectively, very interesting
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:05 |
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Gaupo Guacho posted:it was a randomly assigned Av………
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:08 |
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an actual dog posted:trolling c-spam by saying you should join a political organization
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:13 |
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little munchkin posted:your group seems cool but the nearest branch is two hours away from me i sent you a pm if youre interested
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:20 |
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dont be ignorant you can organize without organizing with an official organization and you guys know that is what i meant
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:29 |
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breadnsucc posted:dont be ignorant you can organize without organizing with an official organization and you guys know that is what i meant
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 20:30 |
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breadnsucc posted:dont be ignorant you can organize without organizing with an official organization and you guys know that is what i meant so i guess i have some kind of unusual context here - i was raised Baháʼí, and while i haven't been a good Baháʼí in a very very long time but some ideas stick. i don't gamble, for example, never have and don't see the appeal in it, because it's one of the lifestyle tenants of Baha'ism is you don't gamble. i mention this because another lifestyle restriction is that you are not supposed to join political parties, nor by default vote on party lines - you're obligated to be a good citizen and interrogate the candidates before you make your decision. anyway this is a long winded explanation that i had a personal bulletproof justification not to join a political party, and i still wound up doing so. because i had spent a lot of my life choosing instead to adhere to my personal impossible standard and as such accomplishing nearly literally nothing. and don't get me wrong demos and supporting strikes and stuff and other personal actions are really important but like - our politics are people powered. you literally can't take the "social" from "socialism" it's kind of the whole point - getting organized and doing stuff with said organization is literally our only route to power. and, hey ground away for a few years at a party and a union i did not 100% agree with and welp it's been a rough year sometimes feels like we accomplished literally nearly nothing! lol. but i did good work and got a hell of a lot closer then when i was doing it with a bunch of comrades than when i was arguing about it on a message board. and like, i quantitatively assure you that trying and failing is a lot better, both in how it feels and what it does to you, than not trying and failing. start doing the latter and you'll struggle to stop.
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 21:08 |
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GalacticAcid posted:countering liberalism by refusing to act collectively, very interesting figures that socialism with American characteristics would be individualism
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# ? Oct 10, 2020 22:36 |
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 02:08 |
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lol
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 02:15 |
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 02:43 |
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lmao
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 03:26 |
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 03:43 |
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gamers rise up (in the ranks of your political organization)
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# ? Oct 11, 2020 03:43 |
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breadnsucc posted:dont be ignorant you can organize without organizing with an official organization and you guys know that is what i meant what
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# ? Oct 12, 2020 21:07 |
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bump
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 01:15 |
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does salt US have ties w salt australia
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 01:38 |
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swimsuit posted:does salt US have ties w salt australia I hope not SAlt USA actually does things
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 02:09 |
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 02:21 |
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swimsuit posted:does salt US have ties w salt australia no, we have an australian section but their name is socialist action. all over the world the name is different like in ireland its the socialist party, in ivory coast its militant, etc. apparently its very bad that we share a name in australia though cause the group called socialist alternative is very bad from what I have read and been told.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 02:39 |
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since some people are still being willfully ignorant re official organizations and just organizing, have some fun with this, i could go through all the super liberal garbage like greenpeace or indivisible or our revolution or whatever but lets focus on the favorites, at least in my neck of the woods join dsa guys we can sit around and talk about electoralism for four years and then accomplish (????) Has DSA accomplished anything? I don't know because it certainly doesn't here in the PNW. join sra guys we cant talk about anything political at all because we're too scared to combine our politics and guns because opsec(?????) join socialist alternative guys we will get an elected official and then completely stop doing anything else (?) these are organizations that are effectively politically useless in part because they are 'official' and incorporated under the law as Organizations 501cfuckoffs or whatever. They have strangled themselves by becoming an 'official' thing in the eyes of the state, as far as I can tell these groups mostly serve to siphon what little dollars (and time) the working left has into pointless bureaucracy, at least in my ~20 years of being an activist. Maybe someone has some nice stories from other places where these orgs have actually loving done something. And honestly, I may just be loving bitter that where I live these orgs are useless and full of garbage liberals that gasp and run away at the sound of breaking glass. The only official political organization that I can think of that has accomplished any good is probably the IWW which has fairly effectively been helping unionize some small businesses, and my understanding is that the IWW relies entirely on direct action rather than political action to effect change By contrast, something like John Brown Gun Club is not an incorporated "official" thing, it does everything SRA does(but better and more) and it very much combines political ideology in its mission of demystifying guns to the unwashed masses, and then actually puts that knowledge to use or Food Not Bombs which has been more effectively mutual aiding plus spreading propaganda since like the 80s than loving any left political organization I've heard of in the past 30 years(I bring this up because 'mutual aid' has become a hot topic among a lot of these garbage political organizations and I've sat through many a zoom call where people are trying to organize how to food distribution, when other people have been doing it for decades and better, and I'm like, why not just volunteer with Food Not Bombs or Egyhop(A local org that is better than Food Not Bombs)? And I just get silence. The most effective form of political organization as far as I can tell is small, local, autonomous, groups, untethered from such simple ideas as becoming "official" or even tying themselves to "official" political ideologies, ie socialism or communism or whatever the gently caress other political organizations are wasting their loving time on.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 05:17 |
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breadnsucc posted:since some people are still being willfully ignorant re official organizations and just organizing, have some fun with this, i could go through all the super liberal garbage like greenpeace or indivisible or our revolution or whatever but lets focus on the favorites, at least in my neck of the woods it's like you want there to be some organization with the strength to contest state-power, but you don't want to deal with all the bullshit involved with actually building an organization that might be able to do it. small local autonomous groups are important and can do good things, but treating them as the model for building up a socialist left is basically incoherent and ahistorical
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 05:18 |
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i mean, you shouldnt join a pac or ngo but an actually member driven and democratic organization. and the reason you dont make some little autonomous group in your sole city is because there are national and even international issues which require national or international organization to fight. the first step to that is finding political agreement and then working together to find ways to put those politics into action. alternatively: lol
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 12:18 |
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IWW, FoodnotBombs, and Mutual Aid Disaster Relief are all great orgs to get involved with.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 16:18 |
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also https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3943326&
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 16:19 |
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I would appreciate impressions of the difference between an ML and a Trot party in 2020. Are there any decent orgs that are more agnostic (or syncretic) to these lines?
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 17:04 |
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LittleBlackCloud posted:I would appreciate impressions of the difference between an ML and a Trot party in 2020. Are there any decent orgs that are more agnostic (or syncretic) to these lines? you should look into the political program of an organization and decide whether you agree with it or not. that is way more useful in actually determining if you should join than any historical differences. typically if im talking to someone and they want to get into trotskyists vs anarchists vs ML vs whatever discussion i treat that as a huge red flag (in a bad way) that they arent really serious about being politically active. not saying thats you but in general i have found that to be the case most times.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 17:19 |
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breadnsucc posted:
if your threshold for effective political organization is breaking glass idk what to tell you
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 17:37 |
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apropos to nothing posted:you should look into the political program of an organization and decide whether you agree with it or not. that is way more useful in actually determining if you should join than any historical differences. typically if im talking to someone and they want to get into trotskyists vs anarchists vs ML vs whatever discussion i treat that as a huge red flag (in a bad way) that they arent really serious about being politically active. not saying thats you but in general i have found that to be the case most times. I'm not wanting to get into that discussion tbh. I guess I really have to drill down, but so many of these orgs seem to have very similar platforms. I like that SAlt has an associated international. I guess since you're in SAlt, what's the position on "actually existing socialism"? What were the disagreements you mentioned ( I think ) with the PSL?
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 17:37 |
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LittleBlackCloud posted:I'm not wanting to get into that discussion tbh. I guess I really have to drill down, but so many of these orgs seem to have very similar platforms. I like that SAlt has an associated international. I guess since you're in SAlt, what's the position on "actually existing socialism"? What were the disagreements you mentioned ( I think ) with the PSL? its kind of hard to get into differences honestly. not trying to be evasive but it just comes from how you engage in movement work. like they use what i would classify as front groups in stuff like the answer coalition and other more local or regional organizations. i also disagree with the way they recruit new people and a lot of their political perspectives. i dont wanna just mudsling and critique cause again i'd hope this could be a thread where people could put forward positive reasons to join their or a specific org not trash others. our approach in SA is to build our party but also build the broader labor movement. thats why we call for a new mass working class party as an important step towards building the labor movement. we dont see ourselves as that party because were realistic about our size and influence at the moment and also were a revolutionary socialist org and most people who would at the present anyway join a mass workers party would not be revolutionaries or even socialists. but we try to work to build the forces capable of such a formation because it would be a huge step in advancing the labor movement here. I would suggest more generally if youre interested in joining an organization you can usually sign up on their webpage and someone will get in touch with you and actually have a 1 on 1 convo with you about their politics and yours and see if its a good fit. I do this constantly with people who are interested in SA.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 17:59 |
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in my experience: IWW kicks rear end Bail funds/prisoner support groups kick rear end and need all the help they can get DSA is real swingy based on chapter, but the good chapters are real good also if you join an org and have a car (or van or truck especially) please let someone know. you're always extremely useful if you can haul poo poo or people (well, maybe not right now) around.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 20:23 |
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In my own personal experience, you should seek out organizations that do specific organizing work and aren't just having constant pointless meetings to make pointless declarations for their facebook page and organizing pointless marches with less than a hundred people every weekend. An example from my own experience is that when I was in college I really liked helping out the local chapter of the IWW because they were constantly doing stuff like helping union/co-op efforts, bail funds, helping efforts to assist homeless people in the area, and working with community orgs like fnb/psl/soc-alt/etc. along with local community orgs that werent even explicitly "political" like homeless shelters, existing unions, and fair housing groups. Everything they did seemed like a really specific building block towards leftist goals. Kanine has issued a correction as of 20:38 on Oct 13, 2020 |
# ? Oct 13, 2020 20:34 |
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Good history of the American leftJoe Belusi posted:Firstly, starting with the mother of all of American Leftism, the Socialist Party of America is the root of most of these groups through it expelling its members sympathetic to eitherTrotsky or Stalin, which was in its history the utmost majority of its members purged from the top. This had the effect of getting rid of most labor leaders and the lower strata of the working class. The SPA stagnated for decades until breaking apart into what became the right (DSA) and Left (SPUSA, arguably the Green Party, LUP, and PFP) of self-identified socialists against revolution. Joe Belusi posted:Oh yeah, also apart of the Left are weird Kautskyites that straddle the border of Left Communism and social democracy. These groups include the DSA arguably, the LUP, and the PFP. Basically pacifist Marxists to the Left of social democracy.
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 23:00 |
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are you suggesting that the cspam gaming thread isnt political organising
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 23:08 |
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thread should prob get stickied so it's not lost to time in a week
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# ? Oct 13, 2020 23:10 |
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more info from that threadPSOL posted:Workers’ Liberty endorses Hawkins Third Party posted:CPUSA has been totally dead as an independent political party since Gus Hall died. After that, liberal Democrats took over. Nowadays, the "Communist" Party is nothing more than a fake satellite organization of the Democratic Party machine that orders its tiny number of followers to obediently vote for the Democrats in every election. Its previous leader, Sam Webb, a few years ago even came out of the closet and admitted that he was nothing more than a shameless Democrat. On the US left right now, only two parties matter in terms of third party electoral activity: the Green Party and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.
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# ? Oct 16, 2020 23:15 |
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swimsuit posted:are you suggesting that the cspam gaming thread isnt political organising if anyone wants to build existing socialism in conan exiles i'll buy the server
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 01:31 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:51 |
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jarofpiss posted:if anyone wants to build existing socialism in conan exiles i'll buy the server Jeffrey of Conan exiles
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 02:28 |