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I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't sell tons of them at those prices. Intel in many people's minds is still the "go-to" and when people see that AMD is actually more expensive this time around... at least I hope so because I'd like to get a 5800X to replace my 2600x but not for 500€ or whatever it ends up costing locally 
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Oct 12, 2020 16:01
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ijyt posted:IDK, I'm pretty tempted by the 5900X. If Rocket Lake is still slated for a pre-March launch then I might wait and just focus on getting a 3080. I'm tempted to try out an i5-10400, but I'm worried that an H410 or B460 might not be able to support Rocket Lake later on Maybe I'll just wait
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Oct 12, 2020 16:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:I'm tempted to try out an i5-10400, but I'm worried that an H410 or B460 might not be able to support Rocket Lake later on I think I'm just soured on Intel a little after all the harrumph about the vulnerabilities and price/stagnation over the last few years.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:I'm tempted to try out an i5-10400, but I'm worried that an H410 or B460 might not be able to support Rocket Lake later on A potential problem here is that i5s on a B460 are limited to 2666 RAM so they're leaving performance on the table, enough that GNSteve took note of it, though I don't remember how much off hand.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:09
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AMD clearly believes they'll sell fine. I'm sure they also plan to drop prices over time as they have with all previous Zen generations, but probably to a less dramatic extent this time around.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:10
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Some Goon posted:A potential problem here is that i5s on a B460 are limited to 2666 RAM so they're leaving performance on the table, enough that GNSteve took note of it, though I don't remember how much off hand. I'm only on 2666 Mhz RAM anyway, so no loss there
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Oct 12, 2020 16:25
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Jesus Christ. AMD marketing the 10700k better than Intel ever could. They're also marketing the 3700X real good, prices on that have jumped back up! Anyways, the KF parts that were supposed to be the best price/performance competition for ryzen have been completely AWOL this whole year. Intel's problems are deeper than marketing or losing the performance crown, their whole production system is hosed up. I think AMD at this point is pulling their dick out and saying "even if we start charging more than you, you still can't supply enough processors to really compete".
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Oct 12, 2020 16:26
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ijyt posted:OcUK has preliminary prices for the 5000 series. Yeah the prices are very rough. Taking the binned XT models (that were already undesirable) as baseline and going even beyond that is  300 bucks for a salvaged sixcore is a hard pass for me. If it was a monolithic powerhouse like the new APUs running DDR4-4000, sure why not. But for the same old 12nm I/O chiplets and the IF still wasting gobs of energy in idle, nahh. sauer kraut fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 16:36
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sauer kraut posted:Yeah the prices are very rough. Taking the binned XT models (that were already undesirable) as baseline and going even beyond that is That plus prices for tech in the UK always suck rear end. e: I'm a little torn on upgrading my CPU now. Maybe I should just go for a 3900X instead, but the 5000 series performance boost in gaming is what I was kind of waiting for from AMD. ijyt fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 16:44
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Klyith posted:They're also marketing the 3700X real good, prices on that have jumped back up! It's this. If you want value buy a Zen 2. A 3700X is still a baller product at the $300 price point. Zen 3 right now is a "we're better, gently caress you" product, not a value for dollar choice.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:52
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ijyt posted:That plus prices for tech in the UK always suck rear end. I wonder what it'll be like next year; do you have to have a stack of USD/EUR stuffed in a mattress to order electronics and medicines from the civilized world?
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Oct 12, 2020 16:53
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sauer kraut posted:I wonder what it'll be like next year; do you have to have a stack of USD/EUR stuffed in a mattress to order electronics and medicines from the civilized world? No I kinda just plan on expiring.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:53
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ultimately it's probably better to take a 5600X over a 3700X but it's a needless self-own on AMD's part
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Oct 12, 2020 16:58
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Paul MaudDib posted:ultimately it's probably better to take a 5600X over a 3700X but it's a needless self-own on AMD's part It'll be interesting to see the actual "real" benchmarks. AMD might be trying to target all the people building new rigs this holiday season, what with Ampere/RDNA2 and all, and then might drop prices down to a more reasonable level in early 2021. If they're in any way inventory constrained on the Zen 3 chips, it would make good business sense to price them a bit high to start and milk the True Believers and early adopters, then look at a price drop once demand starts slipping below supply.
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Oct 12, 2020 17:10
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ijyt posted:That plus prices for tech in the UK always suck rear end. That's what I did. I managed to get a good deal on a new OEM 3900X for like £380 a few weeks back. It's not going to get kerbstomped by a 5900X, but also that's a big price difference and a big performance boost over my 2600. Only downside is that it's sat in a box waiting for a day one 3080 order to materialise. 
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Oct 12, 2020 17:24
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sean10mm posted:It's this. If you want value buy a Zen 2. A 3700X is still a baller product at the $300 price point. Zen 3 right now is a "we're better, gently caress you" product, not a value for dollar choice. I def plan to, but I've got a X370 & zen 3 would require a mobo upgrade. So it's doubly value for me. I was expecting a price drop on zen 2 CPUs though! Guess I'll see what happens when the new stuff actually comes out, or buy a 3700X from an upgrading goon.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:25
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Klyith posted:I def plan to, but I've got a X370 & zen 3 would require a mobo upgrade. So it's doubly value for me. I’ll sell you mine. Can I ship it to you from Canada?
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Oct 12, 2020 19:21
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Do we have any indication of how well Zen 3 does for inter-CCX communication for parts > 8 cores? From Epyc examples and such? Or is it the same fabric from zen 2 still
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Oct 12, 2020 21:09
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Nomyth posted:Do we have any indication of how well Zen 3 does for inter-CCX communication for parts > 8 cores? From Epyc examples and such? Or is it the same fabric from zen 2 still Parts over 8 cores would be via the io die, presumably. Since each ccx is now 8 cores, unless they go more than 8 cores per chiplet it seems like inter ccx should be a thing of the past if you're on the same chiplet. Obviously we'll need a deep dive on the uarch to know anything for sure.
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Oct 12, 2020 21:18
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DrDork posted:It'll be interesting to see the actual "real" benchmarks. AMD might be trying to target all the people building new rigs this holiday season, what with Ampere/RDNA2 and all, and then might drop prices down to a more reasonable level in early 2021. If they're in any way inventory constrained on the Zen 3 chips, it would make good business sense to price them a bit high to start and milk the True Believers and early adopters, then look at a price drop once demand starts slipping below supply. a 20% IPC gain makes up more than half of the difference vs a 33% increase in cores, and should dump on Zen2 in gaming performance (AMD claims the average is more like 26% improvement there, so it very close to makes up the difference). it's a tough pill to swallow for people to go backwards on core count after all this time but this is a situation where you should lean to the per-core performance over the extra cores, just like 8700K vs 2700X. Ironically this is AMD's "turing moment", the only suitable replacements are shifted up a cost bracket (5600 is now above 3700X pricing, 5800X is now above 3900X pricing, etc). As with that, if you can score a deal on the last gen then that's fine but I think people are getting a little too into the "just buy zen2!", just like they did with the "just buy 1080 Ti". Don't play into their game of following the price shift upwards ("I always buy the 8-core!") but like, if you have a choice between a 5600X and a 3700X at your price point the 5600X is probably the better pick. I think eventually they will launch non-X parts (5600 and 5700X assuming the lingo hasn't changed) but those will probably be +$50 over the 3000 series as well. And I don't expect them to drop significantly like they have in previous gens - this really didn't even happen as much as it used to on Zen2, the 3600 basically bottomed out at $160 and has been on an upswing this year due to COVID shortages, it is actually back up to MSRP, so it's $40 more expensive than its lowest. I also don't see there being significant clearance sales at most places, the inventory is moving fine anyway and the new stuff all shifts up a price tier so it's not a direct substitute, and in fact people are seeking out the earlier stuff because "more cores = better than". Where it gets a little rough is when it's more cores and lower price, like if you can get a 3700X for $295 or a 5600X for $350, what do you do then? I think that may equalize a little bit over time and settle around say $330 or so but it's still $30 extra for 10% slightly less MT performance. But it'll also do better in gaming (and I don't think it'll age significantly worse, the gaming IPC gains mean that it's not particularly dissimilar in total gaming MT either). There's no great answer, I think the right answer is to lean to the per-core performance over more slower cores, but that's always been a sticking point for the AMD crowd who really like big number. The 5800X should not be bought at all of course, you either settle for the 3900X or you suck it up and pay up for a 5900X, and the 5900X displaces the 3950X just like the 5600X displaces the 3700X. There is no direct replacement for the 3600 so if you're sticking to a strict budget then get one of those while they're still in stock or wait for a 5600 non-X to be released. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 21:34
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VorpalFish posted:Parts over 8 cores would be via the io die, presumably. Since each ccx is now 8 cores, unless they go more than 8 cores per chiplet it seems like inter ccx should be a thing of the past if you're on the same chiplet. Well, the 5900X is a 12-core part and the 5950X a 16-core part, so both would have a pair of complexes and have the ccx penalty. But for the 5800X and below, you're right, they're just sitting on a single complex. Though if AMD's benchmarks are to be believed, the IPC gains are large enough to offset any ccx penalty vs Intel's monolitic die. Paul MaudDib posted:a 20% IPC gain makes up more than half of the difference vs a 33% increase in cores, and should dump on Zen2 in gaming performance (AMD claims the average is more like 26% improvement there). it's a tough pill to swallow for people to go backwards on core count after all this time but this is a situation where you should lean to the per-core performance over the extra cores, just like 8700K vs 2700X. Yeah, I meant seeing non-AMD-run benchmarks vs Intel chips at given price points--particularly the 5800X. Zen 3 isn't really bringing many new features to the table, either, so if you can get a better performance for your dollar elsewhere, Zen 3 may not be the best choice. It's not like Zen 3 is the start of a new socket or something that you'll be able to ride through a CPU upgrade or two in the future.
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Oct 12, 2020 21:52
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I also wonder what that 19% IPC means in practice: most people are interested in one or a small handful of specific applications when it comes to multithreaded workloads, and in their 3950X vs 5950X slide three out of four applications had distinctly less than a 19% gain (5-12%)
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Oct 12, 2020 22:05
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DrDork posted:Yeah, I meant seeing non-AMD-run benchmarks vs Intel chips at given price points--particularly the 5800X. Zen 3 isn't really bringing many new features to the table, either, so if you can get a better performance for your dollar elsewhere, Zen 3 may not be the best choice. It's not like Zen 3 is the start of a new socket or something that you'll be able to ride through a CPU upgrade or two in the future. yeah that's true, you can see an argument for going 10700K over 3600X and 10850K/10900K over 3800X at these prices. Unfortunately the Intel stack has its own gotchas. You still probably want the Z-series board for memory overclocking, and I'm not 100% sure on how the power limit/tau situation plays out on locked chips (maybe you can override it but I'm not sure). Like, I saw Newegg was running the 10700 for $310 a few weeks ago, but I'm not sure how the power limit situation works. There's still a niche for Intel if they want, but they really gotta stop overly slicing up their lineup like they've done, and they gotta make more of an effort to hit MSRP, because while MSRP vs MSRP they're OK, AMD usually runs at least a little under MSRP and Intel usually runs over. If the numbers are as good as claimed tbh AMD will successfully extract the extra cash from your wallet/successfully force you down a core count tier, the new processors are still the better deal vs Intel and still the better deal vs Zen2 everywhere except the 3600 and the 3900X which still have viable niches. They clearly are not attractively priced like they were in the past but they're also still the best (least bad?) deal available when considering the price and the performance. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 22:06
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Paul MaudDib posted:There's still a niche for Intel if they want, but they really gotta stop overly slicing up their lineup like they've done, and they gotta make more of an effort to hit MSRP, because while MSRP vs MSRP they're OK, AMD usually runs at least a little under MSRP and Intel usually runs over. Yeah, a $20-$30 shift off MSRP (in either direction) suddenly is gonna matter more this generation than they have in the past. I'm not sure what the power-limiting deal on Intel non-Z boards is, either, but I do know AMD slaps Intel silly in actual power use, so any close matchups where heat and power are a worry (hell, my fine SFF friends!) are probably gonna go with AMD for that alone--100W or so is a big difference when you're trying to mash a good chip with a 3080 into a <15L case and a 600W SFX PSU.
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Oct 12, 2020 22:13
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DrDork posted:Yeah, a $20-$30 shift off MSRP (in either direction) suddenly is gonna matter more this generation than they have in the past. yeah the $30 over MSRP plus an extra $50 for a Z-series board plus the AMD maybe running $20 under MSRP still neuters a lot of Intel's potential pricing advantage here, it all adds up. One saving grace for Intel is that AMD has essentially dropped the cooler, the only one with a cooler is the 5600X and it's the garbo wraith stealth so you should pretty much just chuck it anyway. But the 14nm node still means you are blowing more power than AMD and are going to need a beefier cooler, like maybe the AMD can get away with a $35 pure rock slim or whatever but on the Intel you go with the $50 Scythe Mugen, so it's still another 15 bucks you are paying for Intel. It all adds up. So all in all that neutralizes a lot of the potential cost savings of, say, getting a 10700 or 10850K instead of a 5600X or even the 5800X. Take the Intel MSRPs and mentally add $100 for all the extra places you get nickled and dimed and they both pretty much are equal price-to-performance, but Intel you get a hotter experience and more security bugs. AMD is calculating this very carefully, it's not aggressive pricing but they are still the least bad pricing, just barely. They have recaptured almost all of the consumer surplus of going AMD, now it is pretty much priced exactly at the amount it's worth (relative to the point where it's worth going to something else instead). Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 22:23
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I'm excited because it looks like for the first time someone has made a processor with more and faster cores for around the same price I paid for my used and OCd 4770k in 2015. What a shitshow the last decade has been.
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Oct 12, 2020 22:34
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What a shitshow the last decade has been. My $350 5820k@4.5 from early 2016 is still lookin' pretty solid in the price:performance department.
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Oct 12, 2020 22:42
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sean10mm posted:It's this. If you want value buy a Zen 2. A 3700X is still a baller product at the $300 price point. Zen 3 right now is a "we're better, gently caress you" product, not a value for dollar choice. Yeah pretty much this. So long as you get a x570 mobo or one that the OEM has released a BIOS to support Zen3 you can always upgrade to Zen3 later on when the price drops anyways and get nice boost in performance before you really need to bother with DDR5 (particularly if you want to wait a while for DDR5 prices to drop a bit, so late-is 2021/early 2022 possibly?) which is looking to be about the time that maybe another upgrade would be worth it.
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Oct 12, 2020 22:56
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AMD is going to sell every single Zen3 they can produce for the foreseeable future even though they are priced the same as Intel. Simply because of the core count.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:02
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Did a bit of research on CPU coolers, since I'll need them for the first time in a long while. I was leaning toward be quiet!'s Shadow Rock TF 2, but pretty much every review agrees that they did a horrible job with AM4 attachment. I'm planning to keep running CPUs at 75W PPT, so I guess I can safely fall back to Noctua's NH-L9x65. Any other decent HSFs out there, less than 120mm high?
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Oct 12, 2020 23:23
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mdxi posted:Did a bit of research on CPU coolers, since I'll need them for the first time in a long while. Since we're in the AMD thread sticking with stock for less than 120mm HSF is actually a reasonable suggestion, depending on which CPU you're getting. The market for under 120mm HSFs is going to be to replace the trash intel stock coolers and to be quiet. I'd check out cryorig as well but I think that noctua is probably the best you can do without getting a new case. When people are talking about getting "free" overclocking with a "cheap" HSF they're talking about tower coolers that need 160mm or more of height clearance.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:46
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Well there's always the Noctua NH-C14S (with the fan underneath) if you really do want maximum air cooling under 120mm.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:50
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So there's this rumor going around that: 1. a Ryzen 5 5600 (non-X) will release in "early 2021" for a price of 220 USD. This next part I'm about to say is speculation piled on speculation, but that's a good time-frame for CES 2021 (January 11 to 14, 2021). 2. the Ryzen 5 5600X is comparable or even better to the i7-10700 - which would be really something, considering it's got two cores on the AMD CPU, but also since the 5600X is priced about the same as the i7-10700F. https://twitter.com/harukaze5719/status/1315477822220062720
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Oct 13, 2020 06:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:So there's this rumor going around that: What is the F in i7-10700F?
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Oct 13, 2020 06:43
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wargames posted:What is the F in i7-10700F? gently caress, that's a low base clock speed.
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Oct 13, 2020 06:48
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wargames posted:What is the F in i7-10700F? for clarity: that tweet is saying that the Ryzen 5600X (6-core-12-thread) is supposed to be comparable in performance to the i7-10700 (8-core-12-thread) the i5-10600KF, which is the 6-core-12-thread part from Intel 10th gen, overclockable and no integrated graphics (and therefore most closely resembles the 3600), is priced at around 237 USD the Ryzen 3600X, when it came out, was priced at 249 USD the i7-10700F, which is a locked (no overclocking) part with no integrated graphics (cheaper, but you always need a dedicated CPU), is priced at around 298 USD, so about the same as the 5600X the Ryzen 5600X is supposed to retail for 299 USD the i7-10700KF, which is the overclockable version of the 8-core, with no integrated graphics, is priced at around 349 USD
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Oct 13, 2020 06:52
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At $800 this is nice. 4800H laptop with onboard 2060RTX. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-15-6-laptop-amd-ryzen-7-8gb-memory-nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-512gb-ssd-fortress-gray/6408464.p?skuId=6408464 Wonder what sort of deals there might be for Prime Day. (Edit: no impressive computer deals) gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 09:13
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r/amd hoes mad because AMD can now price discriminate rather than chase market share it's me, i'm hoe and im mad AMD isn't extracting value harder
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Oct 13, 2020 13:01
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This was always going to happen though, AMD isn't some tech savior and if anything needs better margins than Intel does. AMD has been cornering the DIY mind/marketshare for the past 3 years and has it solidly on lockdown, easily commanding 60-70% of all DIY sales, and they'll probably crush it for the next 6 months as well. They're still selling at value in mobile and server but I think Cezanne and Milan will start changing a lot of that and by Rembrandt and Genoa they won't be perceived as the value brand and won't be sold at value prices. Especially if Intel never gets it's poo poo together through 2021.
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Oct 13, 2020 13:12
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I wouldn't say the new pricing is bad value, just not as good as when AMD was struggling to catch up. I'm not gonna go defend a multi-billion dollar corporation but nerds tend to overreact.
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Oct 13, 2020 13:14
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