|
p.s. if you think im a shitlib every time i post you have to admit if you aren't in an org
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 10:56 |
|
|
unlimited shrimp posted:Yeah. Treating it as a moral imperative to vote for Joe Biden in order to oust Trump is just another example of responsibilization. That’s not a word
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
Algund Eenboom posted:That’s not a word ok boomer
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
Doing leftism, responsibilizationalizingly
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:02
|
|
|
Algund Eenboom posted:Doing leftism, responsibilizationalizingly 'Responsibilization' is a term developed in the governmentality literature to refer to the process whereby subjects are rendered individually responsible for a task which previously would have been the duty of another – usually a state agency – or would not have been recognized as a responsibility at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:03
|
|
|
governmentality
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:04
|
|
|
hyperresponsibilization
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:23
|
|
|
jarofpiss posted:'Responsibilization' is a term developed in the governmentality literature to refer to the process whereby subjects are rendered individually responsible for a task which previously would have been the duty of another – usually a state agency – or would not have been recognized as a responsibility at all. i mean, it works as a concept even if it's a mouthful of a term for what is essentially 'bullshit' for something like voting registration though it's easier to just call it disenfranchisement idk
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:25
|
|
|
smarxist posted:i mean, it works as a concept even if it's a mouthful of a term for what is essentially 'bullshit' that was the first google result and then i googled governmentality and i saw some stuff about focault and then i noped out because i'm not doing that on friday night
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:32
|
|
|
this article is 10000% how I feel about the issue of voting in this election https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/08/27/harm-reduction-voting-vs-independent-working-class-politics/
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 01:59
|
|
|
one of the few advantages of living in a red state is that i can not vote simply on the heuristic of drunkenly taking an internet oath
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:01
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:this article is 10000% how I feel about the issue of voting in this election https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/08/27/harm-reduction-voting-vs-independent-working-class-politics/ I disagree that AOC (and probably not the DSA either) could build a new working class party on a national scale, but agree with pretty much everything else
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:11
|
|
|
indigi posted:I disagree that AOC (and probably not the DSA either) could build a new working class party on a national scale, but agree with pretty much everything else I think such a party would at least have the dsa as a major component. if not then what organizations or movements right now would you see that would from the core for that kind of party?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:19
|
|
|
oh I for sure think they'd be part of it (or technically their membership would I guess), it just doesn't seem like what they're interested in doing
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:24
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:this article is 10000% how I feel about the issue of voting in this election https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/08/27/harm-reduction-voting-vs-independent-working-class-politics/ my criticism of this is i don't think it really makes sense to dump finite energy and resources into an inevitably doomed campaign like howie hawkins. i think having the win is actually important because losing is demotivating for the base, and one of our primary goals organizing for a mass worker party is showing people that we can win when we work collectively. one of the major reasons i wouldn't want dsa to endorse howie is that it's obligating resources that we should be spending on campaigns that have a chance of achieving a victory of some sort. this isn't to say there isn't ground to gain when a campaign loses, but i don't think we should embark on campaigns we know cannot win. i think this is my primary disagreement with the folks i know from SA. i really think we gotta kill the democratic party before a worker's party is possible, and i think it ultimately stifles growth when everyone knows a third party win is impossible at this stage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:24
|
|
|
indigi posted:oh I for sure think they'd be part of it (or technically their membership would I guess), it just doesn't seem like what they're interested in doing most dsa thinks that the workers party must burst forth from the chest of the democratic party like a rose shaped alien thereby killing the host in the process this is also the rank and file strategy within the large unions in this country (but maybe not killing the host im not sure)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:28
|
|
|
jarofpiss posted:most dsa thinks that the workers party must burst forth from the chest of the democratic party like a rose shaped alien thereby killing the host in the process which is never going to happen
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
my DSA local is maybe or maybe not going to look at starting a state party this year e: the looking is this year, not the starting
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:33
|
|
|
indigi posted:which is never going to happen a lot of local dem politics are extremely vulnerable to entryism like this. i think this last primary had a lot to teach about that strategy on the national level. i don't know what a third party offers on the national level other than that elizabeth warren "she's electable if you vote for her" bumper sticker right now. i really am much more interested in how that strategy could work in existing union structures though
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
looks like the greens had 319k registered members at their height. i think dsa punches above its membership weight compared to the greens (because it's not solely electoral based work) but i'd still think it needs to be a hell of a lot larger before we start thinking workers party national campaigns
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
something larger than what DSA is begging to be born, but it's probably not a national worker's party yet it could just be a push to have a national coalition that cooperates on messaging and organizational response to state/local fuckery and draw more people into the struggle by responding to their immediate material needs, like assistance with eviction proceedings, unemployment issues, COVID relief/response, etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 02:46
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Johnny_suputama/status/1317252198133354497?s=19
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 04:22
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Johnny_suputama/status/1317252198133354497?s=19 efb 
Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Oct 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 04:29
|
|
|
*tap tap tap* there is a door sir
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 04:53
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Johnny_suputama/status/1317252198133354497
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 04:54
|
|
|
This is some amazingly comedic footage: today, over 100 police officers raided the Tokyo headquarters of an ultra-leftist group.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 05:37
|
|
|
I’m a personal fan of the raidee being the one doing temperature checks to determine which pigs get to carry out the warrant
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 05:46
|
|
|
Good ole mass media, same as it ever was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gF7a7wbbJ4
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 11:28
|
|
|
indigi posted:oh I for sure think they'd be part of it (or technically their membership would I guess), it just doesn't seem like what they're interested in doing There are at least 2 factions in DSA who want this to happen, not all of which are attached to the same or even any "break with the Dems" strategy. Edit: Something I see a lot in outside perspectives on DSA from the left is an implicit assumption of some kind of programmatic unity, as if it were operating on some version of demcent and so when some individual member or chapter or caucus of DSA says something, that's taken to be "what DSA thinks." Sometimes this happens because a particular tendency has a loud voice and a big platform, but they don't necessarily represent the org as a whole. This isn't even true of the national org, there have been incidents where the national coms platform is putting out stuff that's out of line with the actual resolutions of the Convention. Which is something that perhaps one could critique in itself, but the fact is that there's very little programmatic or policy unity in the org as a whole. For example, "rank and file strategy" is something that not all members or caucuses agree on, although it is something the Convention (in a close vote) resolved to support. The Convention also adopted some other labor strategies as well, though. And it's not clear that DSA even has the capacity to really work on any of them.... whoever said that DSA trying to run national campaigns is reach exceeding grasp is correct and I wish everyone who wanted to throw mountains of resources and time into the Bernie campaign had understood that. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Oct 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 12:29
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:There are at least 2 factions in DSA who want this to happen, not all of which are attached to the same or even any "break with the Dems" strategy. i still think the bernie campaign was a good idea given his election didn't hinge on dsa's capacity and really the focus was on using the campaign to grow the org (even though he lost).
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:07
|
|
|
jarofpiss posted:i still think the bernie campaign was a good idea given his election didn't hinge on dsa's capacity and really the focus was on using the campaign to grow the org (even though he lost). Did it work to grow the org though?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:11
|
|
|
jarofpiss posted:i still think the bernie campaign was a good idea given his election didn't hinge on dsa's capacity and really the focus was on using the campaign to grow the org (even though he lost). There were aspects of it that were good ideas, but you got some very lib "If you're not phonebanking for Bernie you're phonebanking for Trump!" poo poo at times, as if DSA could be critical to Sanders winning (lol) and therefore working towards that was a moral obligation because him becoming president was our last shot at the survival of human civilization (lmao). For me it wasn't so much "don't engage with Sanders' campaign at all," it's just a question of degree.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:15
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:Did it work to grow the org though? an important question
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:22
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:Did it work to grow the org though? the orgs growin', lobe.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:29
|
|
|
think the biggest criticism you could level at DSA about the bernie work but really not even the DSA just the jacobin wing, is that 100% they did NOT prepare people for the inevitable betrayal that he or the DNC (or both as it turned out) would pull. we constantly had discussions and convos about like, yeah even if sanders is a real door opening the DNC will not allow it to happen without a fight, and even if he wins he is ultimately a social democrat and so when rubber meets the road there is always the chance that he will betray whatever social movements exist. basically jacobin and that wing of the left really sewed a lot of illusions in sanders and the campaign the best example being that "its bernies party now!" article published like a couple weeks before he dropped out lol. they didnt prepare people at all for what happens when/if he loses and so it led to a disorienting effect on the movement, so now people with no clear perspectives are left to just tail the bernie movement which leads to supporting biden. its why jacobin is still publishing so many triumphalist articles about bernie even now after all this time since his defeat
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 13:55
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:Did it work to grow the org though? absolutely. there was a lot of crossover of dsa membership and staff on the bernie campaign and during his concession speech he even mentioned joining dsa by name. we saw a lot of success and growth that came out of dsa being identified with the bernie campaign in that way, and i think it was a pretty good application of resources and energy overall
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 14:52
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:think the biggest criticism you could level at DSA about the bernie work but really not even the DSA just the jacobin wing, is that 100% they did NOT prepare people for the inevitable betrayal that he or the DNC (or both as it turned out) would pull. we constantly had discussions and convos about like, yeah even if sanders is a real door opening the DNC will not allow it to happen without a fight, and even if he wins he is ultimately a social democrat and so when rubber meets the road there is always the chance that he will betray whatever social movements exist. basically jacobin and that wing of the left really sewed a lot of illusions in sanders and the campaign the best example being that "its bernies party now!" article published like a couple weeks before he dropped out lol. they didnt prepare people at all for what happens when/if he loses and so it led to a disorienting effect on the movement, so now people with no clear perspectives are left to just tail the bernie movement which leads to supporting biden. its why jacobin is still publishing so many triumphalist articles about bernie even now after all this time since his defeat i think that's fair but i'm more sympathetic to it because it really looked like a winnable campaign for a while. preparing new socialists to face the grind of defeat is probably important, but i don't know if you can effectively organize around a cynical message tbh. this kind of ties in to what i was saying about third party candidates needing to be feasible to be useful campaigns to organize around. the idea is that when we work collectively, we win, and that's tough to sell if we set out on doomed projects. your criticisms are reasonable but im not sure i agree that it should be in the messaging. part of this to me is that you go in and earnestly work to win, and believe you can, and if you fail you pull yourself together and move on to the next thing that might work. not saying you are campaigning on losing messaging or anything, it just kinda feels cynical to organize around a candidate with the expectation that they'll betray you. not that you're even wrong about that, but seems hard to get people to join up with that kind of outlook. tell me if i'm misunderstanding your point here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:Did it work to grow the org though?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 15:03
|
|
|
DSA has proven surprisingly resilient, when it first started blowing up in 16, I was pretty close to the ground with everyone else in the Extremely Online Left and it had seemed like Fetontegate and all the toxic poo poo that would bubble up onto twitter/slack indicated that it wasn't prepared for the influx of prominence/members and wasn't doing enough to get the right people in charge, so I'm kind of pleasantly surprised to see how far it has come and to have learned how many great locals there are doing the real work, national is still national but it's not overly hampering what's happening on the ground
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 15:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 10:56 |
|
|
some of this makes me wonder how much of a left movement is dependent on learning from experiencing the same mistakes previous movements made. i know we talk about looking at past movements and avoiding their pitfalls, but it also seems like people aren't abandoning the democrats in droves to join up with communist movements no matter how much pointing to historical parallels is done. i think the disillusionment on a collective scale that brings radicalization probably comes from experience and not being told it's gonna happen so you can skip the heartache. this isn't to say you don't prepare for it but i kind of look at things like the occupy movement and the bernie campaign as necessary milestones for people to actually be able to see the existing contradictions. watching the dnc solidify to ratfuck bernie is something most people had to see happen, not just be told it was gonna happen. that's why i think the movements have to go through these growing pains in earnest, because i haven't seen that you can sidestep them
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 15:12
|
|