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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the one thing that Tyranny is missing from its examination of evil is the role of the sycophant I think this is where the allegory bumps up against the narrative and causes a mild clash. Thus far, it's been shown that Kyros, unlike most tyrants, does value competence. Everyone he directly employs is very, very good at their job (or, more accurately, they consistently get results, even if they aren't as efficient as they could be), the Archons supernaturally so. This is why it's vitally important to keep in mind that 99% of what kept the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus from crushing the rebels was their own petty conflict, engineered by Kyros herself, and it would have been over ages ago had either group been there by themselves. Also, it's more or less impossible for someone with a sycophantic or cowardly personality to become an Archon, for reasons that will be explained later. Some manner of determination or ambition is a hard requirement. By the way, the Court of Tunon is not "two Archons", it's "one Archon, and another Archon who is subordinate to that Archon". They're not equals, by any means. Bleden Mark is to Tunon what Sirin is to Nerat, and what Cairn was (sort of, it's more complicated there since Cairn is older and Ashe is less trusted) to Ashe.
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Oct 16, 2020 05:54
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There are plenty of Archons who aren't anywhere near the Tiers, as well. The Tiers are literally the edge of the world, the last place anyone goes and the last place to be conquered. The epic battles are long past, and this whole campaign is a footnote.
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Oct 16, 2020 06:10
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Deadmeat5150 posted:I never pay attention to critics, some actually thought this game was supposed to be a power fantasy? God the entire game is the Fatebinder stumbling from crisis to crisis like a drunk at a Christmas party and somehow managing to fail upwards. A lot of the initial marketing and banner ads were like that, suggesting you were sort of going to be like a Darth Vader to the Emperor; or at least the baddie equivalent of a Spectre from Mass Effect. Which, kind of, you are; but with the additional troubles of tyranny that you don't often get to see in the Star Wars movies.
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Oct 16, 2020 06:14
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:The only thing Kyros can offer is the power to abuse others, conditional on remaining subservient to Kyros. This is a very interesting point because it's the entire reward system and method that the Fatebinders are controlled by. Also a great demonstration of how little power the Empire actually has. In theory, on paper, a Fatebinder that isn't in Kyros' presence or at Tunon's Court is automatically the ultimate authority of wherever he or she is. Tunon only answers to Kyros. A fatebinder is only actually obliged to answer to Tunon. And Tunon only cares that you can make a decently logical argument that there's a law that backs up your decisions. One of the laws being (summarized): "Any official ruling made by a Fatebinder is final, correct, unappealable, and carries the weight of Tunon's authority, which carries the weight of Kyros' authority on all matters of the law." Which is great for cowing peasants or bullying nameless merchants and minor soldiers, but guess how well the system works when applied to anyone that actually has any power. Either political, or the "No, I think I'll stab you in the face instead" kind of power.
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Oct 16, 2020 06:14
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In theory Tunon could overrule a Fatebinder's decision on something, but in practice he wouldn't because that would undercut the authority of all his other fatebinders and make it so their decisions could be questioned. He'll find a way to live with whatever gets said, then make the fatebinder who proclaimed something stupid really, really regret it.
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Oct 16, 2020 06:19
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wiegieman posted:There are plenty of Archons who aren't anywhere near the Tiers, as well. The Tiers are literally the edge of the world, the last place anyone goes and the last place to be conquered. The epic battles are long past, and this whole campaign is a footnote. which is part of why I think the game would have profited from having the sycophant in there, as an example of what someone who's powerful under the Overlord in peaceful territory looks like. there is always the lingering suspicion that no, really, the empire only looks bad on the edges, where all the looting is being done, if you really want to judge it you should look at the imperial core! enter our new friend, competent. effective. beloved. as long as you remember that his job is not "administrate justly" or "increase production," it's "keep the peasants from bugging me." this is what Kyros wants to kill all these fuckups to replace them with: this is the kinder, gentler blight upon the land, that only has to massacre rebellious serfs once every few years as opposed to once every few months, slowly and gently sapping the life from all that surrounds him with kind words, a deaf ear, and a violet miasma that makes it hard to stay on your feet. for bonus points for you can give him and Ashe history, because Ashe held out, while he gleefully and eagerly switched sides. All eventually falls into nothingness... why not be sure that the fall will be comfortable? the Rebellion side gives you a healthy taste of aristocrats being stupid petty assholes who would sooner die than forsake their petty feuds on behalf of a common good, but the game could have used the reminder that Kyros' tyranny and a decadant lovely aristocracy are by no means antithetical
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Oct 16, 2020 06:43
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:which is part of why I think the game would have profited from having the sycophant in there, as an example of what someone who's powerful under the Overlord in peaceful territory looks like. there is always the lingering suspicion that no, really, the empire only looks bad on the edges, where all the looting is being done, if you really want to judge it you should look at the imperial core! enter our new friend, competent. effective. beloved. as long as you remember that his job is not "administrate justly" or "increase production," it's "keep the peasants from bugging me."
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Oct 16, 2020 06:51
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JT Jag posted:I'm imagining this Archon basically just being Vauthry from FF14 i was thinking more skeletal, but the Stupidly Large Baby aesthetic is also powerful
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Oct 16, 2020 06:58
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Tunon's court is not two Archons, it is a Judge+Jury Archon and an auxiliary Executioner Archon... We picked a path where we will be working with the Executioner, so that will be fun  Also will we see Tunon's backstory in this playthrough? In other paths you can get it at this point, as you have chat with him about the traitorous Archons, but we won't be doing that... the reason I am asking is that he is a second in command of the whole empire, and you could argue that he is the one exception to this TheGreatEvilKing posted:Even if some highly capable individual came into the conquest with a belief that Kyros brings unity, prosperity, and peace, they too get pulled into the power struggle and have to fight for power just to stay alive. as he is definitely a true believer, and outside of the conflict (because he is already powerful enough )Tunon (only seen on other paths I think) spoiler: I wouldn't call him a loyalist though, as he is more devoted to Kyros's Law as he understands it, than he is to Kyros. If you convince him that serving Kyros does not help him fulfill the ideals of Kyros's Law, he will instead serve you Otherwise I fully agree with the postmortem, and it is why I dislike the biggest post-release patch change: (ending spoilers) In the released version, you couldn't remain a Kyros loyalist. You could only pick who (if anyone) backed you in your conflict to how you came into the conflict with Kyros. I think this worked really well to fuel the narrative of "the empire's armies need a war to justify themselves, so Kyros manufactured a new enemy" that we already got glimpses of. After the first patch, you can remain a Kyros loyalist and suddenly there is peace and there are no more problems.
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Oct 16, 2020 06:58
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Xarn posted:Otherwise I fully agree with the postmortem, and it is why I dislike the biggest post-release patch change: (ending spoilers) In the released version, you couldn't remain a Kyros loyalist. You could only pick who (if anyone) backed you in your conflict to how you came into the conflict with Kyros. I think this worked really well to fuel the narrative of "the empire's armies need a war to justify themselves, so Kyros manufactured a new enemy" that we already got glimpses of. After the first patch, you can remain a Kyros loyalist and suddenly there is peace and there are no more problems. The Bootlicker Ending makes sense because Kyros didn't plan any of what happens after Vendrien's Well, and the non-loyalist endings are in fact Kyros' worst-case doomsday scenario. I'll elaborate when the explanation and my theories pertaining to it are not massive spoilers for the rest of the game. I'm actually going to ask that maybe we put a little moratorium on spoilers-under-tags, at least until we're about halfway through Act II. Like, we're all here trying to talk about poo poo from the last third of the game when the game's barely even started.
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Oct 16, 2020 07:17
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When I do the surrender to Kyros thing, it's not out of any particular loyalty. The full intention is to be the epitome of every rear end in a top hat vassal ever in CK2. Eat the empire from the inside, then start a civil war with a power base that's not the rump end of gently caress-nowhere fresh out of being devastated by subjugation then devastated by civil war. Ah, moratorium. That's what I get for not previewing.
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Oct 16, 2020 07:19
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Complications posted:When I do the surrender to Kyros thing, it's not out of any particular loyalty. The full intention is to be the epitome of every rear end in a top hat vassal ever in CK2. Eat the empire from the inside, then start a civil war with a power base that's not the rump end of gently caress-nowhere fresh out of being devastated by subjugation then devastated by civil war. Hey, don't mind me, I'm not a mod or anything, I was just making a request for the sake of those who haven't played yet (can't imagine it's much fun to navigate the tags), and also because even with spoiler tags I'm not 100% comfortable getting into full detail with some of my takes until the relevant parts of the game have been posted.
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Oct 16, 2020 07:27
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Deadmeat5150 posted:I never pay attention to critics, some actually thought this game was supposed to be a power fantasy? God the entire game is the Fatebinder stumbling from crisis to crisis like a drunk at a Christmas party and somehow managing to fail upwards. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 12:15
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I'm gonna ask for the moratorium on Act III spoilers for a bit. We will get there.
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Oct 16, 2020 16:01
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anilEhilated posted:I suspect most of them sided with rebels and didn't think too hard about the power dynamics. Almost no one sides with the rebels on a blind first run, there are just too many conversation choices in Act 1 that will lock you out of it. See the goonmind doing it in this thread without really trying, and they even knew that the option existed (which is far from obvious playing the game blind). My guess would be that a majority ended up siding with the Disfavored as the on-the-face-of-it lesser evil. The steam achievement statistics put the Act 3 completion stats at Disfavored 7.8%, Anarchy 4.6%, Chorus 3.3% and Rebel 3.1%. Likely the Act 1 first playthrough stats skew considerably harder towards the Disfavored.
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Oct 16, 2020 18:45
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Xerophyte posted:My guess would be that a majority ended up siding with the Disfavored as the on-the-face-of-it lesser evil. The steam achievement statistics put the Act 3 completion stats at Disfavored 7.8%, Anarchy 4.6%, Chorus 3.3% and Rebel 3.1%. Likely the Act 1 first playthrough stats skew considerably harder towards the Disfavored. This was what I did my first run. The Chorus and Nerat were so obviously psychotic, and the rebel route of grabbing power for yourself seemed like an arguably worse option, so I went with the Disfavored thinking it would be less brutal.
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Oct 16, 2020 19:02
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Ashe and co look really good on the surface. All of the show mercy to enemies (like releasing the captain or becoming the Peacebinder) options in Conquest are Disfavored aligned. Ashe initially comes across as a guy who really cares about his men and downplays most of the stuff about "mongrels" and he seems to value the advice of his subordinates. He's a family man and Nerat comes across as an obviously unstable fucker so when Ashe goes "Nerat is fuckin nuts" you're inclined to agree with him. The Rebel path requires you to really go out on a limb to show mercy, which is something the game makes very clear you're playing with fire.
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Oct 16, 2020 19:33
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I can confirm that I went with Ashe on my first run on the grounds that he wasn't a psychotic soul eating blood cultist. Sure, he was a racist asshat and his soldiers absolutely bought into it, but it was normal imperial power racism and that's at least something that can be worked with or around. Nerat was fifty one cards short of a fifty two card deck and had openly stabbed Ashe in the family and gently caress if a sane character I'm roleplaying wants to be near that.
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Oct 16, 2020 19:51
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Complications posted:I can confirm that I went with Ashe on my first run on the grounds that he wasn't a psychotic soul eating blood cultist. Sure, he was a racist asshat and his soldiers absolutely bought into it, but it was normal imperial power racism and that's at least something that can be worked with or around. Nerat was fifty one cards short of a fifty two card deck and had openly stabbed Ashe in the family and gently caress if a sane character I'm roleplaying wants to be near that. Interesting. I went with the Chorus for my first playthrough if only because Ashe seemed positively BORING in comparison for the game experience as assumed at the start of the game.
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Oct 16, 2020 22:03
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Complications posted:I can confirm that I went with Ashe on my first run on the grounds that he wasn't a psychotic soul eating blood cultist. Sure, he was a racist asshat and his soldiers absolutely bought into it, but it was normal imperial power racism and that's at least something that can be worked with or around. Nerat was fifty one cards short of a fifty two card deck and had openly stabbed Ashe in the family and gently caress if a sane character I'm roleplaying wants to be near that. Pretty much my first playthrough to a t.
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Oct 16, 2020 22:27
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Weird. My first playthrough was easily rebel because I was trying to do the standard talk-everyone-down-for-most-XP RPG protagonist and was pleasantly surprised I could turn my back on the Evil Empire. Wasn't even aware of how simple it (apparently) is to get locked out of that path.
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Oct 16, 2020 22:31
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I went Chorus the first time, suspecting there was a rebel path but electing not to chase it on my first playthrough. I have never even attempted to side with the Disfavored, not so much because I consider them to be uniquely abhorrent as because I can only imagine it to be the most boring path by far.
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Oct 16, 2020 23:12
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The Chorus path made me feel... dirty.
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Oct 17, 2020 01:50
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Cleopatra Jones and the Deluded Archon Last time we left Cleopatra, she had gotten herself in a spot of legal trouble after betraying everyone and kicking the Iron Marshal of the Disfavored off of her cool new magic tower.  There was a lot of discussion about Tunon and his backstory in the thread, so let's chat him up and see what he has to say, shall we?  As you might guess, this conversation is kind of a minefield where if you ask about the wrong things it pisses Tunon off. Do not ask about Kyros. Do not ask about the mask.  : I'm curious about you, Archon. : Curiosity is not a trait that I encourage in my servants. Too often have I witnessed such activity leading down a path to lawlessness. : Tell me about your rise to become Adjudicator. : [Lore 58] I wish to understand law, and your execution of it. : I came into the world centuries ago - before the dream of a unified Northern Empire was fully realized. My home country lay far from the borders of Kyros' realm, and our conquest was a matter of distant speculation.: Decades before rumor of Kyros' approach grew in panicked volume, I familiarized myself with the intricacies of her law. It took me no time at all to realize the benefits of our inevitable subjugation. : Go on.: What my countrymen could not have surmised was that I had woven into our customs the very backbone of Kyros' law. I set the stage for the conquest of our floundering nation to join the Overlord's empire.: By the time the Overlord's armies presented themselves and offered terms of surrender, we had adopted Kyros' Peace in all but name. Our absorption into the Northern Empire was a matter of legal formality - negligible changes to our already beloved document of law.Tunon, unlike virtually everyone else in the game, is a true believer. : The people credited me as the architect of peace, and for a time called me Tunon the Fair. As my importance grew in their estimate, Kyros could not help but learn of the part I played in her bloodless victory.Interestingly, Tunon consistently refers to Kyros as a woman.  : What does it mean to be an Archon? Tunon believes that his laws elevate society and believes wholeheartedly in Kyros' wisdom in creating these laws. Of course, Tunon is the one person who has basically won the power struggle and is quite possibly the only person in the Empire who is loyal to Kyros for reasons other than desiring power. Tunon can afford to rule in favor of the less powerful because he has the power to strike down any Archon. Tunon doesn't want power. His entire story is that he was inspired by Kyros laws and wrote good laws that people liked, and then Kyros showed up and he voluntarily surrendered power. : Could anyone become an Archon?: Absolutely not. Only a precious few grow into this authority. Were it otherwise, Terratus would descend into pandemonium. : Is every Archon subservient to Kyros? Huh. I wonder if that has anything to do with why Bleden Mark is sending us secret messages? Probably not. Anyway, back to the main stack of questions.  : Did you come up with the office of Fatebinders?: Indirectly, yes. Just as I am the representative of Kyros' law across Terratus, you are the face of my judgment for the people. I took inspiration from the Overlord's example, as we all should.People in the thread were asking where all the useless sycophants were. Everyone in Kyros' empire kisses rear end. This has the net effect of diluting the effectiveness of brown-nosing as a defensive mechanism (remember, Nerat tried to flatter us when we first met) because there's no way you can trust that the guy singing your praises isn't going to slit your throat.  : Why is curiosity such a problem?: Because my vassals are not selected for their independence of thought. You are an agent of law, the execution of which falls within strict confines. : [Lore 58] Don't you want me to interpret Kyros' laws to fit any circumstance? This is Tyranny so everything is subtly self-destructive. To interpret the law, you need intelligent and hardworking people. There's a reason lawyers are held to high standards and have to get postgraduate degrees, you need to be able to be able to comprehend the law, and of course curiosity is needed for any kind of investigation. Why did he do that? What kind of weapon makes the wounds on the victim? Is that alibi for real, and does the defendant know what he's talking about, or is he hiding behind bullshit trying to obfuscate? Who are these people trying to start a rebellion, and how can we ensure it doesn't happen again? Thus the trap is set. By inviting intelligent and curious people in to run things, but punishing them when they realize that everything is being run inefficiently and they want to offer suggestions - what if we allowed everyone to join the Disfavored, and had a huge ironclad army instead of a small one run by someone people liked? - they fall into the trap and are destroyed. : What happened to those pupils?: Anyone who oversteps their bounds is given the opportunity to amend their ways. Those who fail to heed my warnings show contempt for Kyros' Peace, and are treated accordingly. Back to the previous questions! DO NOT ASK ABOUT THE MASK IF YOU WANT TUNON TO LIKE YOU!  Let's ask about Bleden Mark. We should know who we're meeting with. : Tell me about Bleden Mark. That last sentence is very revealing. Tunon is the Archon of Justice and he expresses it through retributive law. : How did he earn his title?: His work away from the court takes Bleden Mark to the dark places of the world - the Tiers and Northern Empire alike. Over time, shadows became his dominion. They cloak him, protect him, and even fight for him if the need arises. : Does Bleden Mark serve you alone?: Your question is flawed. We are all servants of Kyros. The Archons are also agents of their own interests - those chosen few empowered to bring order to the world in accordance with Kyros' Peace.Kyros' Peace keeps coming up quite a bit in Tunon's justifications for the law. It's a point of personal pride - he keeps Kyros' Peace, he spent his lifetime setting things up so he could bring peace to his homeland, and he proudly views carrying out the Peace as his life's work. If you've been paying attention to the LP, you'll remember what the Iron Marshal said: Earlier in the game posted:Kyros' Peace is a lie. Tunon doesn't know! In our great "who's who" of the followers of tyrants, Tunon is the guy who heard the good things the tyrant was promising and decided that it was going to be his life's work to bring these good things to the people. He's perfectly situated for it, as he keeps himself company with the powerful, sends the Fatebinders out to go deal with the little guy, and then gets pissed when the people he recruited for their intelligence inform him that things aren't quite working on the ground. Tunon is without question the most honest character in the game - he will not lie or dissemble with you, but it's an open question whether or not he believes himself.   He doesn't know! He doesn't know he's being used as a sham to prop up the pursuit of power and harsh examples on the enemies of the Empire or that the entire peace and order is a lie to be tossed aside when someone has a criticism of the system. Look at his sprite - the darkness is literally seeping out through the mask. Back to the questions screen.  : I wish to speak about matters of law.: Then you are well-situated, for my Court is the legal heart of this corrupt and uncivilized realm. This is kind of a clumsy "as you know" way to dump all the laws and they really should have just had a section in the player journal or something. That said, Tunon can provide exact phrasing and clarity around a few matters. : I wish to discuss Kyros' Peace. This might raise some eyebrows given Tunon's origin imposing Kyros' Peace on his homeland without mentioning Kyros at all.  Now hang on a minute, the law has a few other ramifications that we didn't cover, such as an implied protection against pogroms and genocide (you cannot purge all the X because the overlord has plans for X, but you can enslave them) and for the Bronze Age this is insanely generous. It's easy to see why Tunon living in some crappy prehistoric state might go "wow, everyone has a right to life! This Kyros girl seems like a real humanitarian, I'm gonna model these laws after her and maybe get her number so I can show her my gavel." Bonus points for the penalty for violating Kyros' Peace being death and the law prohibiting suicides. : Remind me how the Overlord's name may be used.: It is not forbidden to cross one's tongue with Kyros' name, but it behooves one to use caution and respect.: The Overlord's name is not yours to give - whether to progeny, product, location, or abstraction. Slander of the Overlord is punishable by death.: There is only one Kyros, and her name is safeguarded. No one may say 'Kyros' and have it obfuscated by a second meaning. : Let us discuss the Oldwalls. : As the Oldwalls extend across much of the Tiers and Northern Empire alike, Kyros permits her servants to pass only where she has sculpted the landscape to permit traverse.: Under no circumstances are you to enter a breach in the Oldwalls, even for a task as innocent as crossing to the other side. The Oldwalls are home to monsters called Bane, which we saw in our spire vision. They are legitimately dangerous. It all comes back to Tunon being blind again - he thinks he is enforcing good laws that maintain a just peace by the will of an Overlord who may make some hard choices but ultimately wants people to care about each other and earn glory. Kyros is riding this conviction all the way to the mass execution of everyone she doesn't like. : Remind me of the Magician's Folly.: Practitioners of the arcane arts must be sanctioned by one of Kyros' guilds, such as the Blood Chanters or Forge-bound. Rogue magicians with a tenuous grasp of unknown powers will not be tolerated. : Your orphaned mage there is covered by the aegis of the Blood Chanters Guild. When you consigned the Elders of the School to their fate, all of her tradition are now, in the eyes of the law, Blood Chanters. This is of course completely absurd. Eb's magic focuses on using water and stealing life from enemies to heal her. The magic of the Blood Chanters focuses on using fire and hurting themselves to empower their spells (a sigil I failed to acquire from Fifth Eye, alas). Eb and any other rogue Tidecasters as a practical matter do not answer to Nerat, Eb's killed her fair share of Chorus members at this point. Instead of going with the logical route (the Fatebinders are a magic guild, Eb is sworn to Cleopatra so is part of the guild) we see the sheer absurdity of interpreting Kyros' laws 100% as written without the application of common sense or judicial review.  : Let us speak of quotas and sharing.: The harvest blooms and blights by the will of Kyros. In times of lean, you will be fed. In times of wealth, you will feed others. He doesn't get it.  He really, really doesn't get it.  At the risk of turning the thread political, the history of forced collectivization is one of failure and sadness. Look at Stalin's misadventures in Ukraine, and this is probably the worst way to handle it, because the way it's phrased is that the Overlord decided to screw you personally by blighting that other guy's crops so you have to share all the tomatoes you were hoping to sell to get a new chicken coop. This is the Bronze Age and the vast majority of people are subsistence farmers. They can't afford to give away huge amounts of crops! There is no agricultural revolution like we have today where you can grow tons of food and eat daily cheeseburgers, these people are on the brink of starvation! Because Kyros is still obsessed with promoting her own infallibility, she has to set herself up for the crop failures instead of just acknowledging that there are still some laws of nature she can't control - but it also sows discord at the local level. If Billy the dumbass farmer loses his entire farm in a game of cards, now all the other farmers hate Billy for eating their food for free. More importantly for our purposes is the trade restriction. We don't know who the regional authority is, but it's not Tunon and Tunon essentially told us that he has to abide by their decision. In Tunon happy land, this is to set up efficient distribution of goods so that all the starving people get free food from Kyros. In the real world we live in, this basically lets the regional Archon hold every single merchant hostage, secure free poo poo by threatening to revoke their trade license, and create lucrative business opportunities for their friends. It's yet another way Kyros is able to reward followers with more power - if Nerat wins, he's not just a flaming rear end in a top hat, he's a flaming rear end in a top hat who can milk the Tiers for piles and piles of free money. : I'm curious about the restriction on forbidden knowledge.: Kyros herself sets the standards of what can and cannot be known. These restrictions are rarely enforced, but they are worth taking into account.: During the war, for example, Kyros deemed the knowledge of the Vellum Citadel taboo. No one may possess the wisdom of that fallen repository, save Kyros herself. Here the game's insistence on the Bronze Age tries to bite it in the rear end. You can buy poison at the supermarket. Nobody cares. The knowledge of how to force bronze is not going to let you find a tin mine any faster. This is a setting with literal magic, just talk about big explosions or something.  This is pretty obviously supposed to be an analogue to nuclear arms control in the real world with the corollary that it can be applied to censor anything Kyros drat well pleases. I am pretty sure asking if you have to follow the law gets you a verbal beating so we will finish off this incredibly long interview with Tunon. One more set of questions.  : I have a request from Barik of the Stone Shields. : He came to inquire if the Forge-Bound could help remove his armor.: If he has become encased in iron, that is none of the Court's concern. My Forge-Bound smiths are occupied crafting weapons for the army, and I would not have their focus diverted to liberate one soldier from his raiment.  Surprisingly bold!  This is the difficulty of interpreting the law that Tunon alluded to earlier. Right now we have the contradiction that Barik is unjustly fused into his armor and is a loyal servant of the Overlord...but it happened during the Edict of Storms, which was of course the infallible will of the Overlord. Thus the delay isn't simply a matter of "insert question, execute law" but Tunon's internal construction of sky castles that makes the entire legal system function.  The default answer, of course, is that the Overlord is infallible, so we get to rationalize Barik being encased in his own poo poo for eternity with this bullshit special plead about how incomprehensible a big fuckoff lightning storm is.  Now, we could ask Tunon to reconsider, but that just gets us yelled at for sentimentality and wrath with Tunon, and we don't want that. : [Say nothing]This is the one time saying nothing to Tunon is the right answer.  Sorry Barik.  : I have no more questions.: Then be on your way.The Great Evil King summary posted:
 We got a TON of favor with Tunon for that conversation. Tunon is, in my opinion, the most fascinating character in the game. It's clear he's an idealist instead of a power-hungry maniac and he truly believes Kyros' laws are there to end hunger and save lives - and we don't know what's going on under that mask. We know he originally joined Kyros not because he was forced to at swordpoint or because he wanted to ride Kyros' coattails to power, but because he genuinely believed that the law had the power to help people and that Kyros had some good ideas. It's tragic, in a way. But wait, there's more!  These three guys are more of Tunon's Fatebinders. They can shed a bit more light on what's going on.  Us getting Apex to surrender peacefully no doubt reminds Tunon of his origins.  : How were you singled out to become a Fatebinder? : Why burn the bodies? : Why was it a crime? The thread was asking about religion, we can surmise that Kyros wiped it out so that the only thing to worship would be her. : It's a good thing Tunon spared you. : Let's talk about something else. : I'm curious about Tunon's masks. : They can be rather unsettling, can't they? Even to one such as me. But I can assure you - the innocent need not fear their objective, emotionless gaze. : I want to know about the Silent Face. : I want to know about the Face of Resolve. : I want to know about the Face-That-Is-No-More. Now this is interesting. The Silent Face is judging mode, the Resolve Face is war mode...what was that last face? Symbolically this represents Kyros and her tyranny warping the personality of a once just man. : Have you ever seen Tunon change his masks?  In other words, Tunon is only deluding himself when he claims to render impartial judgement.  : I would hear of your past victories in the war or of recent events.: Have you not yet tired of my tales, Cleopatra Jones? I do admit I never tire of telling them. He laughs, hearty and deep.: Very well then, let me champion the feats of my conquest. Let the glory of Kyros' reign fall on any ears that would hear of it. Had we gone to Stalwart we would have pronounced this. Notice that the Disfavored get the poo poo end of the stick constantly. We might revisit this later. : Farewell.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Next Fatebinder.   : Has anything happened while I was away? : You seem to know much of my actions. Have you been spying on me? : Of course. I've nothing to hide. : How have you occupied your time in the Bastard City?  Calio, like Cleopatra, has just enough power to see what needs to be done but not enough to actually do it. She is very self-aware. : I'd like to know more about Tunon. : Tunon is our Overlord's fair and exacting Adjudicator. He speaks with the voice of Kyros' law, and his word is judgment. As much as I rag on Tunon for being a deluded idealist, the man actually does try to treat the Fatebinders right. Tunon's story is literally a tragedy. : I have some concerns about the war. : Our armies squabble at each other's throats... Divided, we cannot win. We could give a safe answer, but I know the answer the thread wants me to give. : Neither. They're both at fault, and equally inept. : You misunderstand my intent.Something I'm noticing rereading this conversation is that Calio is an intelligent and capable woman who is squandered getting idiots out of basements and she would be equally as qualified to lead the armies as Cleo. There could be multiple reasons for her displeasure other than our perceived arrogance. Unfortunately, we can't give the answer of "Tunon is really powerful and not an idiot, give him the armies." Oh well.  Calio, of course, has seen all the ambitious Fatebinders that Tunon talked about earlier. : Farewell.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
One last Fatebinder.  I'm cutting this one short, as the theme of this update is Tunon. Well, Tunon and Bleden Mark.  : Tell me about some of the past Archons. The game will unfortunately wander off into fantasy bullshit if left unchecked. : What do you think about the other Fatebinders? : What's your opinion of the Fatebinder of War? : What's your opinion of the Fatebinder of Balance? : What's your opinion of me? That's...kind of harsh. We leave it at that. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Moving on! There is one more NPC we need to talk to to get the full picture of Tunon - at least, as much as we can get without incurring Wrath for now.   : What are all of these nobles doing in Tunon's court? : She smirks and shakes her head. Trying to look brave, I warrant. But if you crane an ear to any of their conversations, you'll hear a different tale.: Three years since Tunon set up shop in the Bastard City. We're still getting used to our new masters, and figuring out what we can and can't ask of them.Lady, Cleopatra has served a lot longer than three years and she still has no idea.  : How has the Bastard City fared since the conquest?: The armies claimed the city in a quieter, more organized manner than I might have expected. I can credit them that much , to be sure.  : What brings a noble like yourself to Tunon's court? : Tell me of yourself.: I'm the daughter of a noble house. We were wealthy enough to live in the city, but our means beyond that were limited. My mother dealt in fish, textiles, and bronze. By the time I inherited, the business was taking care of itself.  Of course, Tunon told us it was the regional authority that made the decisions because it's just another mechanism for power-hungry assholes to loot the empire. : What is Thistlehome? Look how defeated she is.  : What happened?  : So what are you going to do next?  : Kyros' laws are made to serve the masses, not the individual. This all ties back into Tunon as the deluded idealist. The laws help the masses, they must be perfect, and compensating this poor woman for her family's home the family worked for generations to build and take care of can be done with pocket change and a farm she doesn't know how to work outside the safe area of the city. Now, in Tunon's defense farmland is not cheap and land ownership is hugely valuable. but this poor woman is outside the city and vulnerable to Scarlet Chorus raids and god knows what else.  The Lady is wasted as a farmer. : What do you mean?  The word she's looking for is "right". Have you noticed none of the characters discuss anything related to morality? This place is so cut off and lost in Kyros' law and Tunon's delusions that no one knows what is right or wrong. Do you pick up a weapon and fight the Overlord, knowing you cannot win and that your family will probably be killed? Do you collaborate and feed your family at the expense of others? Do you just say gently caress it and run off into the wilderness and pray you don't run into Chorus patrols? Lucretia mentions right and wrong here, but so far she's really the only character we've seen aside from maybe some of the rebels with a defined moral compass. : Kyros defines law. That isn't for either of us to question. We can do nothing to help her. We're on thin ice as it is, and quite frankly, this is a more interesting examination of what one life matters. If we want to change this empire, can we justify risking it all for this woman and letting some horrible monster step up? : Good day, Fatebinder.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
If you're a piece of poo poo you can bait the lady into insulting Kyros and extort money from her. We will not be doing that. Anyway, we have enough material to get a decent picture of Tunon. It's not pretty and it's almost tragic. Tunon is that most dangerous of villains, the deluded idealist who believes that whatever is done in the name of their cause is justified by visions of some utopia. In Tunon's case this utopia is the laws of Kyros and their promise to end hunger and usher in a new era of utopia. Tunon is so in love with this vision and the ideal of Kyros he has constructed in his head that he fails to see what it is in front of him - his beloved laws are a tool for the Archons to steal and kill with impunity, and rather than seeing Ashe and Nerat for the corrupt pieces of poo poo they are he views them as benevolent forces of order elevated by Kyros' wisdom. To this end, Tunon will believe poo poo that is blatantly untrue, like how Kyros controls the harvest or how Eb is a Blood Chanter, because the laws of Kyros are the path to glorious salvation and deliverance from poverty. It is heavily implied by Fatebinder Nunoval that Tunon used to provide real justice to the people of his homeland before Kyros intervened and destroyed a part of him. Take a good look at Tunon's face. Notice anything? There aren't any eye holes! Yes, justice is blind and all that, but Tunon takes it to an entirely new level. He is not capable of seeing the world around him or the actual impact of Kyros' laws on the people of the empire! He truly believes that the laws encourage a happier, kinder world where people care about each other, the Overlord is an unquestioned fount of wisdom and bounty, people are restricted for their own good from scary monsters and bomb-making material, and the Archons are wise guardians who put the people first. When confronted with evidence that the laws are incoherent and contradictory, he solves the problem with a special plead and goes back to ruining people's lives. He recruits the best and brightest from the Empire, only to cast them aside when they propose reforms that would prevent people from looting the place or prove unable to handle the constant doublethink. His recompense for destroying the home of an innocent woman is to toss her outside the city near Scarlet Chorus rapists, and his logic for letting mages do whatever they want "in the service of Kyros" is that it protects the public from abuse of magical power in a game where magic literally cannot hurt allies. I've made a few jokes that Tunon knows Kyros is female and is attracted to her, but he really does seem to have some mental pedestal of Kyros in his head as the great lawgiver and provider that Kyros encourages to distract him from the fact she and her Archons are plundering the Empire dry and squandering its people. This will probably have repercussions down the line later in the game. Oh, one more thing, hold off on the Act III discussions. I know they're relevant, I know there's a lot to talk about in this game, and I'm glad there are a lot of people engaged in this LP. I want to talk about it too, but we'll get there when we get there. Next time: Really meeting Bleden Mark TheGreatEvilKing fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 06:56
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: Wut?
: Yeah, if everyone had the knowledge of a master craftsman they could arm a small unit of bandits in a few years after years of practice.
: I was actually fused into my armor by the Edict of Storms, because I was fighting the Overlord's enemies.
: Hi.
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This is the point where I dropped this game during my own attempt to play it back around the time it released so I'm excited to see what happens next. Thanks for putting this LP together TheGreatEvilKing
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Oct 17, 2020 08:01
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In short: What a cluster gently caress
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Oct 17, 2020 08:40
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If you don't feed school of tides to Nerat, Ebb is allowed because she is your deputy. I think that you look into it too much, and in reality it is just a throwaway piece of dialog to show reactivity. ---- Also does Tunon really not have eyes in the mask? I can't tell from the screenshot, and I don't have a savefile next to him... If so, I never noticed
Xarn fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 09:35
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Tunon's mask not having eyeholes is probably not a big deal except symbolically. Nerat is also a floating mask on top of glowy green energy. I assume stuff just kinda works. Graven Ashe is a 'young' Archon and his midsection is a big glowy blue orb, while Sirin looked pretty normal but is also like 15. We'll get to see Cairn's deal (maybe) considering he's 'dead' but in comparison to all the rest it's kind of interesting that Bleden Mark mostly still looks like a normal human.
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Oct 17, 2020 09:39
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I am glad you are navigating these waters instead of the hive mind. We would definitely see what happens when wrath outpaces favor with Tunon.
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Oct 17, 2020 09:50
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Tunon is indeed trapped. First off, by having Kyros as the basis for law (which seems very Code of Hammurabi, where the law has its basis not on moral or ethical principles but the authority of the monarch), Tunon is forced to permit Kyros to edit the ways in which he can adjudicate. I don’t know if his missing mask involved mercy or some form of additional judgment, but its loss clearly constrains Tunon’s ability to act in his official capacity, and I presume his “don’t ask me about the masks” is tied to that. But worse yet: Kyros’ law is inherently flawed. The principle of Kyros’ peace, which first attracted him to her law, simply cannot exist in any stable way with the Magicians’ Folly. Because the principle that protects life is no principle, but Kyros’ will, and because Kyros’ will dictates that anything done by magic in her service must be permitted, then any magic done in Kyros’ service is considered to have been by Kyros’ will. That means anyone with magic can use it to any purpose unless Kyros directly states that purpose to be incompatible with her will, or its usage is clearly against Kyros. That not only means Barik is stuck in his armor as an unintended consequence of an edict because Tunon is forced to assume that whatever happens through magic is expressly Kyros’ will unless that claim can be obviously falsified, but that an Archon can essentially do whatever so long as their actions can’t clearly be proven to oppose Kyros. Burn down a wealthy merchant’s house, seize all valuables, enslave the family; then claim if questioned that while the merchant was commanded to trade in foodstuffs, he was selling jewelry. Any action involving magic against such a person is therefore justified. And conveniently, if the merchant is dead, the house destroyed, and the property seized, who can disprove the claim? The underlying structure appears to be that Kyros wants to assert ultimate power over magic—that any act performed by magic is in Kyros’ control because Kyros is master of magic—without actually having that power. A mage who takes the field against one of Kyros’ armies is clearly using magic in opposition to Kyros’ will and must be stopped, but Nerat can freely use magic to do whatever he wants so long as he can claim to serve Kyros, until such time as he is exposed as a traitor. That fits with the idea that Kyros wants the Archons set against each other and not plotting against her. Their ability to act with relative impunity rests entirely upon Kyros’ law, which itself depends upon Kyros. By banding together to defeat Kyros, they would strip themselves of protection. Given that Tunon and his subArchon appear to be extremely dangerous, they act as a check on the Archons’ ability to threaten Kyros but cannot otherwise meaningfully check their power. In other words, only by accusations of treachery against Kyros do the Archons have need to fear Kyros’ law. Tunon is thus both the force through which Kyros’ law is enforced, and the figure whose position and threat permits the Archons to violate it with near impunity. Nor can he resolve the contradictions, for they are manifestly Kyros’ will, and to question Kyros’ will is to undermine the sole basis of the law. Ironically, if Tunon were as willing to exploit the Archon loophole as everyone else, he could correct some of the contradictions, but being honorable, he won’t.
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Oct 17, 2020 15:53
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Narsham posted:Ironically, if Tunon were as willing to exploit the Archon loophole as everyone else, he could correct some of the contradictions, but being honorable, he won’t. Edit: to clarify, Kyros' law at its basis is not one reasoned into. There's no philosophy that underpins it, save power for its own sake. Once you start looking at why the law is not working in this particular case, you start, necessarily, have to ask why the law is in this form in the first place, and that's the rabbit hole Tunon himself studiously avoids looking into when he crushes dissent from his own fatebinders that stare too deeply into the abyss. kw0134 fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 16:47
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It ties to the questions of religion quite neatly. It's hard to do any reforms with an infallible person in the middle of it since the authority can always fall back to "Kyros vult!"
anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 17:23
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You hit every single point of why Tunon is my favorite character in the game, hands down.
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Oct 17, 2020 19:06
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Tunon's third face was something like "Justice" or "Righteousness" or something to otherwise reflect that he applies the laws in a benevolent fashion to positive ends. Because, as we've seen from our conversation with the noble lady there, Tunon no longer gives a single rat's rear end about a fair, equitable outcome, or any of those other positive things we readers traditionally associate with the practice of law. This. This is Tunon.
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Oct 17, 2020 20:43
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I'm really loving how in depth you are with the behind the scenes nature of Kyros's rule. I feel like a lot of it would have gone over my head if I was playing it on my own.
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Oct 17, 2020 20:49
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Radio Free Kobold posted:I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Tunon's third face was something like "Justice" or "Righteousness" or something to otherwise reflect that he applies the laws in a benevolent fashion to positive ends. Because, as we've seen from our conversation with the noble lady there, Tunon no longer gives a single rat's rear end about a fair, equitable outcome, or any of those other positive things we readers traditionally associate with the practice of law. I've always thought that his third face was his real face, his human face.
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Oct 17, 2020 21:18
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OOrochi posted:I'm really loving how in depth you are with the behind the scenes nature of Kyros's rule. I feel like a lot of it would have gone over my head if I was playing it on my own. I think some of the inferences are reaching a beyond what the text of the game actually supports so don't feel bad about not reading the same thing. The analysis makes for good LP fodder and the author is dead, so
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Oct 17, 2020 22:18
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lady lucretius has a bonus piece of entertainment value: her story is far from uncommon here and now! the story of how you build a highway or a bypass or whatever through a city in the modern age features an awful lot of "here's a small percentage of your property's value and a voucher for government housing somewhere else in the city, figure out how to make poo poo work, someone's gotta suffer in the name of mass transit and elected officials have decided you're the safest person to gently caress over." by bronze age standards she's coming out STUPIDLY ahead on things, and even within the game we've seen enough of the Chorus and the Disfavored to know that if either of the other big archons had been in charge of determining what to do with her she'd either be a slave or a corpse by now. while that would obviously be worse, it would at least be understandable. but there is something fundamentally weird about the guy who says "I AM JUSTICE. I AM LAW. HERE'S TWO HUNDRED BUCKS, YOU'RE A FARMER NOW. EVERYONE SHOULD BE HAPPY ABOUT THIS"
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Oct 17, 2020 22:19
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Deadmeat5150 posted:I've always thought that his third face was his real face, his human face. Tunon was a lawyer who went into politics, he never had any humanity in the first place.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:30
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:lady lucretius has a bonus piece of entertainment value: her story is far from uncommon here and now! the story of how you build a highway or a bypass or whatever through a city in the modern age features an awful lot of "here's a small percentage of your property's value and a voucher for government housing somewhere else in the city, figure out how to make poo poo work, someone's gotta suffer in the name of mass transit and elected officials have decided you're the safest person to gently caress over." Her concern is that she's going to become a corpse regardless. She has little confidence in local law enforcement protecting her from the Chorus's depridations. And then there's the question of if it's enough money to hire staff to work the farm + buy seeds and food until she gets set up. So she lost her ancestral home, and may be land rich but cash poor, AND doesn't have the ability to work the land. She's very much screwed. Doubly so if there's a bad year of crops due to say, a bunch of unskilled labour trying to run a bunch of farms thanks to Chorus recruitment.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:18
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