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I have been loving this show for it's camp and weird horror and fearless willingness to just be messy but lately I've noticed something else: I've been really emotionally moved for the last few episodes. Tic dealing with Montrose and Montrose dealing with his queerness (and gradually coming to sort of kind of accept queer love) was really powerful to me. And now with Episode 9, watching Tulsa burn, I felt a microdose of that fear and rage and sadness Montrose and his community must have felt. Seeing it happen "live" just profoundly disturbed me and watching Montrose watch the carnage (or Leti watch the grandma) just really moved me. I didn't expect a show like this would make me tear up so much!
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Oct 13, 2020 15:06
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Open Source Idiom posted:Excellent. No comment on the episode, except to say that I've missed seeing Regina Taylor on screen. This show really is good about pulling in a ton of good actors. Yeah I expected it to be far more into Lovecraft but have been really happy with how this show evolved. One thing I will say is that, in a way, they really did capture some of the spirit of HP Lovecraft and his writing, if not the core spirit. Xenophobia or fear of the other is probably THE theme behind every single bit (well aside from one offs like Quest of Iranon) of Lovecraft's works. Human's were constantly living in ignorance of these other entities and their servants who couldn't be fought or reasoned with. Even being around them could drive you to madness and death was a kind release. These creatures had no place for humanity except as food and not even their servants were spared their hunger. Lovecraft came up with all this as a reaction to the outside world and foreign non whites crowding into his traditional New England life. I still wonder how much living briefly in NYC broke him. LC is turning a spotlight on the xenophobia. Everyone is scared of people not like themselves. We all live there and are guilty of it, even if we should feel some sympathy and know better. I know people wondered why Montrose killed the ghost they rescued. At the time I figured it was just because he wanted to kill off all the magic and save his son but I realize I didn't know gently caress all. Show good but man... it hits hard. Did not expect a show about ghosts, wizards and monsters to do that. AtraMorS posted:This is going to be really self-indulgent and I get it if nobody gives a poo poo. Good read. Don't feel bad as I talked about way too long about personal bollocks. Your info was about more than relevant and brought up something that is sadly commonplace. You will find it in most, if not all, countries around the globe. Gentrification. Almost always those people get tossed out because they can't afford to live there and they move to another ghetto that luckily the powers that be don't give a care about.... for now. It's the one thing that really gets to me when people defend gentrification. Oh yeah you are bulldozing a "dangerous" area and providing new jobs and housing but are you giving it to the people who already live there? No? Then gently caress off with that shite. I remember one guy saying "well its not like we kick them out physically and shove guns into their faces?" Imagine a smug self satisfied inbred chuckle added as... you get the implication right? Insidious. And its everywhere.
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Oct 13, 2020 19:05
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mary had a little clam posted:I have been loving this show for it's camp and weird horror and fearless willingness to just be messy but lately I've noticed something else: I've been really emotionally moved for the last few episodes. Tic dealing with Montrose and Montrose dealing with his queerness (and gradually coming to sort of kind of accept queer love) was really powerful to me. And now with Episode 9, watching Tulsa burn, I felt a microdose of that fear and rage and sadness Montrose and his community must have felt. Seeing it happen "live" just profoundly disturbed me and watching Montrose watch the carnage (or Leti watch the grandma) just really moved me. Yeah legitimately the Tulsa burning was loving brutal. It's one thing to read about it in history books, it's another to have a show vest interest in characters so you become emotionally involved when you watch it recreated. I'm glad they didn't have shoggoths pop up or something, it would have taken away the grave seriousness of the episode.
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Oct 13, 2020 19:50
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Goddamn. The Montrose looking at the camera scene was powerful.
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Oct 13, 2020 22:12
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Open Source Idiom posted:Excellent. No comment on the episode, except to say that I've missed seeing Regina Taylor on screen. To be fair, I don't think the book did that either. The whole "Lovecraft" thing in both the book and the series is so tenous that I guess the author just wanted a cool name.
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Oct 14, 2020 03:35
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radlum posted:To be fair, I don't think the book did that either. The whole "Lovecraft" thing in both the book and the series is so tenous that I guess the author just wanted a cool name. It's pretty clear what the connection is to me, anyway--not Lovecraft's works, beyond the broadest themes of "people loving with the supernatural and regretting it," but racism in New England. Atticus crosses the Mason-Dixon line and feels relief that he shouldn't, because he's no safer. He's in "Lovecraft Country" and every hand is still turned against him.
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Oct 14, 2020 17:53
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As a New Englander, there's no city in the region we're prouder of than Chicago.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:10
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Chairman Capone posted:As a New Englander, there's no city in the region we're prouder of than Chicago. I've spent enough time in Boston to say that this checks out.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:12
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So I've just started listening to the official HBO podcast "Lovecraft Country Radio", and something is puzzling me a little. Please forgive my white European never-having-had-first-hand-experience-with-black-culture ignorance, but as a non-native speaker, I'm genuinely interested. One of the hosts (who is a writer on the show) keeps referring to herself as "mother of three free black children". Why the emphasis on the "free" here? Is it a common expression akin to the much-maligned "woke", as in "I raise my children with the awareness of the systemic injustices they face as people of color, and I teach them means and ways to combat those injustices", or is it a reference to slavery (which would strike me as odd in the 2000s), or am I reading too much into it and it simply means "raised in a liberal, non-authoritarian way"? Again, pardon the ignorance, just interested and I thought this might be a good place to ask. LC is a hell of a show and it's given me a lot to think about over the last nine weeks.
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Oct 14, 2020 19:39
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Doltos posted:Yeah legitimately the Tulsa burning was loving brutal. It's one thing to read about it in history books, it's another to have a show vest interest in characters so you become emotionally involved when you watch it recreated. I'm glad they didn't have shoggoths pop up or something, it would have taken away the grave seriousness of the episode. I got into a conversation with someone about Watchmen and its portrayal of the Tulsa massacre, and their sense was that despite good intentions, there was something exploitive or sensationalist about how it packaged black historical pain. This episode is an interesting counterpoint to that, because the stakes are so personal. The scope of the tragedy felt much clearer to me...you actually get to spend some time in this community and see what it looked like before it was ripped apart. And definitely, it helps that your POV characters are all people you've seen shaped by the trauma of it (directly or indirectly.) It's wild that this event scrubbed from white history books for a century would be depicted twice within a year of each other, but I can definitely see how this version is better and more reverent. One thing I definitely didn't expect, and that I'm thrilled by, is how Hippolyta is being handled. She's the kind of character that always gets marginalized even in trope-conscious storytelling: this middle-aged wife and mother, whose job is typically to be concerned or voice concern or mourn the dead or provide emotional support. It's thankless. Turning that on its head is my favorite surprise in this show. I'm all-in for Hippolyta becoming the blue-haired spacetime adventurer from Diana's comics. You thought Tic was going to become a John Carter type...nope, it's Hippolyta. It kicks rear end.
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Oct 14, 2020 20:51
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radlum posted:To be fair, I don't think the book did that either. The whole "Lovecraft" thing in both the book and the series is so tenous that I guess the author just wanted a cool name. Madurai posted:It's pretty clear what the connection is to me, anyway--not Lovecraft's works, beyond the broadest themes of "people loving with the supernatural and regretting it," but racism in New England. Atticus crosses the Mason-Dixon line and feels relief that he shouldn't, because he's no safer. He's in "Lovecraft Country" and every hand is still turned against him. It's even more general than "racism in New England." (Also, watch that bus breakdown scene in episode 1 again. Tic knows full well that crossing the Mason-Dixon line is no cause for relief.) For black people in the 1950s (and let's be real, continuing straight on through to today," America is a Lovecraft country. Both in the sense of plenty of white Americans all over the country holding views in line with old Howie Phil's and in the sense of "living in a world where vast powers that are at best utterly uncaring about you and at worst will casually destroy you out of hand if they deign to notice you." White supremacy, particularly as it is entrenched at every level of American society, law, and government, is the cosmic horror. The wizards and the monsters are just set dressing.
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Oct 15, 2020 08:19
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And the show hasn't failed to notice that what white supremacy is to black people in the United States, US imperialism is to most of the world's population. As you say, "vast powers that are at best utterly uncaring about you and at worst will casually destroy you out of hand if they deign to notice you."
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Oct 15, 2020 11:46
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I'm just wondering where they go from here with the eldritch stuff. Is Tic going to be battling systematic racism with shoggoths or something? It just feels like this show can easily, easily go off the rails. It hasn't yet from its overall message but I'm just waiting for it to start reaching.
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Oct 15, 2020 18:17
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Xealot posted:I got into a conversation with someone about Watchmen and its portrayal of the Tulsa massacre, and their sense was that despite good intentions, there was something exploitive or sensationalist about how it packaged black historical pain. This episode is an interesting counterpoint to that, because the stakes are so personal. The scope of the tragedy felt much clearer to me...you actually get to spend some time in this community and see what it looked like before it was ripped apart. And definitely, it helps that your POV characters are all people you've seen shaped by the trauma of it (directly or indirectly.) It's wild that this event scrubbed from white history books for a century would be depicted twice within a year of each other, but I can definitely see how this version is better and more reverent. I was very happy with Hippolyta's role as well. I still miss Uncle George as I'm a fan of Courtney B Vance but am loving how they are going from here. They made the right choice. Still miss him though. GimpInBlack posted:It's even more general than "racism in New England." (Also, watch that bus breakdown scene in episode 1 again. Tic knows full well that crossing the Mason-Dixon line is no cause for relief.) For black people in the 1950s (and let's be real, continuing straight on through to today," America is a Lovecraft country. Both in the sense of plenty of white Americans all over the country holding views in line with old Howie Phil's and in the sense of "living in a world where vast powers that are at best utterly uncaring about you and at worst will casually destroy you out of hand if they deign to notice you." White supremacy, particularly as it is entrenched at every level of American society, law, and government, is the cosmic horror. The wizards and the monsters are just set dressing. Very good take and worded better than I did. Doltos posted:I'm just wondering where they go from here with the eldritch stuff. Is Tic going to be battling systematic racism with shoggoths or something? It just feels like this show can easily, easily go off the rails. It hasn't yet from its overall message but I'm just waiting for it to start reaching. Still love they are bringing in so many actors that don't get enough work. If they bring in CCH Pounder and Charles S Dutton I will be so happy. Been a fan of Dutton since I was a kid and that guy can act the hell out of far more than just cop roles. CCH Pounder should have been an A lister decades ago.
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Oct 15, 2020 21:50
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She's never been an A-Lister but she was definitely on the radar and a name I recognize from my youth. I do love that a lot of black actors and actresses are getting spotlight now. People may groan and roll their eyes that every provocative series is doing a BLM message but man has it opened up new avenues not just in learning about history but also new awesome talent.
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Oct 16, 2020 01:25
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This thread became really good after people got over the fact that Tic (and the other characters) aren't always supposed to be likeable. Good job everyone.
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Oct 16, 2020 09:41
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Stoked for the finale, but as someone who's super curious and interested in the overall plot I'm worried I'll be unsatisfied. Most of the individual episodes were amazing.
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Oct 16, 2020 10:30
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As far as I can tell this show is entirely about how people stuck in abusive systems wittingly or unwittingly continue that abuse because that is what they have been taught and that is what society keeps teaching them - powers much greater than us influencing our every move, often without us knowing. It's something of a cliché in itself, but I can't think of any other recent show that drove that point home in a more convincing way, despite its flaws (and there are many). Around the middle of the season I wasn't entirely convinced they would have a cohesive throughline here, but I am definitely glad to be incredibly wrong about that.
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Oct 16, 2020 12:26
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Because they did Lady Trieu dirty in Watchmen I'm very anxiously awaiting their treatment of Jiah. Otherwise yeah this show rules.Hakkesshu posted:This thread became really good after people got over the fact that Tic (and the other characters) aren't always supposed to be likeable. Good job everyone. Also lol right? jesus christ
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Oct 16, 2020 12:32
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Following some others in this thread I'm just going to post a personal story to explain why Tic, and especially episode 6, resonated with me so much. So, I'm Dutch, and that means my country used to have a colonial empire which we got in the usual way of brutally murdering and oppressing anyone from the indigenous population who objected to being exploited for the profits of the elite of the metropole. Current day Indonesia (back then called the Dutch East Indies) was the most important part of that colonial empire. During WW2 Indonesia was occupied by Japan, and following WW2 Indonesia was de-facto independent and Indonesian nationalists also declared Indonesia independent. The Dutch government wasn't on board with this, so they send in the army, marking the beginning of the Indonesian War of Independence, which lasted until 1949. Factually this can be understood to be an attempt to recolonize Indonesia by the Netherlands. That is not, however, how this period of history is seen in my country. Only in literally the last year or two do we even start to see words like "Indonesian War of Independence" used to describe this period. Before, and still in many places, the deploying of the Dutch army to Indonesia is referred to as "Police Actions", which also refer specifically to Operation Product and Operation Kraai (Crow), two major military offensives undertaken by the Dutch army during the war. The language usage alone betrays just how not ready we are as a country to be honest about what we did in Indonesia. But archives are opening and younger generations with some more distance to the events are reexamining them, leading to more honest takes both in the fields of history and culture. Again, this is an incredibly recent development. As part of that it is becoming more and more clear that the Dutch army and government conducted themselves as you would expect from a colonial oppressor. We executed people without trial. We tortured people. We burned down villages. All this starting literally months after the end of WW2, often carried out by troops which had suffered the occupation of the Netherlands by the Germans. The executions, the torture, the reprisal raids, the famine and the genocide. In the public conciousness, we are one of the victims of this brutality by the nazis, and we surely could never be as bad as that. Except perhaps, we were. One of those troops sent to Indonesia to fight in this period was my paternal grandfather. A man I have only ever known as incredibly kind and loving and patient and whom I love dearly to this day, even though he died over a decade ago. On rare occasion, usually during remembrance day or such anniversaries, my grandparents would tell a story or two about what it had been like to live under occupation during WW2. To be oppressed in your own country. My grandfather has to my knowledge never said a word about Indonesia to any of his children or grandchildren. He never once visited a veteran's association or event. I can only imagine what he did or saw in Indonesia, but I can not imagine it was anything to be proud of. My father is an intelligent man who nonetheless did not do very well in school. He would have to join the army anyway since we still had a draft back then, so he figured he'd join as a volunteer to get away from school as quickly as possible. But in order for him to join while still aged 17, he needed permission from his parents. My grandmother adamantly refused and my father had to wait until turning 18 before joining. I believe because of what the army had done to her husband. This caused a bitter rift between my father and my grandmother that lasted all the way to her deathbed. I hope in that final night they spent together they found some kind of peace, though I do not know. I suspect it is also part of the reason that my father has great trouble showing affection, and is completely unable to talk about his feelings. Part of the reason why he (very infrequently thankfully) beat my sister and I as children. Which in turn I suspect is a major reason my sister pursued a career in child psychology. I also think the lovely example he showed me of how to be a man is one of the reasons my 7 year relationship with my ex crashed and burned spectacularly, and I've been trying to figure out how to be better ever since. That I even know any of this is the result of literally decades of puzzling the pieces of family history together, as none of this is or was ever discussed in my family. This war ended nearly 71 years ago, and yet sometimes I feel like I'm still living in it's echos today. gently caress war. But goddamn do I feel Tic.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:21
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Hakkesshu posted:As far as I can tell this show is entirely about how people stuck in abusive systems wittingly or unwittingly continue that abuse because that is what they have been taught and that is what society keeps teaching them - powers much greater than us influencing our every move, often without us knowing. It's something of a cliché in itself, but I can't think of any other recent show that drove that point home in a more convincing way, despite its flaws (and there are many). Around the middle of the season I wasn't entirely convinced they would have a cohesive throughline here, but I am definitely glad to be incredibly wrong about that. Absolutely. If this wasn’t a show about racial injustice combined with shoggoths it would be a great drama about kids basically turning into their parents. Leti abandoning people, tic being abusive, ruby being conflicted about abandoning her black identity, montrose perpetuating violence that was done to him. My dad was a son of a bitch and I feel a lot like Tic sometimes. Not a lot of shows get me to connect on an emotional level and I’m pretty surprised still that this one did.
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Oct 16, 2020 18:27
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Orange Devil posted:So, I'm Dutch...To be oppressed in your own country...Indonesian recolonization.... This makes me re-contextualize the anti-Communist purges that happen 15 years later in Indonesia, as well. It's like a relay race of generational trauma, from Nazi occupation to Dutch recolonization to a rightwing genocidal purge. Horrors feeding horrors for a solid 40 years, as if it stopped or ended there. Sunday's episode of this show was so effective and making me understand Montrose. For all the horror he experienced as a result of being black in Tulsa, he and the other survivors at least had each other to share and process the trauma. But his personal trauma as a result of being gay, the loss of his first love, wasn't and couldn't be shared with anyone, ever. It's devastating and isolating in a way that could turn anyone into...what he is now. MKW was next-level good in this episode.
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Oct 17, 2020 01:36
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@Orange Devil that post rules. Also, I'm so loving excited for tonight.
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Oct 19, 2020 00:27
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I'm mixed on the ending : All that build up of Christina as the powerful sorceress just to be killed off so easily. If all they had to do was have Ji-ah do her tail thing why even bother letting it get to that point trying to use the binding spell like they did. They could have just had her sneak up during the ceremony and do whatever it was she did. It obviously didn't kill her so it seems like it was a viable option. Even if they didn't use her as the main plan it seems she would have been a good back up to have ready instead of just letting Atticus die then use the tails once it's too late.
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Oct 19, 2020 03:21
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I am bad at watching tv so I have no idea how Leti got her invulnerability back after losing it or how Di got a robot arm or why a monster befriended Di... although I don’t know why a monster killed all those cops and seemed friendly toward Tic a few episodes ago either.
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Oct 19, 2020 03:43
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Ballz posted:I am bad at watching tv so I have no idea how Leti got her invulnerability back after losing it or how Di got a robot arm or why a monster befriended Di... although I don’t know why a monster killed all those cops and seemed friendly toward Tic a few episodes ago either. Christina gave it back to her before she hit the ground in a brief flashback because she promised not to hurt her. Hippolyta used her knowledge from different dimensions to build her one in a scene earlier in the episode when she said she couldn't draw anymore but they didn't actually show she got the arm. The monster was a protection spell they put on Atticus a few episodes ago and they kept it alive in the basement of the house after. I guess it followed them to Ardham and saved D because it knows they are blood or he told it to protect her I guess.
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Oct 19, 2020 03:50
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I dont want to read any spoilers yet but I just wanna know...did they completely waste Ji-ah? Did her huge buildup have any payoff?
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Oct 19, 2020 04:18
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Bismuth posted:I dont want to read any spoilers yet but I just wanna know...did they completely waste Ji-ah? Did her huge buildup have any payoff? She plays a prominent role in the ending conflict fight scene, yes.
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Oct 19, 2020 04:48
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anothergod posted:Just a show of hands (no judgment), who here was beaten as a kid? We see this a lot in media, and I think a lot of poor/immigrant/etc families make jokes about it, but I have very rarely seen it talked about on any other level than "good/bad/funny".
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Oct 19, 2020 05:17
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Virginia Slams posted:I'm mixed on the ending : All that build up of Christina as the powerful sorceress just to be killed off so easily. If all they had to do was have Ji-ah do her tail thing why even bother letting it get to that point trying to use the binding spell like they did. They could have just had her sneak up during the ceremony and do whatever it was she did. It obviously didn't kill her so it seems like it was a viable option. Even if they didn't use her as the main plan it seems she would have been a good back up to have ready instead of just letting Atticus die then use the tails once it's too late. Emergency Exit fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Oct 19, 2020 |
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Oct 19, 2020 05:29
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Man, there is like 3 seasons of material here in this one 10 episode stretch. While I liked the show, I felt the finale threw up its hands and said “a bunch of poo poo happened off-screen. Here’s a series of half second clips to explain, hope you catch them.” A little more space to breathe and show us a bit more would’ve been appreciated.
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Oct 19, 2020 05:55
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A lot of explanations were in those brief flashback shots, but yes they were blink and you will miss it shots: - Tic bound his monster to Dee for her protection. It shows him with her touching her hand to the monster. - Christina (who actually loved Ruby) was bound by her promise not to harm Leti, so she put the Mark of Cain back on her before she hit the ground. - Atticus knew his own death was not a choice, and planned for that moment with FAITH that his family would pull through for him Also, Holy poo poo, I didn't see the twist that they shut magic off to all white people coming, but it's absolutely wonderful and a great twist on the idea of white wizards doing their spooky poo poo. Magic is literally "COLORED ONLY" Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Oct 19, 2020 |
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Oct 19, 2020 06:58
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Also, Holy poo poo, I didn't see the twist that they shut magic off to all white people coming, but it's absolutely wonderful and a great twist on the idea of white wizards doing their spooky poo poo. Magic is literally "COLORED ONLY" This is the only part that I have mixed feelings about, to be honest. I mean, I totally buy that these characters would have done this, so I'm on board, but I do hope I'm not expected to believe that vast power restricted to a subset of people based on racial characteristics isn't going to lead to exactly the kind of abuse that created white supremacy to begin with. I am an anarchist so I'm just not ready to see this as a happy ending (not that the show has to have a happy ending, obviously, though it feels like it was presented as a bittersweet type of happy ending). Then again also I'm white so I'm sus as hell in this. All in all, excellent show, easily best of the year, undecided if it beats out Spartacus for the number 3 spot in my best shows of all time list.
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Oct 19, 2020 14:08
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I'm laughing my rear end off at the concept of weaving all the rules lawyering necessary to encapsulate the concept of whiteness into the spell. I demand a Family Guy style cut to a few years in the future where JFK casts a spell to win the presidency and locks the Irish out of magic forever.
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Oct 19, 2020 15:06
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I'm laughing my rear end off at the concept of weaving all the rules lawyering necessary to encapsulate the concept of whiteness into the spell. Hey, it's fantasy, you can do anything... I'm going to take it as a tip of the hat to that relatively well-known trope: The Magical Negro. That would be some good inside baseball right there. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro
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Oct 19, 2020 15:55
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Is Ruby braindead like William, or was she just knocked out?
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Oct 19, 2020 16:28
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It took until last night, but they finally revealed what Christina was supposed to represent in the show. I've had some real trouble nailing down what they were trying to say with her character as she starts out moderately sympathetic by saving Tic three times and having a completely reasonable issue with being disregarded due to her sex, only to become the villain by the end. Then that scene in the family garage when she asks for the book revealed what the writers were saying she was. Christina is White Feminists. She shows up in that garage and basically says, "I'm not racist, I'm not out to get you out of malice, I need to murder you because it's a necessary component of immortality, which really is the least I deserve after daddy wouldn't let me into his all boys club." She absolutely is a critique of White Women Feminists from the POV of black people. Her affection for Ruby that only works as long as she still has control, her shallow dabbling in trying to understand the violence committed against Till, her only drive being her own exclusion from the halls of power while showing little empathy towards other oppressed groups. It's all there.
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Oct 19, 2020 16:48
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rich thick and creamy posted:Hey, it's fantasy, you can do anything... I'm going to take it as a tip of the hat to that relatively well-known trope: The Magical Negro. That would be some good inside baseball right there. Oh sure, I imagine it is as simple as self identification, as in if deep down you know you are privileged then it doesn't work. On a serious note, how do you identify any race but through exclusion, drawing Black by establishing a set of not-Black? On a less serious note, an off camera plotwhere they have to give thumbs-up/thumbs-down to every horseshit race-science stratification that was in use at the time.
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Oct 19, 2020 17:03
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I'm not really comfortable with Diana's part in this being to kill a powerless and defeated enemy, for a couple of reasons, no matter how cool her cyborg arm was. It was presented as this big "gently caress YEAH" comeuppance moment, but it sure didn't feel like it.
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Oct 19, 2020 17:29
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"He knew telling a story was a kind of power but he also knew it wasn't enough. If they were ever going to truly disrupt the hierarchy of warlocks they would have to spill blood other than their own."Madurai posted:I'm not really comfortable with Diana's part in this being to kill a powerless and defeated enemy, for a couple of reasons, no matter how cool her cyborg arm was. It was presented as this big "gently caress YEAH" comeuppance moment, but it sure didn't feel like it. "They still haven't learned" Okay, I'll stop being snarky. A white person is never a powerless and defeated enemy if you're black. Even without their magic they can do great harm. It didn't take any magic to kill Emmett Till, and then let his killers go scot free.
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Oct 19, 2020 17:36
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