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Terrible Opinions posted:Are there any evil guys left in Dragonlance besides the evil dragons? I thought draconians all became neutral dudes are their sauron was beaten? IIRC all of the Dragon Overlords are dead. The Dark Knights inherited the Dragonarmies' command structure but are a lot more secular. Mina has become a new evil goddess. Also the minotaurs invaded and occupied Silvanesti, and are a rising superpower in eastern Ansalson. Draconians after the Dragonarmies' dispersal served a variety of groups; some become super-nationalists and joined the remnants, some realized Takhisis exploited them and sought their own nation, others became mercs for other groups, some served the Dragon Overlords.
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Oct 20, 2020 00:44
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Notahippie posted:I would be flabbergasted if that was their lawyer if it was said as presented - it sounds like the kind of thing that a dumbass executive would think was clever but an actual lawyer would poo poo themselves when s/he was told what happened. You may be dismayed (and here, flabbergasted) to learn that there are many lawyers on the very fringes of competence. Paragraph 35 specifically alleges that WotC's attorney said this in a telephonic meeting with at least half a dozen people on the call. Either they're misrepresenting something said in front of many witnesses in their complaint, or he said it.
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Oct 20, 2020 00:51
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homullus posted:Either they're misrepresenting something said in front of many witnesses in their complaint, or Wizards is being represented by Lionell Hutz. "Brownest of the brown liquors!"
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Oct 20, 2020 00:53
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Joe Slowboat posted:The sheer nostalgia of it all is making me want to play a TTRPG inspired by Magi-Nation, and that really can't be a great idea. Sorry, that idea sounds extremely good. I think it would fly pretty well nowadays, especially (on the topic of terribly written villain factions) since many Core Magi were normal Magi gone bitter and cruel and could subsequently stop being evil if they really wanted, rather than inherently corrupt monsters.
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Oct 20, 2020 00:54
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Kurieg posted:Relevant to this discussion and perhaps the point of contention in the lawsuit. The races in Dragonlance are all universally aligned to the forces of good, evil, or neutrality. Like, as a whole loving race. I don't believe that this is true. Except for draconians, which were created by evil magic to be evil, all the Dragonlance races had the usual racial alignment stuff from AD&D: "Varies, but usually X". And there are even canonically good and heroic draconians. All the weird alignment stuff in Dragonlance was in its classes; even wizard magic divided along Good, Neutral, and Evil lines and had special alignment rules for phases of the moon.
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Oct 20, 2020 01:18
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I don't believe that this is true. Except for draconians, which were created by evil magic to be evil, all the Dragonlance races had the usual racial alignment stuff from AD&D: "Varies, but usually X". This is true. That said, I think there were still probably some legitimate issues of unfortunate implications in the way some of the races were handled in Dragonlance...I'm looking at you, Gully Dwarves.
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Oct 20, 2020 01:24
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KingKalamari posted:This is true. That said, I think there were still probably some legitimate issues of unfortunate implications in the way some of the races were handled in Dragonlance...I'm looking at you, Gully Dwarves. Oh, Dragonlance races are BAD, it's just that they aren't bad because of alignment.
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Oct 20, 2020 01:26
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Dragonlance races were like, yeah biological determinism is cool and all but what if it was way worse?
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Oct 20, 2020 01:39
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I don't believe that this is true. Except for draconians, which were created by evil magic to be evil, all the Dragonlance races had the usual racial alignment stuff from AD&D: "Varies, but usually X". The Draconians (the non-nobles at least) are capable of being any alignment, but most were evil-aligned due to being brainwashed and raised by an Evil Empire. When said empire collapsed there was more diversity in outlooks, as I mentioned above. The noble draconians have an inborn good alignment cuz the Gods of Good wanted to 'reinforce the Balance' when too many other draconian types were being made and indoctrinated. I found it to be a rather interesting multi-faceted outlook and deconstruction of Tolkienesque orcs. That being said, this does not excuse Dragonlance's other racial follies, such as the gully dwarves. EDIT: I also recall somewhere that kender are almost incapable of being evil. They can be neutral alignment, but they have strong tendencies towards Good. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 01:47
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homullus posted:You may be dismayed (and here, flabbergasted) to learn that there are many lawyers on the very fringes of competence. Paragraph 35 specifically alleges that WotC's attorney said this in a telephonic meeting with at least half a dozen people on the call. Either they're misrepresenting something said in front of many witnesses in their complaint, or he said it. On the other hand. There are often plenty of lies, of either omission(oh weird, you omitted the sentence or part before or after that we won't approve another draft statement) or complete mischaracterization in these legal statements. It's role is to build a specific narrative to lead the person reading it to a negative conclusion(or a positive conclusion on the one writing it), so who knows what has been left out. I'm not particularly inclined to give WotC any benefit of the doubt though, so that's about the limit of my caping. They probably did do that poo poo. Take that settlement. Although the wording of "zeitgeist" issues in that is loving trash.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:37
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BirdieBedtime posted:Sorry, that idea sounds extremely good. I think it would fly pretty well nowadays, especially (on the topic of terribly written villain factions) since many Core Magi were normal Magi gone bitter and cruel and could subsequently stop being evil if they really wanted, rather than inherently corrupt monsters. Mostly I just think Mons TTRPGs are pretty hard to make work, though 'mons but your mons-summoning energy is your HP' could be drat cool. Also yeah I just love the setting from the GBC game. It's weird and exciting and the Core Magi are genuinely deeply distressing, like Morag.
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Oct 20, 2020 04:04
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Dexo posted:On the other hand. There are often plenty of lies, of either omission(oh weird, you omitted the sentence or part before or after that we won't approve another draft statement) or complete mischaracterization in these legal statements. It's role is to build a specific narrative to lead the person reading it to a negative conclusion(or a positive conclusion on the one writing it), so who knows what has been left out. Each side pays their own way in the American system, though, so you want to minimize the ways you can lose money and the case. If your law/fact position is strong, you don't need to dip much into half-truths and mischaracterizations--you run with your good facts and your good law in your pleadings. In places your facts and law are weaker, you have to do the best you can with what's left.
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Oct 20, 2020 05:33
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Warthur posted:If this was for PR then the way to do that would be to put a settlement offer in front of Weis and Hickman, rather than stonewalling them until they sued and got this into the public sphere. Yeah, if this is PR you pay the kill fee then go spin it to Hasbro as a PR disaster prevented. Libertad! posted:EDIT: I also recall somewhere that kender are almost incapable of being evil. They can be neutral alignment, but they have strong tendencies towards Good. The implication is that Kender are inherently childlike in outlook. They can't ~really~ be evil because they don't have the moral sense to really grapple with philosophy and are innocents so they tend towards good by default. While also being a race of sociopathic kleptomaniacs who lack object permanence. They're almost uniquely bad. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 06:55
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All the talk about the revisions is just to show that the termination couldn't be justified under the six criteria for the termination clause. The real meat of the claim is that, because WotC couldn't justify terminating the contract by law, they decided to terminate the contract in fact by arbitrarily declaring that they are going to ignore it while not canceling it (so they don't eat a penalty). I see a lot of people assuming this is like some RPG industry spat where, oh man, you did 300 pages for a supplement and got paid but they aren't going to publish it, that sucks but why do you care? But this isn't a supplement, the books were going to be published by Random House, and the lawsuit mentions that random house gave them 10 million dollars in advances. So in this case, yeah, there is a huge difference between "I wrote a bunch of stuff and got paid for it but it will never see the light of day" and "I wrote a bunch of stuff and if it doesn't get published or officially terminated i am on the hook for 10 million loving united states dollars.
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Oct 20, 2020 07:10
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:All the weird alignment stuff in Dragonlance was in its classes; even wizard magic divided along Good, Neutral, and Evil lines and had special alignment rules for phases of the moon. Caramon: "My brother specifically signed up with the evil mages and mutters to himself but I'm sure it's fine." Raistlin: "Murder murder murder my brother..." Caramon: "See? He looks so happy right now."
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Oct 20, 2020 07:11
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Kurieg posted:Relevant to this discussion and perhaps the point of contention in the lawsuit. The races in Dragonlance are all universally aligned to the forces of good, evil, or neutrality. Like, as a whole loving race. It is not often I get to see a often quoted fact on here that is utterly wrong, but that has to be one of them. WTF are you talking about? The GODS are are all universally aligned to the forces of good, evil, or neutrality but AFAIK none of the other races were. Also, there are evil Kender. They live in Ravenloft and hate it. Every other race had good and bad individuals except I think Gully Dwarves? Was there any evil Tinker Gnomes? I'm really getting the sense here that Mike Merls and the guys he asked to help on 5th ed are lurking in the background of this lawsuit of why WOTC shut down everything Dragonlance out of nowhere.
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Oct 20, 2020 08:57
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I'm not a lawyer, but isn't it also the case that lawyers have to do as their client requests? Like, if some WotC executive thought they could weasel out of the contract and instructed the lawyer to act on that, and despite legal counsel still thought it was a good idea, wouldn't the lawyer have to roll their eyes and say the stupid thing?
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Oct 20, 2020 09:20
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Mormon Star Wars posted:But this isn't a supplement, the books were going to be published by Random House, and the lawsuit mentions that random house gave them 10 million dollars in advances. It absolutely does not say that. Random House did not give them 10 mil. Claiming 10 mil in damages is not the same thing at all. Edit: It's incredibly common for lawsuits to use huge numbers in their initial claims, numbers that have no bearing on reality. There is 0 chance that they'd be losing $10 million in royalties over 10 years. There's pretty much 0 chance they'd be losing 1 million in royalties over 10 years, they'd basically have to be in the top 10-15 of all books sold for the next 10 years to hit that. They're certainly out some money at a $/hour rate, and potential lost earnings, but 10 mil is wildly out. PST fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 09:57
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Was it the planescape ccg or the changling ccg that had scratch off elements so cards would eventually be used up?
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Oct 20, 2020 10:02
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Changeling had two types of booster, character and one with maps? But I don't remember any scratch-offs.
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Oct 20, 2020 10:07
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Planescape one.
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Oct 20, 2020 11:12
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Having slept on this, a thought comes to mind: there's a big question mark here, which concerns whether Penguin Random House weighs in or not. PRH's contract is with Weis and Hickman, not Wizards, and I don't work in US contract law, so this is a bit outside my area, but note that Weis and Hickman are alleging tortious interference, which is where the defendant's actions gently caress up a contract between the plaintiff and a third party and causes a loss to the third party. There's an implicit threat here that PRH themselves might bring their own tortious interference case against Wizards if this isn't sorted, on the basis of essentially the same facts. The case made could be pretty simple: - PRH and Weis & Hickman have a contract to publish these books. - The books cannot be published without approvals from Wizards, due to the Wizards-W&H contract, which was reached when Wizards were fully aware of the intention to reach a publishing agreement with PRH and in fact mentions that publishing agreement in its text (so Wizards cannot claim to have been unaware of that agreement). - Wizards is now refusing approval, which means Weis & Hickman cannot fulfil their end of the contract with PRH, which will in turn cause PRH the loss of the revenue that they would have otherwise received by publishing the books. In particular, the suit is alleging that back-channel communications happened between Wizards and PRH. The question this raises is "How did Weis & Hickman find out about this?", and the answer might be "They found out because PRH told them", so Wizards need to deal with the real possibility that PRH are giving Weis & Hickman this information because they are supportive of the lawsuit and will be helpful witnesses for Weis & Hickman should it come to court. PRH might also be a silent partner in Weis and Hickman's lawsuit - perhaps recommending lawyers to them (one of the firms has represented Brandon Sanderson, another PRH author, in the past) and paying some or all of the legal fees to make it more viable for Weis and Hickman to fight the case whilst staying out of it themselves. There might be a route out for this for WotC which doesn't involve forking out a monetary settlement: they could just give Weis & Hickman the rights to Dragonlance. There may be a sticking point with existing Dragonlance products, which I'm sure WotC won't want to yank from DTRPG, but there's ways to finagle it along the lines of "WotC retain a licence to sell all the old products". This'd be a big move, because it'd mean giving up that old IP for potential development... but not only were they not doing anything with it anyway, it seems like this whole situation arose in the first place because they've now decided that they are never going to do anything with it, or at the very least are never going to do anything with it with Weis and Hickman involved (and I don't think it would be commercially viable to do that, because any Dragonlance rerelease at this point would be a nostalgia project pandering to the nostalgia of a fandom who look to Weis and Hickman as the creators of the setting). It is too late to come out of the situation without any PR stink on them, but "Wizards generously hands rights to Dragonlance setting back to its creators" puts a bit of a shine on it. If Wizards have already made a firm decision to never revive Dragonlance themselves, it is hard to see what they lose out of letting someone else do it; it's not as though it's a setting which is likely to materially upend the market at this stage. It's not what Weis & Hickman are asking for - but the whole point of negotiating settlements out of court is to give the person who is suing you something which is not what they were asking for, but is acceptable enough to them that they drop the suit. And the big thing about such an offer is that it would make a lot of the negative impact that the suit talks about go away; WotC would no longer be acting as a barrier to Weis & Hickman getting the benefit of their work done to date on the novels or fulfilling their contract to Penguin Random House, they can wash their hands of the whole situation. It's not perfect, but this doesn't look like a situation where there's any perfect outcomes; even if every single court ruling goes WotC's way, should it go to court, they end up with a lot of dirty laundry aired and a bunch of people would see it, not without justification, as the big bully corporation treating two authors horribly. Might be better to take the loss, offload a setting they already clearly don't see much commercial worth in anyway, and at least come away with a bit of a shine off it. (It also lets them wash their hands of anything that Weis & Hickman or PRH put out later on; then if there is a controversy, it blows up on Weis and Hickman, not Wizards.) Liquid Communism posted:The implication is that Kender are inherently childlike in outlook. They can't ~really~ be evil because they don't have the moral sense to really grapple with philosophy and are innocents so they tend towards good by default. To modern eyes they come across as not so much neurodivergent as they are a really weird take on what neurodivergence is like, kind of like the gully dwarves come across as a lovely take on what people with cognitive development issues are like. potatocubed posted:I'm not a lawyer, but isn't it also the case that lawyers have to do as their client requests? That said, this does not seem to be one of those situations. If WotC's executives were 100% determined to take this course of action, the attorney would kind of have to go along with it, doing what he could to minimise the damage to WotC (hence the "we're not moving towards breach" language, for what little good that might do). If the attorney didn't say to WotC's people before the meeting "Listen, I think this has a major potential to blow up in your face, I see this risk and that risk, I think this alternate strategy might work out better", the attorney has been very lax. But if a client is determined to do something stupid there's not much that can be done. PST posted:It absolutely does not say that. Warthur fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 11:16
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MThe Blood War smells like black licorice.
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Oct 20, 2020 11:27
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Warthur posted:That said, I note that some payments from PRH have happened - see paragraphs 25 and 27. So PRH have ended up paying out money for books they will now not get, unless WotC relents. That's an issue for PRH rather than Weiss & Hickman (their problem is not getting any more payments, which according to the claim PRH stopped before the project was officially stopped). It's notable that they're not suing (at this point). Now there's a gajillion possible reasons for that, such as them not wanting to jeapordise any other ongoing contracts/arrangements, being in mediation/having been recompensed etc. There's far more we don't know here than do. A lot of the 'facts and averments' are opinion and it's entirely possible that there's a clause in the contract that lets WotC do what it's done. For one thing i've never seen a licensing contract without some forms of cancellation to it. Albeit in this case it looks to be that WotC haven't cancelled, they're just refusing to approve the drafts - according to the claim, which could be entirely true, or entirely fictitious, or somewhere in between. We can read between the lines in different ways, and certainly all of the attention to the 'love potion' and WotC's own problems with bigotry suggest that the books were killed because of problems with the text, and certainly 70 pages of changes suggests a lot of them (all depending on context we don't have, was it 70 pages that had to be changed, was it 70 pages of editorial notes, the latter would be ridiculously long).
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Oct 20, 2020 11:29
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PST posted:For one thing i've never seen a licensing contract without some forms of cancellation to it. There is one, and it is brought up in the lawsuit in Paragraph 51. They allege that there are six situations that can result in termination according to that section of the contract, and that Wizards are not cancelling the contract because they don't have sufficient cause according to that section. This is why they are including this quote from WotC's lawyer: quote:“We
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Oct 20, 2020 11:40
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PST posted:We can read between the lines in different ways, and certainly all of the attention to the 'love potion' and WotC's own problems with bigotry suggest that the books were killed because of problems with the text, and certainly 70 pages of changes suggests a lot of them (all depending on context we don't have, was it 70 pages that had to be changed, was it 70 pages of editorial notes, the latter would be ridiculously long). You're correct that there's a bunch of ways in which this could look very different once we see Wizards' side of the story. For instance, if those rewrites ended up being a token, desultory attempt which didn't really address the problem, Wizards might argue that Weis and Hickman weren't being as co-operative as they are making themselves out to be. I would be amused if this comes down to Wizards arguing "The revisions are clearly phoned in, look at the writing, it's utter trash" and Weis & Hickman arguing "No, your honour, that's the usual quality of our writing".
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Oct 20, 2020 11:41
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Warthur posted:You're correct that there's a bunch of ways in which this could look very different once we see Wizards' side of the story. For instance, if those rewrites ended up being a token, desultory attempt which didn't really address the problem, Wizards might argue that Weis and Hickman weren't being as co-operative as they are making themselves out to be. They're the rock gods of fantasy fiction you know! Without the contract, wotc's response and then ideally what they wrote, it's too hard to say. It's entirely possible that they did turn in a (borderline or outright) racist, sexist work that wotc kept wanting changes to, and Weiss & Hickman did the bare minimum until WotC gave up and decided they didn't want to go through with it (clearly something is involved on that nature here because otherwise why put it into your claim in the first place. I can't see any reason other than a pre-emptive defence). And in spite of that, for WotC also to be in breach of contract because they haven't paid a kill-fee or whatever else may or be in the contract allowing them to suspend the license. Or not in breach because there's a clause the claim makes no mention of. Or that there were some minor issues, they did make all the changes, and somewhere along the way WotC decided they didn't want to go through with dragonlance at all, so just stymied the project. PST fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 11:51
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Warthur posted:It's more than childlike - as I understand it, a Kender cannot be taught to respect others' personal property. They just do not get it and will never get it, despite being clearly sufficiently cognitively aware to carry on intelligible conversations with you. A kleptomaniac understands how people feel about stealing and will be pissed if you steal from them, they just can't help doing it themselves. A sociopath might not put the same importance on these things as the rest of us or think we're stupid for getting upset about this, but they can understand on an intellectual level "oh, yeah, people get mad at me if I do that, I should be circumspect if I choose to do that because the negative consequences of being caught are annoying". A kender just. doesn't. understand. Kender are simultaneously written as being unable to understand or be taught to understand the concept of personal property and cognizant enough to recognize theft and people's negative reactions to them to the degree that they'll offer up a host of lies to pretend they didn't do it. It's a weird contradiction, but when viewed with modern eyes and taking in the behaviour of Kender as if they were human (seeing as they're one of many human stand-ins), they come across not as neurodivergent, but as bald-faced liars trying to gaslight you about having stolen from you.
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Oct 20, 2020 11:52
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LatwPIAT posted:cognizant enough to recognize theft and people's negative reactions to them I mean, that's exactly what they do, yeah. I'm sure that's not what the authors intended, but that's very definitely what they wrote.
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Oct 20, 2020 12:20
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LatwPIAT posted:Kender are simultaneously written as being unable to understand or be taught to understand the concept of personal property and cognizant enough to recognize theft and people's negative reactions to them to the degree that they'll offer up a host of lies to pretend they didn't do it. It's a weird contradiction, but when viewed with modern eyes and taking in the behaviour of Kender as if they were human (seeing as they're one of many human stand-ins), they come across not as neurodivergent, but as bald-faced liars trying to gaslight you about having stolen from you. Yeah, I can see that - the sort of incompetent gaslighting which, rather than succeeding at convincing the target that they've lost their mind and their recollection of events can't be trusted, ends up persuading the target that the perpetrator has lost their goddamn mind and is either unable or unwilling to keep their facts straight, telling obvious lies that someone whose theory of mind is functioning properly would instantly realise wouldn't work.
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Oct 20, 2020 12:21
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:Was it the planescape ccg or the changling ccg that had scratch off elements so cards would eventually be used up? The WOW one had scratch off real world prizes in the game on otherwise uneventful but still playable cards. I remember having a bunch of the raid boxes because the one v. many thing you could do in that game was actually kinda fun, and getting a random riding chicken mount for WOW out of a booster sleeve it came with.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:12
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A people who just can't understand private property makes much more sense than a people who can't understand personal property, but this is the Hickmans we're talking about. Edit: VVV I know literally nothing about it except that John Wick wrote for something called Neopets at one point. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 16:21
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I just remembered the old neopets card game. No idea how it played, all I remembered was that it existed
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Oct 20, 2020 16:23
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Kai Tave posted:For me the weirdest thing about the whole "orcs and evil" discourse is how bizarrely angrily adamant some people get that they have to be able to kill orcs whenever they play a game, like if there isn't a potential avenue for orc-murder then this game sucks thanks to SJW cancel culture, I just can't imagine being that passionate about something so one-dimensional.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:00
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Isn't that how Tolkien did them anyway? Or was that just for the film?
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Oct 20, 2020 17:07
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moths posted:Isn't that how Tolkien did them anyway? Or was that just for the film? Just for the film, Tolkien had them as people, though he went back and forth on their origins etc and certainly didn’t feature any baby murders or possibility thereof.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:20
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Warthur posted:Yeah, I can see that - the sort of incompetent gaslighting which, rather than succeeding at convincing the target that they've lost their mind and their recollection of events can't be trusted, ends up persuading the target that the perpetrator has lost their goddamn mind and is either unable or unwilling to keep their facts straight, telling obvious lies that someone whose theory of mind is functioning properly would instantly realise wouldn't work. Kender are very Trump-like
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Oct 20, 2020 17:25
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The magically generated orcs in the LotR films are also just the Uruk-Hai created by Saruman. Sauron's orcs were just people made in the usual way.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:27
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homullus posted:You may be dismayed (and here, flabbergasted) to learn that there are many lawyers on the very fringes of competence. Paragraph 35 specifically alleges that WotC's attorney said this in a telephonic meeting with at least half a dozen people on the call. Either they're misrepresenting something said in front of many witnesses in their complaint, or he said it. I may have been lucky in my professional life. I guess having lovely lawyers is on-brand for D&D, though.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:38
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Warthur posted:It's more than childlike - as I understand it, a Kender cannot be taught to respect others' personal property. They just do not get it and will never get it, despite being clearly sufficiently cognitively aware to carry on intelligible conversations with you. A kleptomaniac understands how people feel about stealing and will be pissed if you steal from them, they just can't help doing it themselves. A sociopath might not put the same importance on these things as the rest of us or think we're stupid for getting upset about this, but they can understand on an intellectual level "oh, yeah, people get mad at me if I do that, I should be circumspect if I choose to do that because the negative consequences of being caught are annoying". A kender just. doesn't. understand. If I recall correctly, I think the possibility was presented (At least in later editions) that Kender could learn to not be quite so Kender-esque, but it was presented through Kender that have been traumatized by the evils of the world and was represented as them being a completely different race, mechanically. Which brings us to another of D&D's stupid approaches to race design: trying to accommodate deviations from one of the existing race option's usual behavior mold by just creating an entirely new subrace with different mechanics. Because heaven forbid a player ever try to represent diversity of opinion within a fantasy race!
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Oct 20, 2020 17:50
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