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YMB was being an aggro piece of poo poo to the right people though so therefore his posts were righteous and cannot be punished. In fact punish people for not submitting to him.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:57
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fool of sound posted:Yeah, we're probably going to codify that people should be given explicit warnings before they are threadbanned/subbanned/given a harsh ramp. We've largely been doing that anyway cause it just feels more fair, but I'd like it to be an codified thing. What was the explicit warning YMB was given?
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Oct 20, 2020 16:58
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Unoriginal Name posted:Does anyone consider that perhaps "bad posters" are further radicalized by the actions of moderators when they are arbitrary or can be perceived as such
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Oct 20, 2020 17:00
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Lemming posted:What was the explicit warning YMB was given? It was not done to YMB specifically, but it has been done to other posters in the past. Prester Jane, in I think the covid thread, for instance. I think there were some others that were threadbanned from the climate change thread a while back. FoS is saying it should be codified from here on out.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:01
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Unoriginal Name posted:Does anyone consider that perhaps "bad posters" are further radicalized by the actions of moderators when they are arbitrary or can be perceived as such So yes, that is considered and in fact that's the point.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:03
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Doctor Butts posted:It was not done to YMB specifically, but it has been done to other posters in the past. Prester Jane, in I think the covid thread, for instance. I think there were some others that were threadbanned from the climate change thread a while back. RevolverDivider posted:YMB was being an aggro piece of poo poo to the right people though so therefore his posts were righteous and cannot be punished. In fact punish people for not submitting to him. MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:04
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Lemming posted:What was the explicit warning YMB was given? Dozens of probations of gradually increasing length with probation reasons telling him to stop. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:05
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There are way worse posters than YMB that will never be forum banned because they are ideologically similar to Fool of Sound, this is another pretty blatant example of the mods not giving a poo poo about the actual rules and just punishing the people they don't like, and justifying it by pointing out the fact that they made up a few dozen fake reasons to punish that person before so obviously it's justified to ramp up probation now.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:17
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:this, but with evilweasel I know that debating with evilweasel can be frustrating, since he's a lawyer (I think?) and is therefore very skilled at picking apart his debate opponents' flimsy arguments using clear language and with relatively little effort. However, I'll say that he is one of the few posters in D&D whose posts I stop my scroll-skimming for and take the time to read, because they are always good and informative and also entertaining. I tend to learn something from them even if I happen to disagree with him on the finer points. I cannot, unfortunately, say the same about YMB.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:20
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:gently caress off - there is nothing YMB has done that hasn't been done even more, and for more trivial reasons, by other posters here. The action taken there was, as usual especially for Main Paineframe, personal in nature and not due to any consistently-enforced policy or even general sense of fairness. That's why more rules won't work: it will just provide more justification for the harassment and abuse the team here was going to do anyway. This is exactly the type of posting that earned YMB his subforum ban, you just like him don't want to actually talk and discuss with anyone. You want to attack and punish your posting enemies. You continually attack others and refuse to treat anyone with even a small amount of respect, instead act hostile to anything that doesn't toe the line of what you want. This is the style of posting that has been bad for DnD and the forums as a whole. Its the same poo poo that we only allow in FYAD for a reason, its toxic bullshit edit: Doctor Butts posted:It was not done to YMB specifically, but it has been done to other posters in the past. Prester Jane, in I think the covid thread, for instance. I think there were some others that were threadbanned from the climate change thread a while back. PJ earned a topic ban about covid because she literally was posting conspiracy theories that were incredibly unhinged about covid and china, from sources that literally were random unknown people on twitter that were false or fake. It wasn't helpful posting and honestly wasn't healthy posting. Doing so was necessary to not drown out actual information and news and to not give a platform for what amounted to unhinged rants that literally were false information. Thats before you count the fairly unvague racism that occured more then once about chinese I think the same thing was the deal with the climate change thread, people posting false or conspiracy theories that were unfounded, to make the thread go into a depression spiral. The climate thread is pretty  at times because of the depressing nature of it.
UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:21
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I think it's better if we could all not be abrasive jerks, but I also want to remind the mods that we've had literally years of this cycle where people with regressive and horrifying opinions get free reign to spout them until the tenor of conversation starts getting really nasty, and then the people who do the abrasive posting get the boot and the cycle begins anew. We had this with racism, we had this with concentration camps, we had this with rape apologia, and we'll have it again. You can't expect people to always be calm and collected when talking about topics with this kind of emotional investment. I'm not especially inclined to come rushing out to the defense of the Mean Posts that were made by people like TB or YMB but recognize the pattern, please.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:23
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UCS Hellmaker posted:This is exactly the type of posting that earned YMB his subforum ban, you just like him don't want to actually talk and discuss with anyone. You want to attack and punish your posting enemies. You continually attack others and refuse to treat anyone with even a small amount of respect, instead act hostile to anything that doesn't toe the line of what you want. This is the style of posting that has been bad for DnD and the forums as a whole. Its the same poo poo that we only allow in FYAD for a reason, its toxic bullshit
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Oct 20, 2020 17:28
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I addressed the substance of the post I was replying to and expanded on the ones I made earlier, but all you can think about is the stray "gently caress" I threw in along with it. I even took the time to respond to your reply me as well, but I see you're ignoring that in favor of more tone policing. It is actually your kind of posting that is bad for D&D: much more concerned with the form of any debate, than the substance of it. All you're doing in this thread is slapping the mods on the back for a job well done and finger-wagging at people who disagree. What are some examples of YMB being harassed by mods? The probations? This is a serious question.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:29
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Unoriginal Name posted:Does anyone consider that perhaps "bad posters" are further radicalized by the actions of moderators when they are arbitrary or can be perceived as such your logic is unassailable here let me apply it in another framework Unoriginal Name posted:Does anyone consider that perhaps "incels" are further radicalized by the actions of women when they are arbitrary or can be perceived as such
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Oct 20, 2020 17:30
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I addressed the substance of the post I was replying to and expanded on the ones I made earlier, but all you can think about is the stray "gently caress" I threw in along with it. I even took the time to respond to your reply me as well, but I see you're ignoring that in favor of more tone policing. It is actually your kind of posting that is bad for D&D: much more concerned with the form of any debate, than the substance of it. All you're doing in this thread is slapping the mods on the back for a job well done and finger-wagging at people who disagree. No, I dont support hostile posting and the idea of making people into groups and ignoring and attacking them, something that you routinely do and have done. You tend to label people that don't agree with you as liberals that deserve to be punished and ignored, which is directly the major issue with DnD at this time. YMB earned a subforum ban for repeated shitposting and hostile posting, you are showing exactly why that was earned.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:31
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:What are some examples of YMB being harassed by mods? The probations? UCS Hellmaker posted:No, I dont support hostile posting and the idea of making people into groups and ignoring and attacking them, something that you routinely do and have done. You tend to label people that don't agree with you as liberals that deserve to be punished and ignored, which is directly the major issue with DnD at this time. YMB earned a subforum ban for repeated shitposting and hostile posting, you are showing exactly why that was earned. MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:33
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Uh, yes? Read the reason for the forum ban, for example, and tell me that's something that is even-handedly enforced. Do this, so I know whether to just ignore you for the rest of this thread. OK, here's the forum ban reason: quote:Consider yourself forum-banned from D&D as of now. We've been telling you for months to knock off the aggressiveness, the dismissiveness, the hostility, the trolling, and so on. Instead, it's gotten worse, to the point where half your posts are incomprehensible garbage because you're just piling layers of sarcasm and irony on top of each other in pursuit of sick burns. Enough is enough. If I see you in D&D again, I'm probing you on sight. User loses posting privileges for 3 days. What part is harassment? What part isn't even handedly enforced? I have never enjoyed YMB's posting, but if you have evidence of him being a victim of a coordinated campaign of mod harassment I would genuinely like to see that, because I don't think mods should be harassing posters, even if I think the poster is bad. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:36
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The ban reason seems fine to me, op
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Oct 20, 2020 17:36
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Uh, yes? Read the reason for the forum ban, for example, and tell me that's something that is even-handedly enforced. Do this, so I know whether to just ignore you for the rest of this thread. You want to turn this around on others to provide evidence you want. Post proof of harassments, because his rap sheet shows repeatedly that over the last ten years that he routinely acted the same way constantly, with hostile posting, attacking others and causing numerous derails to be an rear end. Its not the evidence you believe it is. He had been warned countless times to not be aggressive and hostile and showed he won't change. A subforum ban is perfect if someone wants to consistently be an rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:37
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If you can't post without being an rear end in a top hat, you shouldn't post in D&D. YMB can't post without being an rear end in a top hat, therefore they're not allowed to post in D&D. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:40
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A subforum ban even provides a means for redemption. Post better in other subforums for a while and you demonstrate you may deserve another chance.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:40
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Just for a moment of perspective I’d like to remind everybody that we’re getting at each other’s throats about a guy who went by the name “Yeowch My Balls!!!” He’s probably laughing his rear end off right now.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:40
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Is hostility or attacking ideas not allowed in the discussion and debate forum
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Oct 20, 2020 17:41
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whydirt posted:The ban reason seems fine to me, op Same. Everything stated in the ban reason is true and correct. YMB has been repeatedly probated, often for the same reasons. This is obvious simply from the probation reasons alone. Examples: quote:Screeching about 'crime genes' again, perennially being lovely in uspol. User loses posting privileges for 3 days. quote:Stop doing dumb callouts all the loving time. Respond directly to the person you want to argue with. User loses posting privileges for 1 week. quote:Doing the thing you always do and have already received numerous probations for. User loses posting privileges for 1 day. quote:I'm getting really bored of seeing you get probated over and over for the same poo poo you always loving do. User loses posting privileges for 3 days. quote:Inflammatory shitposting, in a heavily moderated thread (yet again). User loses posting privileges for 18 hours. And so on. It is super clear that he wasn't going to change his behavior, so a forum ban is the correct solution.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:45
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Unoriginal Name posted:Is hostility or attacking ideas not allowed in the discussion and debate forum Is the only thing you do hostilely attack other people's ideas? Then I'd rather not ever deal with you or any forum you decide to make your own. skeleton warrior fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:47
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:What part is harassment? What part isn't even handedly enforced? Seven Hundred Bee posted:I have never enjoyed YMB's posting, but if you have evidence of him being a victim of a coordinated campaign of mod harassment I would genuinely like to see that, because I don't think mods should be harassing posters, even if I think the poster is bad. MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:51
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RevolverDivider posted:YMB was being an aggro piece of poo poo to the right people though so therefore his posts were righteous and cannot be punished. In fact punish people for not submitting to him. This is incredibly toxic. I know some folks are going to strawman this as “decorum” or “tone policing” but pretending that everyone being responded to was a literal Nazi child rapist isn’t truthful. You can’t use every poster reading or responding to a thread as your personal speed bag. EDIT: poster clarified that they were being sarcastic, my mistake. I don’t care about the ramps one way or the other, I think it’s way more important to have the open lines of communication and be willing to discuss why decisions were made. These threads are a good way to go. Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:51
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Solkanar512 posted:This is incredibly toxic. I know some folks are going to strawman this as “decorum” or “tone policing” but pretending that everyone being responded to was a literal Nazi child rapist isn’t truthful. You can’t use every poster reading or responding to a thread as your personal speed bag. I was being facetious. YMB should’ve eaten this a year ago.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:53
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If the starting point of how you construct your opinion on how things should work on the forums is that you are never wrong when you go after someone, or someone's ideas, people are not going to respond well to that. For example we didn't declare a moratorium on the Tara Reade debate because it was settled that everyone had who had been accused of rape apologia was unquestionably guilty of such (and not because they were unquestionably acquitted either), we stopped it because the whole thing was a naturally extremely emotionally charged argument where no one was making any headway for a long time, and there was no reason to expect that to change. Some people seem confused about that. Flying-PCP fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:54
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enraged_camel posted:Same. Everything stated in the ban reason is true and correct. YMB has been repeatedly probated, often for the same reasons. This is obvious simply from the probation reasons alone. Examples: Maybe YMB just needed to use proper punctuation and capitalization.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:01
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:In this case, what part of that even applies to the post he was banned for? I don't know the details of YMB's posting habits, but he seems (well, seemed) to post in the GE thread with some frequency, and MP moderates that thread much more harshly than the other threads, so that may be why. I haven't researched that theory thoroughly though — it's just my perception.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:05
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:If you actually click through to the posts in question a lot of the time it's hard to tell what the mod is even talking about. Like the probation just before the forum ban, also by Main Paineframe, like the intent of the post is quite comprehensible, there's no personal attack, nothing that sticks out as breaking any rule. This is an artefact of Probations and Bans having to be attached to a single post. It's very common for posters to be probed for effectively a series of posts, and just looking at the specific posts linked to moderation actions is never going to give you the full picture. This is doubly true for actions like Thread or Subforum bans where the behavior of the poster as a whole is what what triggers the action.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:06
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Aramis posted:This is an artefact of Probations and Bans having to be attached to a single post.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:14
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People get frustrated and start postinf with increasing venom and sarcasm when their legitimate and deeply held concerns (say about the world historic villainy of US imperialism and the politicians who support it) are repeatedly dismissed out of hand or rebuffed with incredibly inane neoliberal 'wisdom'. Unfortunately I don't think there is a real solution to this absent a wider ideological spread on the moderation team. Until that time it actually does make sense to me to discourage those posters, mostly so they don't waste their time in a community actively hostile to their ideas that is also going to represent their ideas as 'thats hostile actually'. Its a self fulfilling prophecy and like someone has already mentioned its a traditional cycle in DnD at this point. On the the plus side the overall movement HAS definitely been leftward since I started reading the board in like 03 04, for sure.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:22
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Fair enough, but I would expect that the linked post would tend to be, if not the best, then at least a good example of what triggered the ban or probation. I agree this would be a good thing to be mindful of to help reduce confusion.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:24
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RevolverDivider posted:I was being facetious. YMB should’ve eaten this a year ago. Sorry for that then, it’s getting hard to tell.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:24
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enraged_camel posted:Same. Everything stated in the ban reason is true and correct. YMB has been repeatedly probated, often for the same reasons. This is obvious simply from the probation reasons alone. Examples: Of course, it might simply not be possible to have discussions between liberals and leftists on topics they disagree on, while adhering to D&D rules, and so just being openly biased in one direction actually reduces friction in some sense. That should definitely be made explicit of course, like full-on This is a LIBERAL BIAS thread warning in the OP for something like USPOL, or a This is a LEFTIST BIAS thread warning in the OP of the UKMT.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:55
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A Buttery Pastry posted:There is a very clear unspoken assumption here; that those probations were themselves correct. If that is not the case, then neither is the conclusion drawn from them. That's a huge sticking point for the concept of ramping, where the act of being punished becomes justification for further punishment. Ramping is basically a multiplier on whatever the mods are doing, for good or ill, so if the mods don't have the basics down then ramping is just gonna make things worse. It's pretty clear that a significant portion of D&D posters don't believe they have the fundamentals down, believing the mods to be unreasonably biased. Yes. This is what I was trying to say only better worded. Bias is inevitable, what makes people fall into a pattern of angry 'poo poo stirring' is when the bias is un acknowledged and so the mod decisions resulting from it seem capricious and retaliatory.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:57
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Half of YMBs rap sheet is just nonsense probations based on nothing more than personal dislike from MPF, it's easy to cite a bunch of probations based on nonsense as a reason to ban someone if nobody can be bothered to actually pay attention to the context of the situation (a mod with a grudge).
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Oct 20, 2020 19:03
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Half of YMBs rap sheet is just nonsense probations based on nothing more than personal dislike from MPF, it's easy to cite a bunch of probations based on nonsense as a reason to ban someone if nobody can be bothered to actually pay attention to the context of the situation (a mod with a grudge). Interesting theory but I used the magic of control+f to discover Herstory: 4 Helsing: 4 GJB: 7 MP: 14 FOS: 33 Does Fool of Sound also hold a grudge that resulted in him issuing more than twice as many as MPF? And do you have any proof for these allegations or what, because your initial one doesn't seem to hold up?
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Oct 20, 2020 19:13
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