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StashAugustine posted:glad too see you support comrade xi's efforts against Islamic radicalism hahaha ironic genocide denial is really funny let me make some jokes about the holocaust you'll love them
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Oct 21, 2020 15:48
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:hahaha ironic genocide denial is really funny let me make some jokes about the holocaust you'll love them look I'm being snarky there but I genuinely think you're misreading the argument here- we are arguing that the "reeducation" excuse is bullshit and China is actually treating the Uigurs like poo poo; the analogy is being made to western imperialism to show why the Chinese are at best just as bad
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Oct 21, 2020 15:53
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:hahaha ironic genocide denial is really funny let me make some jokes about the holocaust you'll love them so you'll go to bat for sincere genocide denial, but joking is a bridge too far?
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Oct 21, 2020 15:53
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StashAugustine posted:look I'm being snarky there but I genuinely think you're misreading the argument here- we are arguing that the "reeducation" excuse is bullshit and China is actually treating the Uigurs like poo poo; the analogy is being made to western imperialism to show why the Chinese are at best just as bad ok I believe you, it's just you can never tell with some people
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Oct 21, 2020 15:55
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Some people ITT are willingly blind. They aren't reeducation camps, and it has gently caress all to do with Islam. This isn't the US with the Japanese or the Russians and the Chechens which, while hosed up, could at least sort of be blustered by with a (legit in the case of the Russians, paranoia for the US) "security risk" justification. They are Turks in the land of the Han, and part of the Glorious Peoples Communist Revolution was getting rid of all the non Han. It's one in a series of genocides they have prosecuted, For The Revolution (not that they didn't do this before the revolution, it's their thing over there). They don't give two shits and find us bitching about it childish and niave about how things work in the world. They are going to do it, they are going to get away with it. The Uighurs are already in forced labor and the best they can hope for is that it stays that way while they slowly die out cause they aren't stopping and ain't nobody going to war with China over this. You can't hand waive it away and say it's all a neocon plot to slander China, claim it's just internment and getting an education, or say the scale isn't all that bad. It's another genocide in their long history of them, call it for what it is. And calling it a genocide doesn't make you a neocon.
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Oct 21, 2020 16:20
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MysteriousStranger posted:They are Turks in the land of the Han, and part of the Glorious Peoples Communist Revolution was getting rid of all the non Han. the ethnic minority population in china has grown relative to the han majority. are they just bad at genocide or what? Uranium 235 has issued a correction as of 22:39 on Oct 21, 2020 |
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Oct 21, 2020 22:35
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Uranium 235 posted:citation needed imo Funny how this derail is still on topic for the thread. This argument is literally used by neo-nazis. "The population of native americans/ jews increased, how could there have been a genocide?" "
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Oct 21, 2020 23:58
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I wrote several papers on this subject in 2014. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think I understand the roots of the problem fairly well. Xinjiang (or the outlawed term "Uyghurstan") is officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, which in theory allows Uyghurs more control over regional policy and grants them certain guarantees while accepting primarily Han rule from Beijing. This autonomy is increasingly sidestepped for several reasons: 1) growing market pressures as the region urbanizes nearly entirely by Han immigrants 2) growing disparity between north and south Xinjiang-- for instance, Karamay prefecture in the north is now 78% Han and has a 45,033 yuan per capita GDP. Khotan prefecture in the south is 97% Uyghur and has a per capita GDP of 1,977 yuan. 3) regional ethnic autonomy is supposedly guaranteed by a Uyghur executive chairman, but the Han-dominated CCP and Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps have taken over more and more authority as Beijing's attention has turned towards western expansion. the XPCC runs its own police force and militia tasked with suppressing unrest. 4) as Uyghurs are influenced more by more "orthodox" Sunni muslims in SA and other countries, Beijing has responded to perceived threats by banning veils, fasting, public prayer, and entering a mosque if under the age of 18. 5) the official bilingual policy of state jobs is more and more irrelevant as increased privatization makes Mandarin necessary for most decent jobs outside the ag sector. to illustrate this dominance, only 5% of Han Chinese in Xinjiang speak Uyghur Other economic concerns: 1) environmental devastation as rivers and lakes dry up due to the XPCC's insistence on large-scale cotton production in the Taklimakan desert 2) Hans outnumber Uyghurs 6 to 1 in the capital Urumchi while agrarian prefectures are more than 90% Uyghur. 80% of manufacturing, transport, communications, oil and gas, and science and technology jobs, along with 90% of construction jobs, belong to Han Chinese. Many Uyghurs make their living by selling cash crops to the government at fixed, low prices basically it's a lot of standard colonialist bullshit
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Oct 22, 2020 00:13
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MysteriousStranger posted:I lived in China for a bit due to work. It seems like a national outlook most Americans can readily understand and desire to enact in the US, even if most of them are too illiterate and inarticulate to express it beyond grunts and mass shootings.
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Oct 22, 2020 00:39
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Friendly reminder: ACAB All Colonizers Are Beasts
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Oct 22, 2020 00:41
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how the gently caress do you deradicalize people in an internment camp? just make their lives less poo poo, idiot
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Oct 22, 2020 00:53
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Flavius Aetass posted:basically it's a lot of standard colonialist bullshit my broad understanding is that han chauvanism is a thing, and it's not terribly suprising that there are reactionaries with a lot of power under "socialism with chinese characteristics" since that's intentionally vauge in a way that could be perfectly innocent or just "national socialism." and hey they're a lot like reactionaries here, and it's not really surprising that reactionaries here would react favorably to reactionary policies. i would be unsuprised to learn that china has both sincere communists and even the true curse of embracing unregulated markets, liberals, as well. if a lot of the liberals are han chauvanist reactionaries under a thing veneer, that's how you know you've found some true liberals (rather than say the equivalent of social democrats or something). Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 01:09 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 22, 2020 01:05
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i say swears online posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1318648131467300864 so supposedly the FBI is saying these are actually foreign election interference from Iran and Russia that might be true but man it's hard to trust a security state that lusts for iranian blood and also covers the asses of right wing gangs at every turn
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Oct 22, 2020 01:35
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LordSaturn posted:how the gently caress do you deradicalize people in an internment camp? just make their lives less poo poo, idiot they aren't deradicalizing them, they are removing the "not Han" as always.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:00
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Why is there a person in this thread defending Chinese genocide? Is it so hard to believe that another country would do what America did and arguably still does?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:11
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miniscule12 posted:Funny how this derail is still on topic for the thread. btw have holocaust deniers ever argued that the number of jews in germany increased during the holocaust? that's a new one to me Uranium 235 has issued a correction as of 04:18 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 22, 2020 04:13
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Why is there a person in this thread defending Chinese genocide? Is it so hard to believe that another country would do what America did and arguably still does? imo that is clearly nonsense
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Oct 22, 2020 04:17
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Uranium 235 posted:lol no, they didn't increase as a share of the total population. i'm not talking absolue numbers, i'm talking as a % of the whole. that is completely inconsistent with 'eliminating non-han people' "we threw them in concentration camps, we didn't kill them, thus not shot, what's the issue!"
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Oct 22, 2020 04:17
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Uranium 235 posted:idk if you are talking about me, but i'm taking issue with specific claims like "it's been a project of the chinese communist party from the beginning to eliminate all non-han people from china" They’re killing people in concentration camps, just like the US. Why do you care whether or not there’s been a press release about it from the ruling party?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:20
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MysteriousStranger posted:"we threw them in concentration camps, we didn't kill them, thus not shot, what's the issue!"
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Oct 22, 2020 04:22
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Why is there a person in this thread defending Chinese genocide? Is it so hard to believe that another country would do what America did and arguably still does? "arguably" lol this is cspam you don't have to pretend, remember the forced abortions thing? like a few weeks ago (20 billion trumpyears subjective time)?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:22
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:They’re killing people in concentration camps, just like the US. Why do you care whether or not there’s been a press release about it from the ruling party? those two facts are inconsistent with the notion that the ccp wants to eliminate ethnic minorities from china
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Oct 22, 2020 04:25
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Uranium 235 posted:so you agree with the claim that the ccp has, from the beginning, had the agenda of eliminating all non-han people from china? yes, the ccp is for the Han and of the Han. if you are not Han you are not part of China to them period. this predates the CCP but just because "they did a socialism" doesn't take it away. plenty of socialist governments have been or are highly ethnic based and have also repressed women and lgbtq types. ethno nationalism and socialism went hand in hand for the longest time. it's one of the reasons capitalism "won", because it just ate everyone alive and shat them out, rather than the bog standard ethno states that came out of socialism that killed gays and put women back in the kitchen.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:27
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How has the proportion of hispanic persons increased if the U.S. is putting them in camps? I am very intelligent.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:27
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MysteriousStranger posted:yes, the ccp is for the Han and of the Han. if you are not Han you are not part of China to them period. this predates the CCP but just because "they did a socialism" doesn't take it away. plenty of socialist governments have been or are highly ethnic based and have also repressed women and lgbtq types. ethno nationalism and socialism went hand in hand for the longest time. it's one of the reasons capitalism "won", because it just ate everyone alive and shat them out, rather than the bog standard ethno states that came out of socialism that killed gays and put women back in the kitchen. didn't mao explicitly criticize han chauvinism?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:29
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Uranium 235 posted:are you saying you can't join the ccp if you aren't han? the republican party is officially anti racist and blacks can join
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Oct 22, 2020 04:29
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Uranium 235 posted:so you agree with the claim that the ccp has, from the beginning, had the agenda of eliminating all non-han people from china? why believe that instead of my "reactionaries exist in china for the same reasons they exist here" hypothesis or some other one, but as a very handsome and smart third party who is in no way me wearing a mustache put it, "you should believe this goon because he is very handsome and smart."
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Oct 22, 2020 04:30
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a lot of people defending chinese genocide ITT because "no true socialist" and ya'll wonder why you get spit out like cat vomit
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Oct 22, 2020 04:33
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Flavius Aetass posted:I wrote several papers on this subject in 2014. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think I understand the roots of the problem fairly well.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:35
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how can you say the us genocides the natives when some natives are still alive
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Oct 22, 2020 04:42
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MysteriousStranger posted:a lot of people defending chinese genocide ITT because "no true socialist" and ya'll wonder why you get spit out like cat vomit certain broad claims like "the ccp has always been trying to eliminate ethnic minorities from china" just don't hold up based on what i know about china
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Oct 22, 2020 04:42
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Pornographic Memory posted:so supposedly the FBI is saying these are actually foreign election interference from Iran and Russia I think it’s mostly DNI Radcliffe perpetuating that.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:44
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StashAugustine posted:how can you say the us genocides the natives when some natives are still alive in china the ethnic minority population as a % of the total population has increased--completely the opposite as in the US if it were true that china wanted to eliminate ethnic minorities then why hasn't their population dwindled? they've had 70 years to do it and no one to stop them if they wanted to do it they could have. why did they exempt them from the one child policy? just doesn't make sense i'm not saying that china is treating ethnic minorities justly. i'm saying that they aren't trying to eliminate them. idk how you guys can disagree
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Oct 22, 2020 04:46
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Standard colonialist bullshit is genocide, though. I just don’t see the substance of the distinction being made. Is this because China is nominally communist?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:48
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Standard colonialist bullshit is genocide, though. I just don’t see the substance of the distinction being made. Is this because China is nominally communist?
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Oct 22, 2020 04:51
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i think this qualifies as a derail and i'm just repeating myself so i'm gonna stop posting about it get your last words in if you want
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Oct 22, 2020 04:52
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Standard colonialist bullshit is genocide, though. I just don’t see the substance of the distinction being made. Is this because China is nominally communist? They did a socialism, granted for the Han, thus everything else doesn't matter and is bullshit.
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Oct 22, 2020 05:01
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Chyna.
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Oct 22, 2020 05:17
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Standard colonialist bullshit is genocide, though. I just don’t see the substance of the distinction being made. Is this because China is nominally communist? basically, yes in some cases its more a being reasonably suspicious about narratives implicating regimes and ideologies which challenge america regardless of their moral standing it helps when you look and the stuff the party admits to is really bad enough as a fig leaf, its at best one one with a giant dong emblazoned upon in it
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Oct 22, 2020 05:22
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I think it helps rather than harms the cause of socialism to diagnose the imperialist crimes of China, as they’re loving capitalist scum able to get away with even more than US capitalists can manage, so far as that goes. I wouldn’t apologize for Mao’s crimes either.
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Oct 22, 2020 05:33
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