|
got off on a technicality posted:I've done a bunch of hiring and a seriously delayed start date (say anything past 4 weeks in the future) is a big no-no. I wouldn't even think of it in terms of leverage, because if it were me across from you I'd just pick other candidates. Since you do have savings I'd encourage you to take the plunge with the sabbatical and not look back. There will always be jobs in the future It can be industry based though as well. If I sent an offer today to someone by the time we have back and forth and get to acceptance, then go through all the back ground and drug test requirements... Maybe they could start December 1st. more likely the 15th though and if they wanted to delay to next year I would probably be good with it. Other places don't have all of that to deal with though so it can be a lot quicker.
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 17:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 10:33 |
|
|
I just hired a new customer account manager for my partner's SaaS and one of the most skilled/qualified candidates wanted five weeks notice before she could start. We needed someone asap, so that made her unsuitable. Shorter availability is great, but it'll be dependent on the business needs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 21:41
|
|
|
It'll be really dependent on the company and situation. Most every company wants you to start as soon as possible, but they don't always mean it's a dealbreaker if it's not next week. I gave three weeks notice and took the better part of a month off when I changed jobs last, and that was a non-issue in negotiating the offer. I've seen people get hired with start dates several months out from their interview. Startups probably can't wait for months. Established teams maybe can, for the right person.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2020 01:11
|
|
|
It's only going to work if you are viewed by the company as by far the best candidate. If there are any other candidates they feel OK about that can start a lot sooner than you, they'll hire that candidate instead, usually. In the current job market in most fields, welp.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2020 02:54
|
|
|
Alright I finally got to the offer stage with one of the places I was interviewing at. I read pretty much the entire thread front to back to prepare myself, since I've never truly put into practice the negotiation tactics reiterated here and wanted to make sure I came off as confidently as possible, but I did feel like it was hard to recall every bit of information and know how to say the right thing at the right times. Here's how my experience went:
Until I get the written offer, I won't have the full details to share, but there is an education allowance. One thing that stood out to me is that they said they do IRAs, not 401ks - I've never had a work-sponsored IRA and I'm not sure if this is good, bad, or neither.. The job is in a pretty high cost-of-living area, I have nearly 10 years of IT/sysadmin experience, and $80k is a 16% decrease in my current pay. While the benefits I have at my current place are nearly non-existent, I can't imagine the benefits package making up a 16% difference (not including the hit I'd take from retirement contributions). The work-life balance may be better, but I really don't know this for sure, and having to be physically present in an office during this pandemic is not something I'm really on-board with anyway. Overall, I don't feel I was very successful here, and I'm not sure yet what I could have done better (besides having a better, competing offer in hand). This thread has been invaluable though, and being able to put into practice these negotiation tactics has taught me new things about my boundaries and how to be more comfortable exercising my leverage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 22:17
|
|
about what you're making now and what number you expect. I said "current market rates are OK" and they laughed.
|
Don’t work at a nonprofit if you can help it. They won’t go a dime higher than maybe $85k, the bennies won’t be nearly worthwhile, and you should decline and keep looking. You should never accept a decrease in pay unless you have a very good, concrete justification for it (which, here, you do not). It would set your future earnings potential back catastrophically. Unemployment is actually better than accepting a lower salary, if you can bear it without bankruptcy. IMO your next move is “sorry but that would be a significant step down for me, good luck with your search” and move on. Ignore any bullshit you may get about Making A Difference and all that. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:Don’t work at a nonprofit if you can help it. They won’t go a dime higher than maybe $85k, the bennies won’t be nearly worthwhile, and you should decline and keep looking. Just echoing this. Aside from executives, people work at non-profits because they believe in the work and don't care about money. If you want to get paid, look at private sector, if you want security, look at public sector, if you want to feel good about your work, look at non-profit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:44
|
|
|
In my experience, non-profits are often pretty generous with time off and flexible work-hours, and for some people those things are very valuable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:48
|
|
|
Sounds like you did well knowing your goals and executing on that call. It doesn't always end with "and then they doubled their offer" but as everyone above: better to find out now. (my imo) it's actually nice to have a deal or two fall through, so you know what it feels like to not agree. maybe calibrate a little on when you can push and when it's really the best they're going to do although that is probably dangerous to assume you can read a stranger.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
FMguru posted:In my experience, non-profits are often pretty generous with time off and flexible work-hours, and for some people those things are very valuable. Except for when they're not. My wife has worked for several, and they are all the worst employers she's worked for - literally stealing comp from employees, cutting salaries because they are broke while paying for monthly first class flights to Singapore, etc. Most nonprofits pay less than for profits because of the mission. Some don't. If you aren't about the mission, don't take a pay cut.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:22
|
|
|
FMguru posted:In my experience, non-profits are often pretty generous with time off and flexible work-hours, and for some people those things are very valuable. My experience is the opposite--that they constantly hound you to give more time and effort for less money because it's For The Cause (while the executives rake in just as much as comparable private sector executives do). And often also pressure you to volunteer (read: work for free) and/or donate (read: cut your own salary) early and often, on a Totally Not Mandatory basis, because you believe in The Cause, right?? None of that really matters, though, because I don't care HOW great the flexibility and etc. seems, that stuff can change anytime and this will not be his last job, he positively should not accept a pay cut if he has ANY alternative whatsover.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
Thanks for the the advice - I'm not going to accept this job, unless they can come up with total comp that ends up better than what I've got now. I'm not holding my breath. Another factor that makes leaving this job for another one difficult is that I became a Canadian permanent resident before the lockdowns, and was interviewing remotely for positions in Toronto when the border closures happened - then all the interviews sublimated. I had no intention to find another job here, and even if I did get one, I would skip the country as soon as things were safe enough for the border to reopen, and I don't want to have a job on my resume that I left after less than 12 months. Technically I can cross now, but I'd still have to quit my job without another one since I'm not getting interviews while in the US. It's starting to feel like my only options here are to stay in this job and just continue to accept bad treatment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 17:27
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:Thanks for the the advice - I'm not going to accept this job, unless they can come up with total comp that ends up better than what I've got now. I'm not holding my breath.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 18:39
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:
Imagine working for the kind of person who would have that reaction. Onto the next one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 19:57
|
|
|
Another key thing during the negotiation is that the hiring manager got my name wrong, called me someone completely different, so that's interesting. I'm expecting another offer coming down the pipeline in the next week or two here. This one is a public school and the pay bands are public - even at the top of the pay band, I'm still taking a pay cut (~6%), so hopefully the benefits are strong enough to bring total comp above what I'm making at this current place. But it's a fully reopened school, so I'd have to be physically present in the offices, which I'm not thrilled about. It's a lateral move, but the title sounds better on paper. But even then, there were red flags, like the final interview with the superintendent being scheduled at the very last minute ("do you have time for an interview in a few hours?"). If it doesn't work out, then I'm probably back to looking at months of applications again. I'm really really tempted to just hand in my notice and take a break which, even with my savings, I'm still very scared to do. The situation just sucks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 20:11
|
|
|
Don't do it
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 20:31
|
|
|
Moneyball posted:Don't do it I've been trying real hard not to. But this job is straight from hell itself, and after 2.5 years of suffering at it, I'm tired with life. I just got the written offer from the nonprofit. They bumped the pay up $2500, and threw in 2 extra days of PTO (22 total). Assuming I continue to max out my retirement contributions, my net pay is about $4,000 less than this current place, so I'm still losing out. This doesn't factor in the medical premiums. I'd really like to see the offer from the public school to be able to compare them. What's a professional way I can tell the other place to hurry up, I've got another offer to consider?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
Woodstock posted:Imagine working for the kind of person who would have that reaction. i would laugh at this because its funny and i can acknowledge when i've been owned
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i would laugh at this because its funny and i can acknowledge when i've been owned For sure. Most hiring managers are going to ask. Remember the reason we want to not say a number is the same reason they want us to say a number.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2020 05:04
|
|
|
I interviewed with a place where I wasn't the right fit (I wasn't imo) but afterwards they wanted to do a followup. They are now discussing working with me to make a new role that doesn't exist (with team) and wanting me to fill. I uh, don't really have any idea how to do a combination role and self pitch to fill this role or what I should be thinking about/making sure I bring up especially related to hiring a team for me. I assume its ok to push for even higher salary than the initially discussed range tor the previous role (which I would have taken in a heart beat, it was 50% over current, 10% higher than equivalent role in my company) Barudak fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Oct 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2020 10:37
|
|
|
I'm starting to lean towards accepting the offer from the nonprofit, if they let me take some time off between jobs. I'm feeling that any choice that ends up with me still working at this job is an unacceptable option; I'm on the verge of a breakdown and need out out out. It's not ideal, but it may be worth it for the medium-term. Right now I'm in a customer-facing role, which is god awful in itself on top of the toxic work environment, and getting into something where I'm not dealing with horrible corporate clients would make life a lot easier. Maybe being able to sleep easy, not absolutely hate every aspect of my job, and putting some money into my pocket until I skip the country could be worth the pay cut. The benefits will definitely be better than what I have now (trash). Overall, total comp ends up at 2% above my current salary. Immediate downsides - besides the pay cut and being burnt out - are that I wouldn't be working with the latest tech and the title (senior sysadmin) is a bit outdated too, neither of which I can see as boosting my resume. I've got Wednesday to decide so I'll keep thinking about it. After reading about how public sector pay grades/steps typically work when first hired on, I don't expect the public school offer to be any good, so I'm not counting on that and am prepared to just reject it, but I'll share the details when I get it just for the hell of it. Also, what's the best way to broach asking for a later start date so I can have time off? Is that something you'd bring up before or after accepting an offer? Lil Miss Clackamas fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2020 16:35
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:Overall, total comp ends up at 2% above my current salary. Immediate downsides - besides the pay cut and being burnt out - are that I wouldn't be working with the latest tech and the title (senior sysadmin) is a bit outdated too, neither of which I can see as boosting my resume. I've got Wednesday to decide so I'll keep thinking about it. "After review of the total benefits package, I'd be happy to sign an offer letter consistent with that package with a title of [X] and would be able to start working with you on [Dec. 1/Dec. 15/date of your choice.] I'm looking forwards to beginning this partnership!"
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
That's perfect, thank you. Also I just noticed that the "offer" letter I got is not actually an offer letter but an "illustration" that's not intended to be an offer - even though I originally asked to see the offer before making a decision. Is it common to see "offers" like this with tentative language? I don't want to accept this "illustration" only to end up with a final offer that varies wildly from what I see here. What kind of language should I use in a situation like this? "Assuming the final offer is consistent with what is described in the document sent to me, I accept"? Lil Miss Clackamas fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Oct 20, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 06:12
|
|
|
“These terms as written are acceptable and I look forward to receiving your formal offer.”
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 06:45
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:That's perfect, thank you. That's loving weird. No. Edit: I mean what others have said, as in "what you have offered is acceptable." Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Oct 20, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 09:00
|
|
|
to me the fact that it's an "illustration" means that you can feel free to modify and negotiate it still
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 12:32
|
|
|
Welp in a sudden turn of events, they bumped me up to $90,000. With the benefits adjustment, it looks like I can continue to max out my retirement contributions and end up with more take-home pay at the same time - so I'm now coming out better than at my current gig. I literally can't believe they did that, but it looks like I'm finally escaping hell and getting a better deal at the same time. I'll take a look through the final offer letter to make sure there's no funny business and that I can get my time off before starting, but drat. Thanks for all the insight and help everyone, it looks like everything's coming together.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 21:15
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2020 22:07
|
|
|
Happy for ya!
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2020 02:00
|
|
|
Hell yeah that's awesome
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2020 03:47
|
|
|
This thread continues to be the best!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 08:35
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:Welp in a sudden turn of events, they bumped me up to $90,000. With the benefits adjustment, it looks like I can continue to max out my retirement contributions and end up with more take-home pay at the same time - so I'm now coming out better than at my current gig. Congratulations, really happy for you to get out of such a lovely environment while improving your pay as well. Thread delivers once again!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 13:13
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:Welp in a sudden turn of events, they bumped me up to $90,000. With the benefits adjustment, it looks like I can continue to max out my retirement contributions and end up with more take-home pay at the same time - so I'm now coming out better than at my current gig. Well done! Do you understand why they gave you 12.5% more than they initially wanted to?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 15:34
|
|
|
Oh! oh! Is it because they value their employees and want to compensate them properly?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 16:05
|
|
|
I'm a Sales Engineer at a tech startup, and I just got an offer that is a 45% increase in my base salary! Here are the things that I think helped me get a better number than I wanted: - I was working with a recruiter, who was the go-between for negotiations. I have had some bad experiences with recruiters, so I was initially skeptical, but this recruiter was actually worth it. I only mention this because most are not, but there are good ones. I wouldn't suggest this to everyone, but finding a recruiter you work well with and is honest with you can really help. - I had some numbers in mind. I had decided what I think I should be paid, what I'd be happy with, and what some of the percentages are of my current base and bonus structure. This was important for the next point: - I didn't say a number first. This was very hard for me, as I like giving direct answers when I get direct questions, and the first direct question was from the recruiter about what I was looking for. I was able to be vague enough to say that I felt like I was underpaid and I'm looking for an increase in base salary. This was enough for the recruiter to then mention the OTE target that the company had and that it was usually a 60/40 split with base/bonus. This base was below my target number but the OTE was much higher than I was expecting (since my current pay is more like 80/20). I told them that I was looking for a higher base pay, so I was able to state my target as 80% of that OTE, even though that was a higher base pay than I originally had in my head as my "happy number". Being able to get their OTE number and then work off of that using what I already knew about my pay was crucial. - During the interview process with the company, I never mentioned pay. Instead, I focused on the value I was bringing, the ways I would help the company, and how I was a strong fit and related my experience with what they were looking for. This seemed to pay off later, as the person who told me the final offer said "we didn't think we'd check all the boxes we were looking for, but we didn't have to compromise anything with you". I think my focus on fitting their business and company size helped, and my current work is in the same area so I could highlight that. - When I thought I was going to receive an offer, the recruiter mentioned that they don't think the company can come up to my number. I didn't say this, but I was fine with it since I had said a higher number than what I would have accepted. My number I told them was N, my "happy number" was N-20k, and the recruiter said she expected them to only come up to N-10k, which was still a 33% increase of my current base pay. However, their final offer did come in at N, which means my "say a higher number than you want" actually paid off. Ultimately, I feel like I won, and I think they feel like they won. My base pay increased 45%, and they are paying the same OTE that they expected to pay (based on what I know) with just a different base/bonus structure. Not saying a number is the first rule of negotiations, but it's also one of the hardest things to do if you don't do these kinds of negotiations often. In my case though, it's responsible for at least an additional 10%, if not more.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 16:27
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:Well done! I have no idea. I haven't gotten the final written offer from them yet, so I'm half-expecting them to renege or pull some funny business, but we'll see. The key thing at this point is the time off between jobs - if they can't give me that, I'd almost rather just be unemployed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 19:36
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:I have no idea. I haven't gotten the final written offer from them yet, so I'm half-expecting them to renege or pull some funny business, but we'll see. The key thing at this point is the time off between jobs - if they can't give me that, I'd almost rather just be unemployed. It's because they understand your goal ($120k) and while they want to spend $80k on you, they want to spend $90k on you more than they want to spend $0 on getting nothing. You communicated what you were looking for (more), and you didn't bend over backwards to make things work with their goal, so they're capitulating to move closer to your goal. They believe that you won't take the $80k offer, and they don't have another option that is better than you at $90k. The reason I am specifically focusing on you understanding this is because you haven't really been in the walk from a bad offer mindset, in this thread, but by being aloof and stating a goal for them to meet, they moved toward that goal to secure your employment. Yes, you really can't stand working at your day job right now, but they can't stand not having a Senior Sysadmin even more. You successfully faked it to the tune of $10k. Which is the first step in 'fake it till you make it'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2020 20:38
|
|
|
So just got a somewhat confusing offer for about 12.5k over my initial counter. I spoke to a recruiter who game me their range, I said the avg. salary for this position is higher and I know the company can afford it, especially for a contract only role, so let's go with $x per hour. I hear nothing for about 6 weeks until another recruiter from the same company contacts me about the same role and mentioned her coworker spoke to me some time ago. "So we had several positions open up that meet your target, is $x+6 per hour still accurate?" "Uh... Yeah that's right" "great I'll go ahead and move forward with an interview." I mean I feel like I won so it's a victory even if I left money on the table, but I'm pretty sure this thread just got me an extra 12.5k for a position I was interested in taking regardless. So thank you to the several posters that gave me advice, I greatly appreciate it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 23:24
|
|
|
Parallelwoody posted:So just got a somewhat confusing offer for about 12.5k over my initial counter. I spoke to a recruiter who game me their range, I said the avg. salary for this position is higher and I know the company can afford it, especially for a contract only role, so let's go with $x per hour. I hear nothing for about 6 weeks until another recruiter from the same company contacts me about the same role and mentioned her coworker spoke to me some time ago. "So we had several positions open up that meet your target, is $x+6 per hour still accurate?" "Uh... Yeah that's right" "great I'll go ahead and move forward with an interview." I mean I feel like I won so it's a victory even if I left money on the table, but I'm pretty sure this thread just got me an extra 12.5k for a position I was interested in taking regardless. So thank you to the several posters that gave me advice, I greatly appreciate it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 12:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 10:33 |
|
|
just lol if you get COLAs but that's great, mr woody!
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 15:03
|
|