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I Before E posted:You're right, but I think MRT was asking a different question, about bringing in someone as an on air figure specifically to capitalize their role as a shock jock or associated cultural figure, rather than the slow magazine editor to booker to on air figure path Russo took. There is sadly no audio of his radio show but I think it had kind of shock jock elements so it's a very creative answer and I'd like to say it is true... Although when he was hired by the WWF the product really sucked so I don't think we can count it no matter what you think about the quality of his booking a few years later.
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Oct 21, 2020 00:49
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MassRafTer posted:There is sadly no audio of his radio show but I think it had kind of shock jock elements so it's a very creative answer and I'd like to say it is true... The show was basically (and, IIRC, by Russo's own admission), cosplaying Howard Stern as the host of a wrestling -centric show for kids. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about what the hell was really going on: It's forgotten now, but everyone was convinced in '92-'93 that he had been bought off by the WWF and that they may have even been paying for his airtime, especially once he got his parachute at WWF Magazine. He claimed in his first book that they had offered to pay for the time, but he decided against it because...actually, it's not really clear. IIRC, he said that he figured they could pull the money at a moment's notice once they had him on their side, but that doesn't really explain why, if he wasn't opposed, he wouldn't try. (Or why he wouldn't just ask them to prepay for X number of weeks.) As weird and childish as WWF Magazine could be pre-Russo, the people who staffed it before his tenure were at least nominally legitimate writers and whose work read nothing like his output. Hiring someone whose main qualification was "wrote infamously bad columns for a short-lived newsletter that were only notable for how many complaints his business partner received," even for WWF magazine, first as a writer and then as an editor, was...kind of weird. I've never researched the other WWF Magazine staffers, but I know that when I was researching my WBF article for FSM, I learned that they had hired a former Playgirl editor as the Bodybuilding Lifestyles/WBF Magazine editor in chief. So in the same era, they were definitely looking towards experienced magazine types under normal circumstances.
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Oct 21, 2020 01:32
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So, I know NJPW and MMA crossing over is generally thought of as being an Inokism thing purely, but Kidani was a bit of an MMA liker for a bit there too, wasn't he? What kinda stuff did he do to cross MMA into NJPW, I know I've heard stuff but I've forgotten it.
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Oct 21, 2020 02:04
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MJeff posted:So, I know NJPW and MMA crossing over is generally thought of as being an Inokism thing purely, but Kidani was a bit of an MMA liker for a bit there too, wasn't he? What kinda stuff did he do to cross MMA into NJPW, I know I've heard stuff but I've forgotten it. Using Sakuraba and Shibata as Laughter7 which was very good and successful, and then bringing in the Gracies which was not. The former were very skilled pro wrestlers, so Sakuraba worked really well in big matches with his name and Shibata was obviously one of the best.
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Oct 21, 2020 02:13
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Who was the masked writer who wrote bits for old Deadspin about 5ish years ago? They were really good for this semi-lapsed fan to read back then. But then he stopped and I never really tried to follow.
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Oct 21, 2020 02:16
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Nystral posted:Who was the masked writer who wrote bits for old Deadspin about 5ish years ago? They were really good for this semi-lapsed fan to read back then. But then he stopped and I never really tried to follow. David Shoemaker?
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Oct 21, 2020 02:17
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MJeff posted:So, I know NJPW and MMA crossing over is generally thought of as being an Inokism thing purely, but Kidani was a bit of an MMA liker for a bit there too, wasn't he? What kinda stuff did he do to cross MMA into NJPW, I know I've heard stuff but I've forgotten it. From what I remember reading, Kidani brought in Sakuraba & Shibata consulting Gedo/Jado, with the intention of an NWO/UWFi style invasion angle. That was at the 2012 G1. They were booked strong for the rest of the year, going undefeated in 6 tag matches, then at WK7 Shibata loses to Makabe & Sakuraba loses to Nakamura & in the following couple of days Kidani steps down as Chairman of NJPW to focus on Bushiroad. The story that came out in the aftermath was that Kidani wanted them to win, there was somewhat of a rebellion with the locker room & bookers nixing it. I know there was a lot of heat on Shibata for bailing in the 2000s rather than staying loyal but at least on that Kidani was proven right. Laughter7 were a good tag team, Shibata loving rules, Sakuraba rules
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Oct 21, 2020 02:25
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Nystral posted:Who was the masked writer who wrote bits for old Deadspin about 5ish years ago? They were really good for this semi-lapsed fan to read back then. But then he stopped and I never really tried to follow. The Deadspin stuff was really good and well-researched, to the point that a bunch of people, myself included, were convinced he must have been a DVDVR forum regular in the past. When Bill Simmons hired him for Grantland, the seams started to show. The "Dead Wrestler of the Week" format, I guess, had provided a structure, maybe by way of its research requirements, that made him come off a lot more knowledgable than he actually is/was. He had impeccable timing, though, writing regularly about wrestling in really good columns on a site everyone in sports media reads, right as ESPN gave noted wrestling fan Bill Simmons a prestige fiefdom to himself. That all made sense. But then he started writing more than just focused bios of dead wrestlers. While he absolutely is an excellent writer—strictly as a writer, he's probably the best covering wrestling with any regularity—he was constantly pushed as an expert when it turned out that his actual knowledge was shockingly shallow. The big one I always point to, because it's pretty memorable, is this one from his and Simmons' WWE Network launch reaction roundtable: https://grantland.com/features/welcome-to-the-wwe-network/ ...you’ll find more Owen Hart matches than you can count. I just clicked on a random one — it’s Owen and the British Bulldog vs. Doug Furnas and Philip Lafon from In Your House 13 in ’97. Furnas and Lafon are two French wrestlers who made the WWF because they were looking for any spark they could find back then. OK, look. It's fine to not know exactly who Furnas and Lafon are. And saying Lafon is "French" and not "French-Canadian" is the type of mistake that can just happen sometimes. But if you know at all who Doug Furnas is, you know drat well that he's not French. He's a dude from Oklahoma. And that's to say nothing of his description that they "made the WWF because they were looking for any spark they could find back then." Like...what? It's fine not to know things, but he had (and presumably still has) a terrible tendency to spout off like an authority when he clearly has no earthly idea what he was talking about. See HBO's Simmons-produced Andre The Giant documentary, where Shoemaker is the lead "historian" voice in a documentary that also featured extensive interviews with Dave Meltzer and Pat Laprade. It also didn't help that Simmons routinely blew smoke up his rear end about how he had never seen anyone write "seriously" about wrestling before. (Simmons is a decades-long Observer subscriber.) I don't know how "casual wrestling fan who happens to be an excellent writer pretending to be a subject matter expert on pro wrestling" materialized as a lucrative gig for him (other than the aforementioned timing), but it's a deeply weird niche to occupy. I think it appeals to Simmons in the very specific way that he has some WEIRD surface level ideas of his own that have no relation to reality. Just read him answering a letter about why he hates Bret Hart, mixing regurgitated nonsense WWE history with a bizarre comparison that frames Curt Hennig as the Tom Hanks to Bret's Michael Keaton: https://grantland.com/features/the-summer-no-mailbag/ (I'm not pasting the whole 5 paragraph section.) Back to Shoemaker, he also got a deal for a (terrible, error-riddle) wrestling history book that he likely got a big advance for—his publisher promoted the HELL out of it. You've never seen a random wrestling writer do so much media. It was fascinating. Searching through my old tweets from before I gave up on ever reading his stuff several years ago, here's a selection of lowlights: https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/399265822268743680 After the Network business plan had been widely reported: https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/399268335478910976 During the Andre doc: https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/983892594064281600 Do I have a degree of professional jealousy that my similar Deadspin freelance wrestling columnist gig didn't earn me a shiny staff job anywhere? Sure, it's only natural. But even if none of that was in play, I'd have the same basic assessment of him.
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Oct 21, 2020 03:29
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so he's like if Kefin Mahon was a writer instead of a podcaster
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Oct 21, 2020 03:34
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The highlight of Shoemaker's career is libelling Wade Keller, having to retract it and in his retraction proceeding to libel Bruce Mitchell, all to impress HHH during an interview. It ruled.
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Oct 21, 2020 03:35
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Shoemaker is dumb as poo poo
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Oct 21, 2020 03:40
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MassRafTer posted:The highlight of Shoemaker's career is libelling Wade Keller, having to retract it and in his retraction proceeding to libel Bruce Mitchell, all to impress HHH during an interview. It ruled. The interview: https://grantland.com/features/an-interview-wwe-superstar-corporate-officer-triple-h/ Wade's response: https://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Ask_the_Editor_18/article_72875.shtml#.X4-gFS2ZPoA A blog that lays everything out, including Meltzer's comments on the tiff: https://fightgamemedia.com/2013/08/triple-h-hates-dirt-sheets/ Grantland folded 2 years later, but ESPN has kept all of the archives up. Another 5 years after that, the "correction" that mentioned just the "DDP called Bruce, not Wade" part (and not the "most of this didn't happen" part) is still up. ESPN is exceptionally weird about corrections, even by legacy media standards, but still...
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Oct 21, 2020 03:46
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https://twitter.com/epitasis/status/474297086410625024?s=21 like bix said he actually is a good columnist in terms of like writing artfully. the real issue is he learned wrestling strictly from watching wwe tv which means he just fundamentally does not understand wrestling, in addition to the lack of specific knowledge. if he studied meltzer for like a year that might help but i feel like simmons must have been a guy who read meltzer for scoops and juicy gossip and i cant imagine that office is interested in like the majority of the business coverage he actually does
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Oct 21, 2020 05:13
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actually this is a question related to what i said earlier Anyone who listened to the Attitude Era podcast, when did you stop listening to the Attitude Era podcast?
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Oct 21, 2020 05:28
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When Kefin Mahon started going "waaaheeeeeeeen" every episode, impersonating a guitar.
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Oct 21, 2020 05:57
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forkboy84 posted:From what I remember reading, Kidani brought in Sakuraba & Shibata consulting Gedo/Jado, with the intention of an NWO/UWFi style invasion angle. That was at the 2012 G1. They were booked strong for the rest of the year, going undefeated in 6 tag matches, then at WK7 Shibata loses to Makabe & Sakuraba loses to Nakamura & in the following couple of days Kidani steps down as Chairman of NJPW to focus on Bushiroad. The story that came out in the aftermath was that Kidani wanted them to win, there was somewhat of a rebellion with the locker room & bookers nixing it. I know there was a lot of heat on Shibata for bailing in the 2000s rather than staying loyal but at least on that Kidani was proven right. Laughter7 were a good tag team, Shibata loving rules, Sakuraba rules While I do think Kidani got told to hold off on the MMA stuff I think the heat the locker room had with Shibata/Sakuraba was just Tanahashi/Gedo working people.
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Oct 21, 2020 06:10
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gently caress. I can't believe I also forgot this one. Massive brainfarts happen, but...right after the show? Which I think he went to live? The in-house "wrestling expert" writer is gonna be deferred to a LOT at a mainstream site unless the person actually editing the article is a big fan. Like, thank God David Roth found this stuff as interesting as he did without being much of a wrestling fan.but it was a MUCH different experience from when former tape trader/massive '90s AJPW fan Tim Marchman was editing me. So anyway, if you're spaced out for some reason, weird poo poo can happen, like when I did that Fyter Fest preview where, in spite of having the lineup in front of me, I somehow switched...Emi Sakura and Yuka Sakazaki, I think? And I knew who was who! (Freddie Mercury and Magical Girl, respectively.) I just had a *massive* brainfart. But...Liger and Ultimo? Right after a show that he attended live with constant loud "LIGER!" chants? WHAT?!?!? "Brainfart" is probably the most likely explanation in that specific case, but it doesn't stop that error from being super weird. (Plus he was talking about a slam dunk hall of famer legend in Liger transposed him with a contemporary of his that's also a beloved legend all over the world. As opposed to indie wrestlers appearing in the U.S. for the first time.) IOW: I completely gave up reading his stuff in frustration years ago, so I have no idea how it's been the last few years as he's written less and focused more on editing/art/podcasting/whatever. But...the thing that always struck me as bizarre about him was that the stuff he got wrong was not stuff that a fan as hardcore as he presented himself would ever get wrong. And that's just loving weird and off-putting to me, in part because I have no idea how that's a recipe for success past the "excellent writer with a clear talent for selling editors and publishers on his variety of wrestling stuff" part. quote:like bix said he actually is a good columnist in terms of like writing artfully. the real issue is he learned wrestling strictly from watching wwe tv which means he just fundamentally does not understand wrestling, in addition to the lack of specific knowledge. if he studied meltzer for like a year that might help but i feel like simmons must have been a guy who read meltzer for scoops and juicy gossip and i cant imagine that office is interested in like the majority of the business coverage he actually does On various forums, including PWO, there was a British guy named Parv (username JerryVonKramer, IIRC) who seemed to want to learn but would just kind of...assume everything that ever happened in wrestling happened in a way that directly paralleled Hulkamania-era WWF. I don't know if I can explain it especially well without driving myself insane looking up old examples, but this guy would start watching pre-Hogan MSG shows and somehow extrapolate a bunch of nonsense based on applying a business model with quarterly PPVs to a regional promotion. It's not a direct comparison, but I get a similar vibe from both Parv and Shoemaker. I wish the guy *wasn't* so out to lunch, because he really is an excellent writer
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Oct 21, 2020 07:01
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Alaois posted:actually this is a question related to what i said earlier
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Oct 21, 2020 09:01
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Alaois posted:actually this is a question related to what i said earlier It got less entertaining after Russo left WWE
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Oct 21, 2020 10:02
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SatoshiMiwa posted:While I do think Kidani got told to hold off on the MMA stuff I think the heat the locker room had with Shibata/Sakuraba was just Tanahashi/Gedo working people. Didn't Shibata have heat over killing that guy accidentally
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Oct 21, 2020 12:38
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Didn't Shibata have heat over killing that guy accidentally Are you thinking of Kensuke Sasaki? I've heard nothing of Shibata being involved with dojo "incidents."
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Oct 21, 2020 12:55
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davidbix posted:On various forums, including PWO, there was a British guy named Parv (username JerryVonKramer, IIRC) who seemed to want to learn but would just kind of...assume everything that ever happened in wrestling happened in a way that directly paralleled Hulkamania-era WWF. I don't know if I can explain it especially well without driving myself insane looking up old examples, but this guy would start watching pre-Hogan MSG shows and somehow extrapolate a bunch of nonsense based on applying a business model with quarterly PPVs to a regional promotion. Ok, I’m definitely a lot more interested in this guy than Shoemaker now.
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Oct 21, 2020 13:30
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Didn't Shibata have heat over killing that guy accidentally Nah, Shibata's heat was jumping from NJPW, doing some MMA and then being the ace for the best named wrestling group ever, Big Mouth Loud (if you've never seen the BML match between Shibata and Satoshi Kojima while the latter was at the height of his powers it is on YouTube and I really recommend it). Tana got a bee in his bonnet about it.
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Oct 21, 2020 13:36
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Benne posted:Are you thinking of Kensuke Sasaki? I've heard nothing of Shibata being involved with dojo "incidents." It wasn't a dojo accident, he hit a guy with an elbow drop in a match and the guy died when he was a young lion
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Oct 21, 2020 14:09
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MassRafTer posted:Have shock jocks or shock jock sidekicks ever been used in a wrestling promotion that was currently "good." Like, a show most fans liked at the time, not were the shock jocks used well. Don't forget Scorch aka Vito Carlucci got Triple H his start in wrestling: https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1069829150209425408?s=20 (Not really but he tells everyone that)
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Oct 23, 2020 00:18
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Didn't Shoemaker do that piece on Cody after he left WWE but before AEW was a thing? The article that taught us, among other things, that HHH has no interest in the concept of meritocracy. ('We all have a role to play')
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Oct 23, 2020 08:48
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How do you guys feel about the separation between performing and off-duty for wrestling? Pre-pandemic I started going to shows in Malaysia and Singapore by the local wrestling groups, and there's a very clear line between "The show is on now, everyone has to play their part" and "The show is over, let's give a round of appreciation to all our performers!" Everyone just kind of mills about post-show to talk to fans, photo ops, sell merch, most of the time dropping their character in the process. Personally, I appreciate the distinction. Makes it feel a bit like theatre; the show is over, now give kudos to the people that spent their time and effort to produce a great live experience.
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Oct 23, 2020 12:13
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Artelier posted:How do you guys feel about the separation between performing and off-duty for wrestling? I think it depends on the environment and the individual performer. One of the first indie shows I ever went to, Johnny Devine had a barnburner, went to the back, and came out and sat with fans the rest of the show. The next show he got a title shot against Dr.Luther, the promotion was run by Don Callis.
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Oct 23, 2020 12:26
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https://twitter.com/sirlariato/status/1319515895237087233?s=21 Is a Tijeras the same as a headscissors or is there some distinction
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Oct 23, 2020 16:16
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Tijeras are essentially the same type of move though the traditional headscissors takeovers in American professional wrestling are a little different. Tijeras also literally translates to scissors.
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Oct 23, 2020 18:26
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So when people, either jokingly or seriously, talk about 80s Hogan being a heel because of some of his common moves, they mention how he loved to use the back rake. I can understand eye rakes being illegal like any move that goes for the eye but are back rakes illegal? Why would they be? What makes the move heelish?
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Oct 24, 2020 06:16
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Even though it's clearly not what they're ACTUALLY doing, the whole idea of a back rake is that you're digging your nails into their skin and trying to tear it - basically it's illegal for the same reason a bite should be: you're supposed to be fighting, not biting and scratching.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:21
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Also, even if scratching didn't go against the spirit of a good clean fight, you're still attacking the other guy from behind for the sole purpose of doing something that just hurts like hell. It's not a move that feels good to cheer for.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:33
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I was at a show the other day and Tsukasa Fujimoto (who is ostensibly a face) kept using a back rake directly on Rina Yamashita's deathmatch scars. I could not clap for that.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:46
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I just saw a few clips from late ‘94 and Jarrett already has the Roadie, but doesn’t the whole “Road Dogg ditches JJ and Rockabilly ditches Honky Tonk Man” and the subsequent formation of the New Age Outlaws not happen until late ‘97? That’s a long loving time.
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Oct 24, 2020 15:39
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Jarrett left to wcw in 95 and road Dogg left for awhile as well. He came back in mid/late 96 I think.
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Oct 24, 2020 15:48
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Pope Corky the IX posted:I just saw a few clips from late ‘94 and Jarrett already has the Roadie, but doesn’t the whole “Road Dogg ditches JJ and Rockabilly ditches Honky Tonk Man” and the subsequent formation of the New Age Outlaws not happen until late ‘97? That’s a long loving time. No. Roadie bails in late 95 with JJ, comes back in '96 as "The Real Double J" claiming he sang "With My Baby Tonight", flounders as a JTTS for a while, then after turning down HTM as a manager, he approaches Billy and the Outlaws form.
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Oct 24, 2020 15:50
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Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Like, was Honky Tonk Man a good worker, or just a good character? (Or neither).
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Oct 24, 2020 19:38
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Good character, played perfectly. As for his in-ring skill, he was "eh". Which is funny watching his old matches and hearing Jesse Ventura call him a technical wrestler. He could brawl, and sell, but not much else.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:40
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Abdullah the Butcher had an amazing character/gimmick but his matches were very much bleah
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Oct 24, 2020 19:40
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