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Jarmak posted:Everyone understands the arguement you're making, it's some sort of shitposter version of afffluenza where everyone has gotten use to the standard that if they ignore the rules they'll just get a slap on the wrist so how can anyone expect them to follow the rules? Yes, that is the complaint and it is an understandable one because from the perspective of the complainant the standards have suddenly shifted, sometimes after literal years. I don't personally give a poo poo how the boards are modded, I've seen every strategy and style under the sun and they all have their problems and different lines to toe. I WOULD like to be see people complain less, and my observations are with that in mind. EDIT: Obviously it was a tactical error to use the first person when attempting to elucidate this concern since now everyone can make it seem like I am the shitposter who is mad about being punished instead of acknowledging that uneven enforcement causes problems. Crumbskull fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 22, 2020 19:22
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Crumbskull posted:Yes, that is the complaint and it is an understandable one because from the perspective of the complainant the standards have suddenly shifted, sometimes after literal years. I don't personally give a poo poo how the boards are modded, I've seen every strategy and style under the sun and they all have their problems and different lines to toe. I WOULD like to be see people complain less, and my observations are with that in mind. I mean, the issue is that on one hand we aren't allowed to use previous probes as reason to increase punishment because the previous mods sucked, but on the other hand we have to stick to the existing structures of punishment because we don't want to be inconsistent. Pick one, you can't have both. If the previous form of moderation was insufficient and inconsistent, then there is no better time than now to decide on a new standard, and mods that weren't around at the time of the previous standard don't need to explain why their decisions are different. This thread is the communication that the standards are now being enforced, it existed as a pin before the forum ban that people are talking about, I have no clue about any PM communication or the like but if the expectation is that every single bad poster has to be specifically taken aside and spoken to before any actual punishment happens then that's a lot of work to put on the mod team
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Oct 22, 2020 22:52
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BougieBitch posted:I have no clue about any PM communication or the like but if the expectation is that every single bad poster has to be specifically taken aside and spoken to before any actual punishment happens then that's a lot of work to put on the mod team Kinda seems like no one is suggesting this and you just made it up?
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Oct 23, 2020 01:18
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Crane Fist posted:Kinda seems like no one is suggesting this and you just made it up? Crumbskull posted:If building a huge rapsheet by walking the line amd getting occasionally probed for the kind of posts you routinely make and don't get probed for is going to start equalling forum bans thats fine, but it hasn't been that way for years so its probably appropriate to tell people first. 'Hes been getting timeouts for three years so he should have known this was coming' is exactly wrong, its BECAUSE hes been getting timeouts for three years that the ban appears capricious and unexpected. Also, I still think its an unadressed factor in these situations where someone can raise legitimate arguments over and over only to be dismissed by people holding more conventional wisdom as an idiot, liar, secret conservative, etc. over and over and that poster gets increasingly confrontational and sarcastic in advancing their arguments because it seems like raising them obliquely and in a baiting way is the only tactic that might actually get people to engage. I echo the concerns of other posters pointing out that some people on this board are required to have A LOT more patience than others to avoid punishment. Like, if a pinned thread clarifying the rules isn't enough, what does "telling people" look like, just so we are clear? Edit: Basically, it seems like no matter when they started doing actual enforcement the first person to actually face a consequence was going to feel targeted, but this thread was posted in advance of that and I'm not sure what else a warning that the rules as-written were actually going to be upheld would look like OTHER than this thread. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 01:38
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I mean you said "every single bad poster has to be specifically taken aside and spoken to before any actual punishment happens" which is transparently stupid and no one is suggesting? For extreme actions like a total forum ban on someone it seems like the thing to do would be shoot them a PM and be like "we're going to escalate beyond probes if you keep this up", but no one is saying we need to do that for every punishment- like who is going to bother PMing people before probing them for a day
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Oct 23, 2020 03:19
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I say we probe 'em all and let god sort 'em out.
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Oct 23, 2020 06:04
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Crane Fist posted:I mean you said "every single bad poster has to be specifically taken aside and spoken to before any actual punishment happens" which is transparently stupid and no one is suggesting? For extreme actions like a total forum ban on someone it seems like the thing to do would be shoot them a PM and be like "we're going to escalate beyond probes if you keep this up", but no one is saying we need to do that for every punishment- like who is going to bother PMing people before probing them for a day What, exactly, is extreme about a forum ban? Like, if we all agree that a 6er is basically nothing, that makes a 1-day probe the lower floor for what could be termed a consequence at all, and to me a forum ban is in this vague space probably greater than a week, less than a full ban, and either on par with or less than a month. If not being allowed to shout your political opinions at someone is really so daunting then pay $10 for an alt and try to be less acrimonious, it's not like you are being threatened with jail time or something Again, the poster in question received multiple lengthy probes, like this isn't some sort of surprise escalation where somehow a 6er transformed into a ban Edit: Also, let's be clear my statement was "every bad poster" not "every bad post", someone who gets a single 1-day ban is probably not a "bad poster" even if they made a "bad post" Either way, pretty big jump from "you literally made that up" to "actually the thing I said you made up is exactly what I meant" BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 06:41
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I think a forum ban could easily be worse than a ban. You're free to re-reg post-ban, right? In effect, bans basically become "pay a $10 fine for your lovely posting", whereas with a forum ban, you just plain can't post in that forum anymore (outside of registering an alt and hoping no one figures out who you are).
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Oct 23, 2020 12:17
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enki42 posted:I think a forum ban could easily be worse than a ban. You're free to re-reg post-ban, right? In effect, bans basically become "pay a $10 fine for your lovely posting", whereas with a forum ban, you just plain can't post in that forum anymore (outside of registering an alt and hoping no one figures out who you are).
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Oct 23, 2020 14:55
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, a forum ban is effectively a forum-specific (soft) permaban. Maybe you can convince people that you've reformed, but the barrier is much higher than it is for a ban for anyone with disposable income. Is that really true though? Like, this is a tool that has not been used that often, I don't think there's anything but anecdotal evidence for it one way or the other. Given that it seems we have a totally new mod team about every 6 months I don't think it's as permanent as people are making it out to be, and if you are the kind of shitposter that gets kicked out of D&D then just go post in whatever the equivalent GBS threads are, the bar for getting probed there for low-effort posts is way higher and you might actually be posting at someone that doesn't agree that Bernie should have won Edit: I honestly don't have enough context to really defend my point here on forum bans, my impression was that it was not a thing that was done formally before ~2-3 years ago and I'm assuming the number of people with an active forum ban for DnD is in the teens, so trying to draw some general conclusion from that seems silly, it's the definition of a "case-by-case basis" punishment. As far as I know there isn't some master list of people who aren't allowed to post here that is viewable by non-mods, but if I'm wrong (either about such a list existing or the number of people on it) then correct me on that, because it would potentially reverse my position. As far as most of the people that draw mod ire lately, I don't expect they will have much of anything to get riled up about once the election is over and there are no stakes/minds to try to change, so it seems plausible to me that come November 5th or January 21st the probes will stop flying so fast and the usual suspects might be permitted back in on probation or whatever. This is literally the thread for it, so if your issue with forums bans as a step is that they are permanent then just say so, like this is exactly the point of the thread BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 15:49
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BougieBitch posted:What, exactly, is extreme about a forum ban? Like, if we all agree that a 6er is basically nothing, that makes a 1-day probe the lower floor for what could be termed a consequence at all, and to me a forum ban is in this vague space probably greater than a week, less than a full ban, and either on par with or less than a month. If not being allowed to shout your political opinions at someone is really so daunting then pay $10 for an alt and try to be less acrimonious, it's not like you are being threatened with jail time or something I'm not talking about a specific poster or litigating anything that has happened in the past buddy. Also, I don't believe this thread is a sticky that explains the new enforcement regime, but I agree that a locked sticky that did would be sufficient to establish new guidelines for enforcement as long as the mods followed them consistently moving forward. I feel like people are reading me as saying the opposite of what I am saying. What I am saying is: currently the way things are done is counter-productive (and I don't care). If you want a more productive strategy then clearly lay out new, stricter guidelines and enforce them consistently (if you do care). EDIT: Yea, usually being banned from a sub is permanent. That is really true.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:01
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The idea behind a forum-ban is that if someone's consistently an issue in just one forum, it's better to just lock them out of the one forum and let them continue to post on the rest of SA, as opposed to temporarily locking them out of SA as a whole with a probe. Forumbans haven't been a common tool up to now, but if someone's consistently eating probes in just one part of the forums, the current admins are big fans of using targeted measures like threadbans/forumbans instead of forums-wide tools like long probations or bans.
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Oct 23, 2020 18:27
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great work with the IKs, team
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Oct 23, 2020 20:54
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:great work with the IKs, team bang up job, fellas 
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Oct 23, 2020 22:11
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I've come to the conclusion that the problems with D&D moderation are coming from the top and threads like this are probably entirely pointless
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Oct 23, 2020 22:34
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This might sound odd but I think the SA Admins despite their faults, mistakes, etc. literally do a better job of moderation than the entirety of Facebook.
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Oct 23, 2020 22:43
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Gabriel S. posted:This might sound odd but I think the SA Admins despite their faults, mistakes, etc. literally do a better job of moderation than the entirety of Facebook.
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Oct 23, 2020 22:48
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Gabriel S. posted:This might sound odd but I think the SA Admins despite their faults, mistakes, etc. literally do a better job of moderation than the entirety of Facebook.
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Oct 23, 2020 23:02
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D&D needs fewer mods just from an aesthetic standpoint. On the main forums directory, the row for D&D is taller than all the rest because of all the mods, and it's really pissing me off.
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Oct 23, 2020 23:12
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:yeah I love that after all the qcs feedback, and the ramping thread, and all the other busybody bullshit that it was obvious they were never going to actually pay attention to, the first order of business is to just do the thing they were talking about before all this feedback poo poo, and that is to make 700b - a poster who embodies pretty much all the problems with the moderation here, on steroids - a mod This is the best endorsement I could possibly see for 700b being an IK.
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Oct 23, 2020 23:18
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This isn't the topic of this thread, but we are still looking for more mods and IKs. The current ones were selected in coordination with ath, so feel free to pm them or us for nominations. We're going to talk about the feedback received here probably over the weekend and talk about our proposals Soon.
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Oct 23, 2020 23:20
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Absolutely don't have a clique war over this nonsense here. If you think 700bs does something concerning please pm a dnd mod or an admin.
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Oct 23, 2020 23:21
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World Famous W posted:Now thats just mean But true. Zuckerberg's literally take on Free Speech is that it's unlimited and Facebook is apolitical. But everything is political! It's unavoidable. I'm a little perplexed what the outcome here is after re-reading this thread twice but any kind of permaban, ban, sub forum or thread ban ought to be used extremely rarely. I'd prefer probes go from 6 hours, a day, a week, two weeks, etc. It's no surprise people don't like specific posters but I also recognize people sometimes do change over time and we ought to give them a chance. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 02:16
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Gabriel S. posted:But true. Zuckerberg's literally take on Free Speech is that it's unlimited and Facebook is apolitical. But everything is political! It's unavoidable. post youre spreadsheet
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Oct 24, 2020 02:34
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Hi folks, since I have my account back, a couple thoughts:fool of sound posted:Absolutely don't have a clique war over this nonsense here. If you think 700bs does something concerning please pm a dnd mod or an admin. “Clique war” is a good term. If the mods want to make the next couple weeks bearable, for themselves and for most people in D&D, they should do their best to crack down on clique wars as much as possible. That goes for leftists and liberals alike. No more using “lib” or “NoJoe” as epithets. It’s one thing to use it descriptively, ie: “that’s a liberal mindset” or “you’re a NoJoe, so I know you’re not going to vote for him, but...;” it’s another thing to use it to snipe at your enemies. That doesn’t lead to a good discussion. I’ve spent the last couple days lurking and also think that it would be a good idea to have a moratorium on any sort of voter shaming. Just kramering into a thread and posting a Contrapoints video that treats 3rd party voters condescendingly isn’t germane to a good discussion. It’s good to discourage leftists from saying “you’re a bad person for voting for Biden,” but that policy kind of has to cut both ways. If the rules aren’t evenly enforced, you breed cynicism and mistrust towards the mod staff. I’ll probably have more thoughts when I’m not phoneposting. Majorian fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 03:21
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I tried to have a discussion centred around that video and no one was particularly interested. 
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Oct 24, 2020 03:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:I tried to have a discussion centred around that video and no one was particularly interested. Yeah, and that was fine imo, but then like a page later, someone else also posted it, and seemed less interested in a discussion and more interested in, well, using it as a cudgel. Which brings me to another thing that I think can be worked on, in the Gen Election thread and in other threads in D&D: "read the thread before you post" really does need to be enforced. It's one thing to expect someone to read every single word in all 30000000+ pages of a big thread, but it's not particularly onerous to say, "Hey, you need to at least read the OP and then the past couple pages." It's not fair to expect someone in a thread who's been having the same emotionally fraught argument over a tough issue (which a lot of political topics are these days) to react courteously when someone else wanders in who clearly hasn't read the thread and starts wildly throwing out broad arguments that have already been amply addressed.
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Oct 24, 2020 04:31
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Majorian posted:Yeah, and that was fine imo, but then like a page later, someone else also posted it, and seemed less interested in a discussion and more interested in, well, using it as a cudgel. Wasn't "lurk more" one of the classic reasons for a probation in SA's past? I feel like that should definitely remain a big one for D&D. If you're not willing to read a thread and educate yourself on the state of the discussion, why do you feel the need to post in it? Yeah, maybe you don't need to read every fuckin' post, but the world is not crying out for every poster's input; if you're gonna throw down a hot take it behooves you to check and make sure that take is still even slightly warm. Also, if the thread is long, at least have some humility before something that seems like it might have been addressed earlier. "I just don't see how" is a really solid start to a post that will end with a reply "well you might if you'd bothered to read the thread."
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Oct 24, 2020 04:57
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fool of sound posted:Absolutely don't have a clique war over this nonsense here. If you think 700bs does something concerning please pm a dnd mod or an admin. Just an observation, I'm not fully versed in who's who when it comes to cliques, but if you know someone is part of a clique and the community picks someone from that clique to be in a position of power... wouldn't that set off an alarm bell in your head?
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Oct 24, 2020 11:23
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Freakazoid_ posted:Just an observation, I'm not fully versed in who's who when it comes to cliques, but if you know someone is part of a clique and the community picks someone from that clique to be in a position of power... wouldn't that set off an alarm bell in your head? No one self-identifies as being in a clique (I realize people draw the line in the sand with the NoJoe tag but the clique-posters are a subset not the entire group), so any accusations of clique-ish-ness would need to be supported by evidence of bias in probations or w/e. Presumably 700B hasn't gotten repeatedly probed for bad-faith arguments or the mod team wouldn't have made that choice, and IK is not really a meaningful position of power. All that aside, I think it wouldn't really matter if the IKs were clique-ish, so long as both cliques are represented and the mods are willing to boot them if they go on a crusade of mass probes. The vast majority of posters don't give a poo poo and don't stir up anything, so if the cliques want to play capture the flag or w/e in the quarantined threads while the rest of us follow the news as it happens more power to them
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Oct 24, 2020 19:06
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There’s a difference between “somebody who’s in a clique” and “somebody that a particular clique is united in hating”.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:13
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BougieBitch posted:All that aside, I think it wouldn't really matter if the IKs were clique-ish, so long as both cliques are represented and the mods are willing to boot them if they go on a crusade of mass probes. I think more genuinely leftist representation among the IKs and mods who regularly participate in the most active threads here would go a long way to keeping clique wars from breaking out or ballooning, yeah.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:07
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Majorian posted:I think more genuinely leftist representation among the IKs and mods who regularly participate in the most active threads here would go a long way to keeping clique wars from breaking out or ballooning, yeah. MPF and fos were absolutely leftist posters before they were mods. The only reason they're "not leftists" anymore is because leftist posters who break the rules constantly decided that they're biased against them. I'm sure the same thing will happen to the_steve eventually.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:11
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There probably shouldn't be anyone in authority with a specific ideological bent to be honest because that seems like a can of worms about accusations of bias. People who are picked to be IK's it seems to me are on a career track of sorts to become mods; and should be picked because they are able to try to remain above the fray and be unbiased and apply the rules evenly even if they dislike or personally disagree with the argument being made. That may not be perfect or practical in totality but it's at least the ideal we try to strive for.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:13
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Raenir Salazar posted:There probably shouldn't be anyone in authority with a specific ideological bent to be honest because that seems like a can of worms about accusations of bias. People who are picked to be IK's it seems to me are on a career track of sorts to become mods; and should be picked because they are able to try to remain above the fray and be unbiased and apply the rules evenly even if they dislike or personally disagree with the argument being made. Everyone has an ideological bent! Saying nonideological people exist is liberal ideology!
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Oct 24, 2020 20:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:There probably shouldn't be anyone in authority with a specific ideological bent to be honest because that seems like a can of worms about accusations of bias. In a vacuum, I'd agree with this. The problem is, "common wisdom" and the general consensus in any given space is inherently ideologically biased. That which is considered politically mainstream in neoliberal societies isn't non-ideological just because it's the societal model most people follow. So the moderators that existed here in D&D even before the current wave of IKs and promotions are still pretty ideologically biased - it just isn't as evident to people who already agree with their viewpoints.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:21
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We're all biased but as long as we recognize that bias and deal with it I think we should be fine if those folks are admins or IKs. For example, the earlier admin discussion on why it took so long to ban YMB while concerning isn't that disappointing because while that moderator while a had different judgement call was still able to overcome their own bias through listening to other admins and members. Any kind of significant ramping ought to include the consideration more than just one IK or admin. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 20:22
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Majorian posted:I think more genuinely leftist representation among the IKs and mods who regularly participate in the most active threads here would go a long way to keeping clique wars from breaking out or ballooning, yeah. thus further increasing demand for 'moderation' without any associated increase in subforum wellbeing baby's first critical theory of posting aside, deliberately embedding clique superusers is unlikely to succeed in your stated goal of *coughs, adjusts glasses* "keeping clique wars from breaking out or ballooning" Cefte fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 20:48
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Cefte posted:representationist arguments directed at the mod team concedes all pretense that moderation derives from pre-established rules and cements the principle that moderation is a tool to be used to win above and beyond actual posting Win what? This is a message board for posting about current events, not an ideological battlefield.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:52
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I feel like this might be a good time for me to step in and introduce myself as one of the new IKs. I'm not the most active poster in DND but I have been lurking these forums for close to twenty years now and have been a registered user for 13. As you may imagine, as a human being outside of SA I have had lots of experiences throughout that time that have shaped my worldviews and helped me grow as a person. When I first joined SA I still thought of myself as a conservative! For a long time I've found DND to be a great place to hear from people with experiences far different from my own and learn from them. I also feel like putting the Idiot back in Idiot King, and appreciate being able to learn from the knowledge and experiences of posters here who have better less smooth brains than yours truly. As someone whose views have gone further left than 13-years-ago DrNutt ever could have imagined, I empathize with folks all along the political spectrum gently caress chuds though and think the best we can do for each other here is to be patient and kind, and remember that for the most part, those on the other side of the keyboard are human beings. I do not have intentions of being heavy handed and mashing the probe button left and right to try and solve problems, but I do think that a six hour probation is very light punishment if it seems like you could use a break. Anyway, I'm gonna go back to mostly lurking, but just a friendly reminder that as currently IK's do not see reports, if you are having difficulty in a thread getting some sort of moderator response or you have direct feedback for me specifically, PMs are open.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:53
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