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Well gently caress me, thanks folks.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:41
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Ultimate Warrior.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:43
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Who has been removed from the NJPW parade of champions?
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Oct 24, 2020 19:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:Ultimate Warrior. Hogan and Warrior both fall under "Grade A gimmick, grade D worker, grade F human being" Bill Goldberg might be the most noteworthy case of Grade A gimmick/charisma/presence, Grade F- actual in-ring ability. Sure, he had three impressive-looking moves, but was absolute garbage when asked to do anything beyond that.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:47
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 19:53
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rujasu posted:Hogan and Warrior both fall under "Grade A gimmick, grade D worker, grade F human being" This isn't true at all. Goldberg could do some very fun grappling and throws and had some great power matches. Better wrestler than Warrior.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:54
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Undertaker was generally garbage in the ring until '96, but he played the gimmick perfectly from the beginning.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:04
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MassRafTer posted:This isn't true at all. Goldberg could do some very fun grappling and throws and had some great power matches. Better wrestler than Warrior. All the rad submissions they had him rolling into early on... Hell, the snap on his moves alone was another level. Goldberg had the potential to be an all time great. He weren't no Renegade or Elias
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Oct 24, 2020 20:22
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rujasu posted:Hogan and Warrior both fall under "Grade A gimmick, grade D worker, grade F human being" Don't wanna be all "look at Hogan in Japan", but the man could work on a passable level if he so chose to. Warrior, on the other hand, was the drizzling shits throughout his entire career, so I'd say he still takes it.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:27
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I think Hogan fundamentally understood how to wrestle, he just also understood all it took to get himself over.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:41
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Yeah, Hogan is probably the ur-case of a guy recognizing the exact bare minimum he had to do in the ring to stay over and then doing just that.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:45
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still came up with a finisher that destroyed his hip and rear end in a top hat. i wonder why he never just tried to transition to using the axe bomber as his main finisher stateside
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Oct 24, 2020 21:03
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JOHN CENA posted:still came up with a finisher that destroyed his hip and rear end in a top hat. i wonder why he never just tried to transition to using the axe bomber as his main finisher stateside Years of steroid abuse destroyed his body not the leg drop.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:07
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MassRafTer posted:Years of steroid abuse destroyed his body not the leg drop. yeah absolutely but the dropping onto his butthole every night on hard as rock boxing rings probably didnt help!
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Oct 24, 2020 21:30
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roddy piper has gotta be in the running for "worst worker with the best character" what did the guy do, punch, kick, figure four, eyepoke? thats not to say roddy piper is a bad pro wrestler just like, if we're talking "what they are capable of in the ring" he flies under the radar as pretty fuckin terrible.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:42
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shiksa posted:roddy piper has gotta be in the running for "worst worker with the best character" what did the guy do, punch, kick, figure four, eyepoke? thats not to say roddy piper is a bad pro wrestler just like, if we're talking "what they are capable of in the ring" he flies under the radar as pretty fuckin terrible. I feel like Piper mastered the WWF Attitude era style of working 12 years early.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:48
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Having a limited and unflashy moveset doesn't necessarily make you a bad worker though. Ishii is arguably the best worker in the world today and the flashiest move he uses is a freaking enzuigiri. In the case of Piper he had a great sense of timing and selling so he got a lot of mileage out of doing basic stuff.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:Having a limited and unflashy moveset doesn't necessarily make you a bad worker though. Ishii is arguably the best worker in the world today and the flashiest move he uses is a freaking enzuigiri. thats totally fair. and yeah, ishii has about 5 moves and is one of the best there is.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:00
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rujasu posted:Hogan and Warrior both fall under "Grade A gimmick, grade D worker, grade F human being" Goldberg was still pretty green in his initial push, and his matches almost all being squashes didn't help him learn, but I think he rose above that eventually. And it's worth noting how he could make those squashes entertaining, like he wasn't selling much but his offense looked great whoever he was against.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:05
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it ruled when goldberg would pull out a flip or some kind of disgusting looking kick in the late 90s
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Oct 24, 2020 22:17
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ChrisBTY posted:Didn't Shoemaker do that piece on Cody after he left WWE but before AEW was a thing? The article that taught us, among other things, that HHH has no interest in the concept of meritocracy. ('We all have a role to play') Great article. Shoemaker may very well have edited it, though.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:32
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It really was. I learned a lot. Mostly 'holy poo poo HHH will not even feign belief in a meritocracy'. HHH buried Matt Cardona and threw the brass ring in the fires of Mount Doom.
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Oct 25, 2020 02:14
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Goldberg vs DDP is a legitimate banger. Although this is probably more down to DDP choreographing the whole thing and going over it multiple times with Goldberg. But it does show that he can be 'good in ring' when he wants to be. I put quotations around good in ring, because I think Goldberg coming in, yelling, spear, jackhammer end is pretty cool and entertaining.
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Oct 25, 2020 02:40
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Cerebral Bore posted:Having a limited and unflashy moveset doesn't necessarily make you a bad worker though. Ishii is arguably the best worker in the world today and the flashiest move he uses is a freaking enzuigiri. I have seen him break out a goddamn Steiner Screwdriver, though it’s also possible Tanahashi just was a maniac for asking for it.
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Oct 25, 2020 02:59
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Kind of puts another question in my head: who was the first big "workrate" wrestler? I imagine there was probably someone ages past who wowed people relative to the era (hell, I seem to recall seeing grainy footage of some pretty impressive stuff, time period or no), but was there a specific moment where that became a big point of judgement?
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Oct 25, 2020 03:02
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FakePoet posted:Kind of puts another question in my head: who was the first big "workrate" wrestler? I imagine there was probably someone ages past who wowed people relative to the era (hell, I seem to recall seeing grainy footage of some pretty impressive stuff, time period or no), but was there a specific moment where that became a big point of judgement? I'd have to think Ric Flair would be one of the first as we know it, someone the magazines and inside fans all thought was the best in the world, before his day though I have no idea, I feel like the concept of it being a work wasn't widely accepted enough for it to be critiqued in that way before Flair's first era.
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Oct 25, 2020 03:19
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FakePoet posted:Kind of puts another question in my head: who was the first big "workrate" wrestler? I imagine there was probably someone ages past who wowed people relative to the era (hell, I seem to recall seeing grainy footage of some pretty impressive stuff, time period or no), but was there a specific moment where that became a big point of judgement? Maybe Carpentier? He came over and really wowed people and the descriptions of him make it seem like he really did more impressive stuff than the top guys of that era, but was still respected.
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Oct 25, 2020 03:23
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MassRafTer posted:Maybe Carpentier? He came over and really wowed people and the descriptions of him make it seem like he really did more impressive stuff than the top guys of that era, but was still respected.
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Oct 25, 2020 04:25
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Maxwell Lord posted:Goldberg was still pretty green in his initial push, and his matches almost all being squashes didn't help him learn, but I think he rose above that eventually. And it's worth noting how he could make those squashes entertaining, like he wasn't selling much but his offense looked great whoever he was against. BrigadierSensible posted:Goldberg vs DDP is a legitimate banger. Although this is probably more down to DDP choreographing the whole thing and going over it multiple times with Goldberg. Look, I liked Goldberg, and I liked Goldberg vs DDP. But let's be real. DDP carried Goldberg through a solid ten minute match, and that's the standout example everyone goes to for why Goldberg was actually good in ring? Did he have any other above average matches? I'll concede that I may have overrated Warrior, but Hogan was a much better worker than Goldberg. He was limited, but could go longer than five minutes and could do more than one type of match.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:05
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FakePoet posted:Kind of puts another question in my head: who was the first big "workrate" wrestler? I imagine there was probably someone ages past who wowed people relative to the era (hell, I seem to recall seeing grainy footage of some pretty impressive stuff, time period or no), but was there a specific moment where that became a big point of judgement? Way before my time, but did Rocca blow people's minds?
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Oct 25, 2020 05:08
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rujasu posted:Look, I liked Goldberg, and I liked Goldberg vs DDP. But let's be real. DDP carried Goldberg through a solid ten minute match, and that's the standout example everyone goes to for why Goldberg was actually good in ring? Did he have any other above average matches? Goldberg vs Scott Steiner is better than Goldberg vs DDP work wise and a much different kind of match. Goldberg vs Saturn is very good, and everyone on this forum went nuts for Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar at Mania a few years ago. The ladder match with Scott Hall is also very good despite the goofy gimmick. The Raven and Hogan matches are both great smoke and mirror matches.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:14
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MassRafTer posted:Goldberg vs Scott Steiner is better than Goldberg vs DDP work wise and a much different kind of match. Goldberg vs Saturn is very good, and everyone on this forum went nuts for Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar at Mania a few years ago. The ladder match with Scott Hall is also very good despite the goofy gimmick. The Raven and Hogan matches are both great smoke and mirror matches. I feel like the Raven match went over so well because everyone expected a bullshit finish.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:23
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Red posted:I feel like the Raven match went over so well because everyone expected a bullshit finish. At the time everyone in my school was sure Goldberg was winning and I don't think any of the smart fans doubted it either since DDP losing the belt the night before after they'd announced it on Thursday made it pretty clear what they were doing.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:34
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MassRafTer posted:At the time everyone in my school was sure Goldberg was winning and I don't think any of the smart fans doubted it either since DDP losing the belt the night before after they'd announced it on Thursday made it pretty clear what they were doing. Counterpoint: It was WCW.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:50
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Red posted:Counterpoint: It was WCW. It was Raven, WCW didn't give a gently caress about Raven.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:58
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Disco Inferno
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Oct 25, 2020 08:17
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MassRafTer posted:It was Raven, WCW didn't give a gently caress about Raven. I've recently watched the Raven/Page feud on the network and outside of NWO drama, it's the most featured feud. I was really surprised how much TV time and creative freedom WCW gives Raven, considering he probably had very little political power backstage, he managed to get himself featured heavily. Then again, maybe Bischoff just wanted a strong antagonist for DDP before his feuds with Hogan and the celebrities.
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Oct 25, 2020 08:49
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davidbix posted:No, that was Mike Piellucci: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in Well that made me cry.
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Oct 25, 2020 14:39
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FakePoet posted:Who are some performers with the widest gap between great character/gimmick and not great/terrible worker? Whatever metric you feel like using for any of it. Do Vince and Shane McMahon count? Also this is as much a comment as a question but I dunno where else to put it. Why did Rock and Austin hold the WWF Title like it was apiece of garbage? During entrances wrestlers wear the belt around their waist or over their shoulder but only (of the wrestlers I've seen) Austin and Rock walked with the belt dangling from one hand like an afterthought. It just bugs me...the World Title should have more respect. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 15:42
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the other example that pops to my mind of someone dragging a belt to the ring is naito when he was trying to destroy the IC belt so you have a point lol
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Oct 25, 2020 17:25
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