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How are u posted:Win what? This is a message board for posting about current events, not an ideological battlefield. that's entirely aside from 'win? a debate? that is not the purpose of
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Oct 24, 2020 20:54
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Gabriel S. posted:We're all biased but as long as we recognize that bias and deal with it I think we should be fine if those folks are admins or IKs. I agree. The problem is, I'm not 100% convinced that the mod staff (fos' post notwithstanding) writ large is aware of its bias, which at this point tends to favor neoliberal opinions here. I fully understand why the mods forum banned YMB, even if I disagree with their decision. The problem is, there are plenty of people who are more ideologically "mainstream" and yet are easily as disruptive as he is. Those posters seem to get away with 6ers at most and then otherwise skate on by. This is what I'm talking about when I say that there needs to be consistency in how the mods enforce the rules. You can't have a blind spot for disruptive people just because their ideological viewpoints are more mainstream, and claim to be a fair authority figure. If you want a really strong example, even if it's a couple years old, have a look at why fishmech was permabanned. It wasn't because she was disruptive, posted in bad faith, and was extremely outright abusive towards other posters - but it probably should have been, and it probably should have happened a lot earlier, too. The fact that the mods at the time aligned ideologically with the arguments she was making probably shouldn't have granted her so many "get out of jail free" cards, but welp, they did. I don't bring that up to rehash old forums drama, nor do I think there's anyone remotely close to fishmech in terms of offensiveness, but to politely suggest, "let's try avoid that going forward, please." I will note that I appreciated Seven Hundred Bee taking action in the Gen Election thread this morning. That's the sort of thing I think we need more of. Cefte posted:representationist arguments directed at the mod team concedes all pretense that moderation derives from pre-established rules and cements the principle that moderation is a tool to be used to win above and beyond actual posting Right, but there seems to be a pretty large contingent of posters in this forum who believe that this is already happening: that the mod staff, not infrequently, uses its powers to help the clique with which they most closely align "win." You can agree or disagree with that perspective, but it's probably not terribly good for the health of a debate and discussion forum to have a big, active group of posters who want to contribute feeling that way. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 20:55
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Majorian posted:Right, but there seems to be a pretty large contingent of posters in this forum who believe that this is already happening: that the mod staff, more often than not, uses its powers to help the clique with which they most closely align "win." You can agree or disagree with that perspective, but it's probably not terribly good for the health of a debate and discussion forum to have a big, active group of posters who want to contribute feeling that way.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:08
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Hello I think it would also be good to re-introduce myself as a new IK, Seven Hundred Bee. First a little bit about myself - I'm a former investment banker in my mid 20s who retired to pursue my passion project: fundraising for Barack Obama's presidential library... ok, no, not really, but sometimes its good to joke! I am a boring academic sometimes doing academic things in an academic capacity with too much time on his hands. Anyway, I did want to talk a little bit of how I will approaching being an IK and my overall IK'ing philosophy because I am committed to being 100% transparent. In my eyes, I have 4 jobs: 1. Try to cut down on disruptive posts which either significantly derail a thread, are notably offtopic, or are designed to troll a thread or get a specific negative response. 2. In the lead up to the election try to keep an eye out for posters who seem to be struggling with anxiety, or who are participating in threads which are actively harming them or making them anxious. For a specific example of what I mean: you are welcome to post in the polls thread that you think Biden might lose, but if you do have a consistent pattern of making posts about how a single poll result is the end of the world, you might get a PM checking in to make sure you're doing ok or a "time out" 6'er. 3. Keep an eye out for posts which are just clearly over the line - i.e. the two posts I've issued probations for, one about how there's nothing wrong with Guiliani masturbating in front of a reporter, and one that was just a mess of weird race science. I know this category is trickier because posters have different definitions of what is "over the line", but I am doing my best to apply what I think is a generally shared vision of the boundaries of acceptability in D&D. I am happy to speak more specifically about this if anyone wants. 4. Improving D&D's culture by creating fun threads (check out the Book Review Roulette thread! Do it!). Remember, at the end of the day most of us agree about most things. What i do not think my job is is to shape the forum to follow a specific ideology, particularly my own. I think there is a distinction between posts I disagree with or think are laughably stupid and posts that violate the rules. Its my job to enforce the rules and to make this a better community for everyone, not purge posters for my particular definition of wrongthink. I also believe that the remit of an IK should be in threads that they are active participants in, so in general I will be confining my IK duties to threads I actively post in, mainly the Polls thread and USPol. To alleviate some specific concerns: I will not be IK'ing in the General Election thread, unless I get dinged about a specifically horrendous post, which is what happened earlier today. If that does happen I'll make a post explaining what I did and why. Also, as I said, I'm committed to 100% transparency. If you ever have any questions about a decision I've made, please contact me, I am happy to explain myself. If you have feedback for me, let me know! I am a part-time volunteer assistant janitor for a niche political subforum on a dying comedy website - I attach no ego to the things I do here. And, as cliched as this might sound, I do see my job as trying to make the forum better for everyone who posts here, not just people who happen to agree with me about specific topics. If you ever need to ping me, too, you can find me in the D&D Mod Discord (linked in the pinned threads) or shoot me a PM with a link to the post in question. I would also appreciate if you report the post as well, just to have that on record. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 21:12
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Cefte posted:you're running into the 'something needs to be done, this is something, this needs to be done' crevasse - is the correct response to a perception of clique-driven moderation to explicitly recruit moderators from a wider selection of cliques, or to limit moderation in a way that undermines accusations of clique-driven decisionmaking? who can tell! I don't think that's what I'm doing. What I'm doing is pointing out that something is already being done, whether it's apparent or not. The only question that remains is whether we shape what is already in motion in a manner that is somewhat balanced, or not. If we were to burn it all down and start it over again, I'd be much more in favor of what you're proposing, ie: less active moderation in general. But I don't think that's in the cards. Seven Hundred Bee posted:What i do not think my job is is to shape the forum to follow a specific ideology, particularly my own. I think there is a distinction between posts I disagree with or think are laughably stupid and posts that violate the rules. Its my job to enforce the rules and to make this a better community for everyone, not purge posters for my particular definition of wrongthink. I'm pleased to hear this! May you live up to your words here. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 21:26
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Majorian posted:I agree. The problem is, I'm not 100% convinced that the mod staff (fos' post notwithstanding) writ large is aware of its bias, which at this point tends to favor neoliberal opinions here. I fully understand why the mods forum banned YMB, even if I disagree with their decision. The problem is, there are plenty of people who are more ideologically "mainstream" and yet are easily as disruptive as he is. Those posters seem to get away with 6ers at most and then otherwise skate on by. This is what I'm talking about when I say that there needs to be consistency in how the mods enforce the rules. You can't have a blind spot for disruptive people just because their ideological viewpoints are more mainstream, and claim to be a fair authority figure. How are you coming to the conclusion that the moderation community favors neoliberalism because if you take a quick glance at any of the discussions from admins there are all overwhelming in support or at least agreement with many leftist ideals - socialized medicine, abolishing the police, elimination of country borders, etc. Hell, I bet if you even asked the admins they'd all admit they agree with these sorts of things and the entire forum essentially leans left.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:33
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Gabriel S. posted:How are you coming to the conclusion that the moderation community favors neoliberalism because if you take a quick glance at any of the discussions from admins there are all overwhelming in support or at least agreement with many leftist ideals - socialized medicine, abolishing the police, elimination of country borders, etc. Hell, I bet if you even asked the admins they'd all admit they agree with these sorts of things and the entire forum essentially leans left. Mostly because they adamantly refuse to punish people for posting unreadable bloodthirsty sometimes racist screeds over multiple pages, and also refuse to ban people who call rape/abuse victims lying whores. Actions speak louder than words.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:36
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Mostly because they adamantly refuse to punish people for posting unreadable bloodthirsty sometimes racist screeds over multiple pages, and also refuse to ban people who call rape/abuse victims lying whores. Actions speak louder than words. That is not true because multiple folks were banned and probated over the whole Tara Reade discussion.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:44
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Freakazoid_ posted:Just an observation, I'm not fully versed in who's who when it comes to cliques, but if you know someone is part of a clique and the community picks someone from that clique to be in a position of power... wouldn't that set off an alarm bell in your head?
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Oct 24, 2020 21:48
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People calling Tara Reade a liar recently have been getting a week probe at most, which is loving ridiculous. Additionally, someone who called one of Lowtax's victims a liar also only gets a week. It really doesn't seem like the mods give a poo poo about this behavior, they just seem to know it looks really bad to let it go entirely unpunished so they just give a warning not to say the quiet part out loud and the disgusting people who post that poo poo get to stay around and just imply it rather than stating it outright. One of them didn't even get punished at all last time they did it.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:49
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:People calling Tara Reade a liar recently have been getting a week probe at most, which is loving ridiculous. Additionally, someone who called one of Lowtax's victims a liar also only gets a week. It really doesn't seem like the mods give a poo poo about this behavior, they just seem to know it looks really bad to let it go entirely unpunished so they just give a warning not to say the quiet part out loud and the disgusting people who post that poo poo get to stay around and just imply it rather than stating it outright. A week probation is a pretty strong slap, and if people receive one and then shut-up about the topic then it seems like that system is working. If somebody didn't receive punishment as you claim then you should PM a mod about it.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:54
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:People calling Tara Reade a liar recently have been getting a week probe at most, which is loving ridiculous. Additionally, someone who called one of Lowtax's victims a liar also only gets a week. It really doesn't seem like the mods give a poo poo about this behavior, they just seem to know it looks really bad to let it go entirely unpunished so they just give a warning not to say the quiet part out loud and the disgusting people who post that poo poo get to stay around and just imply it rather than stating it outright. I haven't been involved in any recent Reade discussions but a few months ago some members were banned others probated for a month. That's more than just a week. That's a significant punishment which shows this behavior is not acceptable.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:56
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Gabriel S. posted:I haven't been involved in any recent Reade discussions but a few months ago some members were banned others probated for a month. That's more than just a week. That's a significant punishment which shows this behavior is not acceptable. Evidently it doesn't show that strongly enough, because it does keep popping up. Quite frankly, I don't see why that doesn't deserve a forum ban.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:00
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Well, then ban and or probate them as needed but to claim the administrators "adamantly refuse to punish people" is simply not true. To say they're only getting a week is also not true.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:03
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:People calling Tara Reade a liar recently have been getting a week probe at most, which is loving ridiculous. Additionally, someone who called one of Lowtax's victims a liar also only gets a week. It really doesn't seem like the mods give a poo poo about this behavior, they just seem to know it looks really bad to let it go entirely unpunished so they just give a warning not to say the quiet part out loud and the disgusting people who post that poo poo get to stay around and just imply it rather than stating it outright. If there are specific posts you think didn't get punished hard enough, PM a mod to talk about it. If you don't trust the mods to give good punishments, PM an admin to talk about it. Please do not endlessly complain all over D&D about ancient posts not getting the punishment you think they deserve. This whole thing of publicly shouting for someone's head on a spike needs to loving stop.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:09
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Main Paineframe posted:If there are specific posts you think didn't get punished hard enough, PM a mod to talk about it. If you don't trust the mods to give good punishments, PM an admin to talk about it. No one can see if anyone has PMed a mod. Your system is completely opaque unless a punishment is handed out. If no punishment results from something that many people perceive as a bad post, why are you surprised when one of them brings it up publicly? What's more, wouldn't you want a public feedback section to improve how your punishments cleave to current forum consensus? You perceive perceive individuals providing feedback on mod actions as antagonistic to you, which does not seem like a good way to interact with the forum you are attempting to guide.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:16
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I tried that, it was met with a big "gently caress off, you don't get to have input on mod decisions". There aren't any admins to PM about dnd issues because the only one who isn't entirely apolitical also thinks Tara reade is a liar and would also tell me to gently caress off.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:17
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:I tried that, it was met with a big "gently caress off, you don't get to have input on mod decisions". There aren't any admins to PM about dnd issues because the only one who isn't entirely apolitical also thinks Tara reade is a liar and would also tell me to gently caress off.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:42
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Unoriginal Name posted:No one can see if anyone has PMed a mod. Your system is completely opaque unless a punishment is handed out. What I don't want is a mini-Helldump where people constantly make public calls for other posters to be punished. A big part of reducing the toxicity, conflict, and cliqueishness is taking that poo poo out of the public eye where people have to make their own cases for stuff privately, rather than holding show trials in the metaphorical town square for their audiences of buddies to cheer them on. Classon Ave. Robot posted:I tried that, it was met with a big "gently caress off, you don't get to have input on mod decisions". There aren't any admins to PM about dnd issues because the only one who isn't entirely apolitical also thinks Tara reade is a liar and would also tell me to gently caress off. That sounds like something you should complain to an admin about. If you can't convince an apolitical admin that a mod has done something bad, then that's your problem. If you don't want to, then whatever, but I'm still not going to let you publicly obsess over old already-punished posts. If you want something handled, PM a mod or admin - they may agree with your argument, or they may not, but that's how you get things done around here. Pissing into the wind about some old grudge isn't productive.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:42
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Yeah we already had a whole thread in QCS about the efficacy of PMing the mods about poo poo and while it varies by forum, for D&D in particular it is really not worth your time and will probably just create more trouble for you. If y'all really want people to send PMs and reports then you should make it a worthwhile thing to do. What actually happens when you PM a mod about a problem, I suspect, is that the bar for doing something about it actually goes higher, to avoid giving the appearance the PMs being a forum for airing grievances and getting your posting enemies punished or whatever, and so you're actually just better off doing nothing and hoping a mod sees it anyway, than you are alerting them to whatever the problem is. And I will just say for anyone else: don't PM Main Paineframe in particular. You really don't want to be on his radar at all.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:54
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I hope the people who pm me feel like I give their inquiries a fair shake. I've been getting a lot of PMs lately and I think I average about a 90% response rate to the non 'gently caress you you piece of poo poo biden lover' pms these days? Now that we have more IKs and the work is more spread out, I've got more time and energy to answer pms, so feel free to pm me concerns.
Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 23:05
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Main Paineframe posted:Pissing into the wind about some old grudge isn't productive. Do you not see how impossible it is for anyone to take you seriously when you tell them to send a PM about bad mod decisions when you pre-emptively decide that any issues someone might have are just the result of "posting grudges"? You're openly operating in bad faith when you do this poo poo. I don't hate these people because of a posting grudge, I hate then because they are the main reason that people don't take women seriously when they're victimised by people like Biden or lowtax. When people tell you that these people shouldn't be tolerated on this site it's not a "posting grudge", it's basic loving human decency. Classon Ave. Robot fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 23:21
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Main Paineframe posted:That sounds like something you should complain to an admin about. If you can't convince an apolitical admin that a mod has done something bad, then that's your problem. I might suggest that given the history of the site it is quite likely to be the admin's problem, it will just take a while before anything is done about it.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:24
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People should consider the possibility that if you PM the mods and they are not giving you the response that you want, it’s because they disagree with you on how the forums should be run. PMing them doesn’t mean they have to give you satisfaction or whatever the hell. So PM an admin. If you don’t like what they say, either, maybe it’s just not the forum for you? It can’t be everything to everybody. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 23:26
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I'm gonna throw something out here because I don't really have a suggestion for how to fix this, but I feel like one of the problems with SA's modding on a technical level is that "transparency" only happens in certain situations. If you report someone, and they get probated for the thing you reported, then you know that the mods agreed with your report and acted upon it. But if you report someone and they don't get punished, there's no real feedback as to why. It could be that the mods don't think the post was actually bad, or that they do think it was bad but not to the level of a probe, or it could just be that no mods happen to be online and nobody's seen it yet. But from the point of view of the reporter, there is zero information. The reporter has to come up with their own reason why the post they reported wasn't punished, and without any other information, that could easily become a narrative in the reporter's head that doesn't actually align with what happened. Obviously I don't think the mods should have to give reasons for every report they dismiss, because that would be loving hell on them and I'm sure there are plenty of reports that should just be ignored. Like I said, I don't know exactly how this could be made better. But I think it's something to consider amid the accusations of mod bias and lack of transparency.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:41
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Do you not see how impossible it is for anyone to take you seriously when you tell them to send a PM about bad mod decisions when you pre-emptively decide that any issues someone might have are just the result of "posting grudges"? You're openly operating in bad faith when you do this poo poo. Well, let me put it this way. Don't post again in D&D about how much you hate other posters or how mad you are that months-old posts were probations rather than bans. You can PM it to me or anyone else as much as you want, there's like a dozen different people you can direct your private complaints to at this point, and that's the final word on that matter.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:55
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Being lovely toward probable sexual or domestic violence victims should be 30 days at bare minimum, full stop.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:10
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They should have been banned in general and then banned from subforum if they re-registered.
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Oct 25, 2020 06:03
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First they came for the rape apologists, and I said nothing. Then, they came for concentration camp defenders, and I said nothing. Then, they came for the transphobes, and I said nothing. Then, they came for the race realists, and I said nothing. I will continue to say nothing when that happens because gently caress all those people and gently caress you if you think a week off is an acceptable punishment for any of that poo poo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2020 08:30
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, let me put it this way. Don't post again in D&D about how much you hate other posters or how mad you are that months-old posts were probations rather than bans. You can PM it to me or anyone else as much as you want, there's like a dozen different people you can direct your private complaints to at this point, and that's the final word on that matter. This comes across very badly, to say the least. A poster raises concerns about moderation practices, in a public feedback thread, viewed by everyone, and moderated by outside mods. AFAICT, you ignore their concerns, immediately attack them (??), and tell said never to raise concerns of this nature in D&D again. Essentially a limited-scope permaban from D&D with no end date, since “how much you hate other posters” can be interpreted to include almost any ad hom or personal attack. Again: this is your reaction when other people are watching, in a feedback thread, specifically on the topic of feedback about forum punishment practices. Based on that: why the gently caress should anyone PM their concerns to you?? In a private setting, your reaction is probably a hell of a lot worse.
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Oct 25, 2020 12:22
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Can someone PM me some links to all this rape apology stuff? People keep talking like it's this huge widespread problem but I've not seen it I guess because I stopped reading GE?
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Oct 25, 2020 12:33
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Fly Molo posted:This comes across very badly, to say the least. A poster raises concerns about moderation practices, in a public feedback thread, viewed by everyone, and moderated by outside mods. AFAICT, you ignore their concerns, immediately attack them (??), and tell said never to raise concerns of this nature in D&D again. Essentially a limited-scope permaban from D&D with no end date, since “how much you hate other posters” can be interpreted to include almost any ad hom or personal attack. Again: this is your reaction when other people are watching, in a feedback thread, specifically on the topic of feedback about forum punishment practices. I think the issue is specific posters constantly bringing up old probes or grudge posts against others that MP is trying to address. Because when all someone does is go into a thread and bitch about how the these posts that a user made from months ago never got punished its dumb as gently caress
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Oct 25, 2020 13:41
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Fly Molo posted:This comes across very badly, to say the least. A poster raises concerns about moderation practices, in a public feedback thread, viewed by everyone, and moderated by outside mods. AFAICT, you ignore their concerns, immediately attack them (??), and tell said never to raise concerns of this nature in D&D again. Essentially a limited-scope permaban from D&D with no end date, since “how much you hate other posters” can be interpreted to include almost any ad hom or personal attack. Again: this is your reaction when other people are watching, in a feedback thread, specifically on the topic of feedback about forum punishment practices. If you have concerns about general moderation practices, post them here. If you have concerns about specific single moderator actions, or about specific posts or posters that you think should have been handled differently, then you need to send them privately so that we can discuss the full details without it being a public callout of some random poster (something which is heavily discouraged in almost every forum on SA).
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Oct 25, 2020 15:07
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World Famous W posted:They should have been banned in general and then banned from subforum if they re-registered. This is sort of on topic, though I'm not really interested in putting the poster in question on trial yet again months later. I really don't think we should be forum banning people for a first time offense unless it was permaban worthy anyway. "Should have been longer" is a position I'd be willing to consider, but "should have been an immediate subforum ban" is contrary to how moderation on SA works; people are specifically allowed to return from their probation or ban and, provided they change their behavior, continue posting as normal.
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Oct 25, 2020 16:16
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fool of sound posted:This is sort of on topic, though I'm not really interested in putting the poster in question on trial yet again months later. I really don't think we should be forum banning people for a first time offense unless it was permaban worthy anyway. "Should have been longer" is a position I'd be willing to consider, but "should have been an immediate subforum ban" is contrary to how moderation on SA works; people are specifically allowed to return from their probation or ban and, provided they change their behavior, continue posting as normal. 30 days should be the minimum response for that behavior.
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Oct 25, 2020 16:54
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socialsecurity posted:Can someone PM me some links to all this rape apology stuff? People keep talking like it's this huge widespread problem but I've not seen it I guess because I stopped reading GE? I think the QCS Thread are gone or archived but I'm sure if you scroll through the Leper's Colony a few months back you'll see multiple bans and multiple probations that were more much more than one week. People were absolutely punished for this behavior.
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Oct 25, 2020 20:16
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Cefte posted:representationist arguments directed at the mod team concedes all pretense that moderation derives from pre-established rules and cements the principle that moderation is a tool to be used to win above and beyond actual posting So, this is from a page back but I think that this needs addressing: Bias exists in everyone, perhaps it is a side effect of cognition in. In a way, bias is the excrement of the mind.. When I say that I believe there is moderator bias, it is similar to believing that moderators poo poo. No man woman or child has walked this Earth free from bias, just as no man woman or child has walked this Earth without pooping. Pretending that mods are some sort of beep borp logic computers who exist purely to enforce the rules as impartial machine logic is delusional. All rules require discretion, interpretation, and judgment. The best way to stop clique wars isn't to pretend that mods do not have opinions but to make sure that there is equal representation of those opinions. As for ramps themselves: I think threadbans are a very useful tool that should be more widely employed. Some people just lose their poo poo when talking about certain topics, and barring them from specific discussions may be a more nimble solution; a scalpel rather than an axe. That said, I understand that it mechanically more difficult to enforce but I believe that if a poster has earned himself a threadban then the community will probably go out of its way to alert the mod team of their participation. All that said, I think that the whole antisemitism mess that exploded in the GE thread recently was handled rather well.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:12
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Cpt_Obvious posted:So, this is from a page back but I think that this needs addressing: What the actual gently caress is this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2020 03:57
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Cpt_Obvious posted:So, this is from a page back but I think that this needs addressing: This just seems like common sense. Agreed. If the moderation team of D&D was all hardcore libertarians, that would certainly affect the policies and priorities of that mod team. If they were all hardcore anarchoprimitivists, that would likewise affect their rulings- how could it not? Nobody’s a drat robot, and the struggle to moderate objectively is simultaneously laudable, unattainable, and something that requires continuous work and introspection. Some other voices on the D&D mod team would probably be a positive change, and help break the rut the forum has been stuck in for a while. Agreed when it comes to threadbans- when I’ve seen it used, it generally works well, and it provides a useful intermediate between “repeated probations, no long term consequences” and “permanent ban from posting in D&D.” It does seem like something that could and should be automated to some extent on the SA backend- relying purely on people to report threadbanned posters is going to be an exhausting and leaky system to maintain in any megathread.
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Oct 27, 2020 04:11
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I rarely see people make a post to refute a claim without attaching an insult. I am curious about the mod's approach to the amount of personal attacks which takes place. "I disagree with your points, here's why" is different from "I disagree with your points, and anyone who believes these points is an idiot" type of posts which I see on a daily basis. I really enjoy the forums because it allows me to talk to people of varying political beliefs. I just don't like the fact that some agitators get personally offended if you disagree with their take on a particular issue.
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Oct 27, 2020 19:54
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