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Tubgoat posted:I used to be an advocate of free speech, but for some reason, speech promoting violence against and hatred of the vulnerable is just fine while speech contrary to this is considered inappropriate? Same way on a less harmful level guys who work at shoe stores are way more likely to be foot fetishists, even if there is no mandate from management that they sexually enjoy feet.
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Oct 23, 2020 07:14
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Pornographic Memory posted:It's a really abrasive way to make a pro free speech point and people in today's discourse are understandably skeptical of free speech arguments, but I think he's at least worth considering in good faith Look, I can go for “here are arguments that Holocaust deniers use and why they are dumb as poo poo”, but arguing that we should employ denialist professors is beyond the pale. gently caress that and the horse it rode in on.
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Oct 23, 2020 07:21
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Knowing what we do about Leopold, I would be legitimately shocked if he didn't order housewares made of his victims.
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Oct 23, 2020 07:21
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You guys do know that finkelstein's entire family with the exception of his own two parents were all murdered in the Holocaust, right? I only ask because it seems like people itt are unaware of that
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Oct 23, 2020 07:28
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Tubgoat posted:I used to be an advocate of free speech, but for some reason, speech promoting violence against and hatred of the vulnerable is just fine while speech contrary to this is considered inappropriate? The "win them in the marketplace of ideas" free speech argument presupposes intellectual honesty on both sides as a foundation. This level of honesty has rarely been present in public discourse, and certainly isn't present now. The effort spent to debunk obvious lies is far greater than the energy required to create those lies, and we know from scientific research that debunking a conspiracy theory isn't an effective way to fight it. The debunking, paradoxically, pushes people further into it. It also presupposes that neither side gains or loses anything for participating in said debate beyond the stated possibility of a public opinion shift, yet political actors have used endless discussion and debate to delay or stifle action for as long as there have been politicians. Anyone who wants to give those shitheads a platform is complicit in spreading their lies, regardless of intention.
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Oct 23, 2020 07:35
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https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/999336951185530880
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Oct 23, 2020 07:38
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Fluoride Jones posted:You guys do know that finkelstein's entire family with the exception of his own two parents were all murdered in the Holocaust, right? I only ask because it seems like people itt are unaware of that You are correct that I did not know this but it only adds to my confusion.
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Oct 23, 2020 07:48
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finkelstein is old as hell and he's on more layers of irony than the people taking it at face value, including the intellectual dark web dipshits he is dunking on
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Oct 23, 2020 07:54
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I mean, it's his historical/familial trauma to wield however he sees fit, I just find it bizarre at best.
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Oct 23, 2020 08:00
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Tubgoat posted:I used to be an advocate of free speech, but for some reason, speech promoting violence against and hatred of the vulnerable is just fine while speech contrary to this is considered inappropriate? Messing with humans remains wasn't a wide spread practice, it wasn't a mandate from above but something someone on the ground does for fun. There was a single instance of accidental cannibalism when jews were sipping on a giant pot of what they thought was boiled pork, doesn't mean that forced cannibalism was a wide spread practice. Leave arguing the particles of the event to historians who all agree on the consensus that there was a state project to systematically eradicate populations.
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Oct 23, 2020 08:11
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miniscule12 posted:Messing with humans remains wasn't a wide spread practice, it wasn't a mandate from above but something someone on the ground does for fun. There was a single instance of accidental cannibalism when jews were sipping on a giant pot of what they thought was boiled pork, doesn't mean that forced cannibalism was a wide spread practice. Yeah, he never ever questioned the systematic extermination of populations bit. Not once. But permabanned for antisemitism. ACTUAL nazis posting nazi bullshit though? Those are fine, free speech. 
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Oct 23, 2020 08:18
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I mean, the US’s Supreme Court rulings have been pretty clear on free speech. Telling people conscription is a violation of their 13th amendment rights is dangerous and illegal, saying “we should kill the Jews” but not saying “on Tuesday” is just using your first amendment rights.
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Oct 23, 2020 14:12
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Also I'm pretty sure he's joking?
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Oct 23, 2020 14:21
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I only read a bit of it last night but it was operating on several layers of irony and it seemed like holocaust denial was being used as an example for a read-between-the-lines critique of dogma and professorial authority in University culture.
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Oct 23, 2020 15:06
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turns out the eagle’s nest enthusiast may be a tad racist https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1319604510390669314?s=21
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Oct 23, 2020 16:10
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StashAugustine posted:Also I'm pretty sure he's joking? Since folks seem it not be understanding what he's doing, I'm going to spell it out. He is taking the argument that allowing Holocaust denial from guests on campus is acceptable to its logical conclusion, and thus demonstrating the absurdity of it. That is, the position he is disingenuously/sarcastically arguing for is obviously completely unacceptable and anyone who reads it (except for Nazis) understands this at a core level. Literally no one, including "Market Place of Ideas" debate fetishizers, wants a professor on campus promoting Holocaust denial. Which then raises the obvious question of why the university would bring someone in as a guest to espouse an opinion so reprehensible that they would not allow it among the faculty. It's super layered in legalistic argumentation, but it's a valid point. Not sure it's one that many people could pull off, but ... well, given his personal history, he's as well equipped as anyone.
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Oct 23, 2020 16:56
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Azathoth posted:Literally no one, including "Market Place of Ideas" debate fetishizers, wants a professor on campus promoting Holocaust denial. ah, see, this is where the wheels come off EDIT: to be clear, what I'm saying is, "this is true in reasonable collections of people, i.e. ones you can eject nazis from; but it's not true on the internet, which is where he's posted this take" LordSaturn has issued a correction as of 17:06 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 17:02
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StashAugustine posted:Also I'm pretty sure he's joking? i figured if there was an actual holocaust denier teaching a class he might sign up just to dunk on the guy in front of the other students endlessly
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Oct 23, 2020 17:06
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Spergin Morlock posted:i figured if there was an actual holocaust denier teaching a class he might sign up just to dunk on the guy in front of the other students endlessly I would watch some hack sign up to get dunked on by Finkelstein every drat day.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:25
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Zeroisanumber posted:I would watch some hack sign up to get dunked on by Finkelstein every drat day. content that hot would need to be on onlyfans
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Oct 23, 2020 17:35
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The guy who punched the Freeze Peach rally organizer still has his Facebook up apparently even though I thought he got arrested, has he been able to make bail?
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Oct 23, 2020 18:56
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Slugnoid posted:i went and had a quick look at /pol/ the other day cos i thought id get some cheap schadenfreude laughs after MAS won in bolivia but it was just so incredibly sad. half the threads were people begging others to give them reasons to not kill themselves the rest were split between boomers posting conspiracy nonsense and posters accusing each other of being undercover feds or mossad agents.
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Oct 23, 2020 22:20
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https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1319763652161974272
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Oct 23, 2020 23:18
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https://twitter.com/aliciagarza/status/1319730483471679489?s=20
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Oct 24, 2020 02:50
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For some reason, I doubt this was his Christmas card list.
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Oct 24, 2020 03:25
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I wonder how much of this is long-term infiltration and just letting all the rando mass shootings happen because a single synagogue or garlic festival isn’t important to the feds and how much of this is the fbi entrapping suggestible targets with learning disabilities to make themselves look useful like they do to islamic high-school kids.
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Oct 24, 2020 03:35
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 lmao
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Oct 26, 2020 01:16
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ekuNNN posted:
That is some big "quote from man stabbed" energy.
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Oct 26, 2020 05:21
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help, i'm going down a rabbit hole https://twitter.com/robinhanson/status/1320232601748197378 https://twitter.com/robinhanson/status/1320549670482042880?s=20  quote:Scott Aaronson asks a great question: 
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Oct 26, 2020 07:07
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my brain is definitely in recovery mode after those big ideas 
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Oct 26, 2020 08:26
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Azathoth posted:Since folks seem it not be understanding what he's doing, I'm going to spell it out. This really just isn't true, if you've followed Finkelstein's career at all in recent years it's obvious that the surface level reading is the correct one and he's largely being sincere. He has been hammering the principles of free speech absolutism and the virtues of Mill's On Liberty for a long time. Here's him giving a very similar argument in great detail at a CPGB hosted event in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt3WmzLM5G0
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Oct 26, 2020 09:42
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really if there's any significant portion of the audience taking it one way vs the other then imo that's a huge communication failure on finkelstein's part. I'm honestly not sure WHAT he really meant and that bothers me kind of a lot.
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Oct 26, 2020 10:05
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In the article / excerpt linked in the tweet he lays his argument out pretty clearly. He believes that the free, unfettered expression of abhorrent ideas allows you to more effectively dismantle them and sharpen the arguments of your opposition. Again very much in the tradition of Mill. I'm not sympathetic to his argument but I think he's being pretty forthright about it.
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Oct 26, 2020 10:10
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Sekhem posted:In the article / excerpt linked in the tweet he lays his argument out pretty clearly. He believes that the free, unfettered expression of abhorrent ideas allows you to more effectively dismantle them and sharpen the arguments of your opposition. Again very much in the tradition of Mill. I'm not sympathetic to his argument but I think he's being pretty forthright about it. Yeah, Finkelstein is not subtle. It's fun to listen to him debate but he is 100% sincere when he writes.
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Oct 26, 2020 10:11
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Setting aside the intellectual irresponsibility of hiring Holocaust deniers, they’re walking Title IX violations. To reference the lib bible, they are not boggarts that the dean can lock in a chest and let out occasionally so that the pupils can practice their defence against the dark arts on a real monster. Platystemon has issued a correction as of 10:34 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 10:29
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He seems super committed to the idea that, if people are given a thorough sales pitch from sincere holocaust denialists, they will inevitably reject it? e: basically a more cerebral version of "sunlight is the best disinfectant"?
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Oct 26, 2020 10:33
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Its a stupid and bad position and he should feel stupid and bad for holding it
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Oct 26, 2020 10:34
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Platystemon posted:Setting aside the intellectual irresponsibility of hiring Holocaust deniers, they’re walking Title IX violations. What university would even want to hire them, and have to deal with the endless stream of bad publicity from of "dipshit professor shows off '1488' tattoo where the 4 is a swastika; claims it's some bogus mystical thing that nobody's ever heard of" every other week?
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Oct 26, 2020 10:35
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Call me crazy but imho the people who seek to destroy me should be destroyed, not empowered, but I'm not an affluent academic with tenure so what do I know If you want to hone your rhetoric against nazis then go to their spaces, dont invite them to your own lmao dumbass
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Oct 26, 2020 10:38
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Flesh Forge posted:He seems super committed to the idea that, if people are given a thorough sales pitch from sincere holocaust denialists, they will inevitably reject it? The more online holocaust denial got, the less convincing it's gotten to the point where "Well, yeah they got thrown in camps but it's really typhus that killed them, couldn't help it." A lot of holocaust denial really doesn't make much sense. Still, I hardly think you need avid holocaust deniers on payroll if you want to repeat their arguments. They have plenty of books and articles. Finkelstein is a weird lib who liked to argue with some of the worst people(like Alan Dershowitz).
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Oct 26, 2020 10:39
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