|
Boris Galerkin posted:I would have thought the constant motion of the plane would interfere with the telescope but I guess it's not a problem? Makes sense then I guess. Computer corrections and stabilization platforms can do a lot of good work.
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 03:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:47 |
|
|
Also it's a hell of a lot easier to adjust for something that's as close as the Moon compared to, say, any star.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 03:36
|
|
cowboy
|
Also note that the plane stuff specifically got the clearest and most advanced spectral reading of reflected light, not a new especially close and zoomed in photo. It specifically was a task that didn’t need extra stability compared to the ground, just thinner atmosphere.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 04:13
|
|
|
Has research been done somehow on how boxed in we are in terms of evolutionary options that work? Like on earth if you're evolving life you're probably ending up doing photosynthesis at some point, and then you're gonna try to grow towards the sun at some point, and whoops now you have trees. I guess the chlorophyll-like could have different colors, but you're gonna have a trunk and a canopy (or be a grass, or shrub etc.). This question was inspired by learning that crabs apparently evolved five separate times: https://boingboing.net/2020/10/15/animals-have-evolved-into-a-crab-like-shape-at-least-5-separate-times.html So if we look at a planet with earth-like characteristics, are we gonna find basically trees and deer and wolves and crabs, just with Klingon forehead ridges and maybe they're using a different chirality in some of their molecules?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 05:07
|
|
|
aphid_licker posted:Has research been done somehow on how boxed in we are in terms of evolutionary options that work? Like on earth if you're evolving life you're probably ending up doing photosynthesis at some point, and then you're gonna try to grow towards the sun at some point, and whoops now you have trees. I guess the chlorophyll-like could have different colors, but you're gonna have a trunk and a canopy (or be a grass, or shrub etc.). This question was inspired by learning that crabs apparently evolved five separate times: https://boingboing.net/2020/10/15/animals-have-evolved-into-a-crab-like-shape-at-least-5-separate-times.html I suspect you would get the same kind of broad divisions we have - primary producers, things that eat those, and things that eat those that eat the primary producers, etc. I imagine there would also be parasites of various kinds. The details are hard to imagine, although I would imagine an organism in a similar niche would probably have mechanical or functional similarities to its earth equivalents.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 05:13
|
|
|
It's really hard to tell obviously since we only have a sample size of one planet, but I'd be surprised if there was much similarity to Earth animals. There are some notable cases of convergent evolution resulting in animals which can be superficially similar such as dolphins and sharks, but even then they are built on very similar templates. Much of the placement and type of bones we have was established early on, and also all vertebrates are distortions of that same skeletal form.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 05:28
|
|
|
It seems likely that any other planet would have primary producers and consumers and stuff, but deer have only existed for a pretty short amount of time on the grand scheme of the planet Earth. I like to think that any life-bearing planets would probably have plants or at least something that does photosynthesis, they might be a different colour based on the radiation that reaches the surface from the star but I expect they'd still be green. Other planets I guess could evolve something similar to mammals and reptiles and birds and poo poo, or they could still have something like dinosaurs on them, or they could have whatever's going to replace the mammals after we've driven them to extinction in a few hundred years. All sorts of things could be possible, really. Classon Ave. Robot fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Oct 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 05:35
|
|
|
If there are animals, I would expect bilateral symmetry and legs/arms. A lot would depend on the star and the planet. There are probably way more environments that can only support bacteria than there are planets with multicellular life, given that Earth was a bacteria planet for 3 of its 4 billion years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 06:26
|
|
|
Not exactly the discussion, but if you haven't read Blindsight by Peter Watts and are interested in a story based around a similar theme, do so immediately. I don't want to spoil it, but let's say it asks the question "is sentience actually necessary to accomplish the types of things humans accomplish or could it be an evolutionary dead end?" It's my hands down favorite sci fi book. Despite most of its concepts being way far out there, he has footnotes all through the story that link to the scientific papers where he first saw the concept in question and then extrapolated and developed into crazy sci-fi what if scenarios so it's at least partially grounded in current cutting edge science that you can read up on. Also, how can you not love the blurb: quote:Two months since sixty-five thousand alien objects clenched around the Earth like a luminous fist, screaming to the heavens as the atmosphere burned them to ash. Two months since that moment of brief, bright surveillance by agents unknown.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 06:41
|
|
|
Thanks guys! This stuff is very cool to think about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
I also recommend Blindsight, and a short film about it was just released.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 22:30
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:If there are animals, I would expect bilateral symmetry and legs/arms. Why bilateral symmetry necessarily? There's a lot of creatures on this planet that evolved with radial symmetry -- how do we know that the prevalence of bilateral symmetry on terrestrial creatures isn't a quirk or fluke of chance? Also! Our definition of "animal" or "Plant" might not necessarily even apply to an alien ecology. Maybe it would be more helpful to think of things as "motile" vs "sessile".
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Bilateral symmetry lets you have a head to store and protect your brain and a tail to help you move around better, I don't know if anything's gonna be evolving it's way onto land without it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 02:29
|
|
|
Classon Ave. Robot posted:Bilateral symmetry lets you have a head to store and protect your brain and a tail to help you move around better, I don't know if anything's gonna be evolving it's way onto land without it. radial symmetry allows for those things, too, though I suppose multiple tails would just be called tentacles. and since we’re just discussing life in general I fail to see why land-based life is a requirement. gimme my megawise telekinetic space whales already.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
mediaphage posted:radial symmetry allows for those things, too, though I suppose multiple tails would just be called tentacles. and since we’re just discussing life in general I fail to see why land-based life is a requirement. gimme my megawise telekinetic space whales already. It’s probably not a requirement for intelligent life certainly, but it’s almost definitely a requirement for a technological civilization. You can’t get out of the Stone Age underwater.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 03:13
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:It’s probably not a requirement for intelligent life certainly, but it’s almost definitely a requirement for a technological civilization. You can’t get out of the Stone Age underwater. we assume. i could imagine another planet having geothermal vents hot enough to smelt bronze at least. anyway given that we were discussing evolutionary potential their aptitude for technology isn’t as relevant
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 03:23
|
|
|
mediaphage posted:we assume. i could imagine another planet having geothermal vents hot enough to smelt bronze at least. How do you get/study electronics underwater?
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 03:35
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:How do you get/study electronics underwater? Who says radially symmetric creatures can't live on land?
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 03:41
|
|
|
The post I was replying to said terrestrial animals, and honestly I dunno if radial symmetry is fundamentally strong enough to outcompete bilateral symmetry that it would ever be the dominant physical structure for large animals over bilateral even underwater. I don't think there are any animals without bilateral symmetry that even have brains, octopuses and squids are bilaterally symmetrical. I can't think of any strong reason that human-level sapience strictly cannot emerge in an aquatic creature, but the lack of fire, useful tools, and dexterous hands makes it seem unlikely.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 03:43
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:How do you get/study electronics underwater? please tell me all about Bronze Age electronics, I’d love to know more Classon Ave. Robot posted:The post I was replying to said terrestrial animals, and honestly I dunno if radial symmetry is fundamentally strong enough to outcompete bilateral symmetry that it would ever be the dominant physical structure for large animals over bilateral even underwater. I don't think there are any animals without bilateral symmetry that even have brains, octopuses and squids are bilaterally symmetrical. Octopus are hybrids of symmetry. They’re both bilaterally and radially symmetrical depending on the portion of the body you’re talking about. we literally have no way to really guess at any of this. it’s relatively easy to draw parallels with earth but outside of saying really big-trend stuff like big brains need a way to keep cool (edit: probably), i think there are too many definitive statements being made. mediaphage fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 04:05
|
|
|
mediaphage posted:please tell me all about Bronze Age electronics, I’d love to know more Well of course the Baghdad battery powered the giant lightbulbs and spaceship seen on temple-wall murals.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 04:10
|
|
|
mediaphage posted:please tell me all about Bronze Age electronics, I’d love to know more No need to be a dick, it was a legitimate question. A society that stops in the Bronze Age or even late Medieval Age isn't going to explore the cosmos.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 04:33
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:No need to be a dick, it was a legitimate question. A society that stops in the Bronze Age or even late Medieval Age isn't going to explore the cosmos. This does not mean they are not possible, but it would be a lot easier to imagine how beetles or bears could build radio telescopes vs. octopi or whales.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 04:57
|
|
|
I wasn’t trying to be a dick, it just felt like some “oh you can’t have underwater aliens! What about computers?” gotcha the discussion wasn’t limited to spacefaring civilizations; we were talking about basic evolutionary paths. it’s boring to only think about high-tech aliens. still lots of opportunities for culture, etc. sure, we might not get to talk to them anytime soon. mediaphage fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Oct 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 10:42
|
|
|
All aliens are omnisymmetrical ie spherical blobs
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 12:08
|
|
|
I just want an alien shaped like a donut.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 14:59
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I just want an alien shaped like a donut. Technically we are all donuts, just weirdly deformed ones with a really twisty hole.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 16:33
|
|
|
SerialKilldeer posted:Technically we are all donuts, just weirdly deformed ones with a really twisty hole. The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Disease & Disaster > Space Thread: Where We're Going You Won't Need poo poo to Post
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 17:16
|
|
|
SerialKilldeer posted:Technically we are all donuts, just weirdly deformed ones with a really twisty hole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egEraZP9yXQ We are a 7 hole donut.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 18:40
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:How do you get/study electronics underwater? Computation and electronics aren't the same thing; the first artificial 'computers' were mechanical devices. Electronics are a great medium for computation because of that whole 'speed of light' thing but there's no reason you couldn't use optics or something else to reach the Digital* Age. *Digital (1s and 0s) computation probably isn't strictly needed either but it's a easy enough representation that it'd probably be pretty common
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
Xand_Man posted:Computation and electronics aren't the same thing; the first artificial 'computers' were mechanical devices. Electronics are a great medium for computation because of that whole 'speed of light' thing but there's no reason you couldn't use optics or something else to reach the Digital* Age. Thanks, that's what I was looking for! I hadn't considered the separation between electronics and computation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 22:41
|
|
|
Computation with analog computers, while possible, will be orders of magnitude slower and more resource intensive than electronic computers. Without electrical technology that also limits your ability to extract energy from the environment. Things like photovoltaics become impossible. Even tidal or wind energy which might be readily available to an underwater civilization might not be able to be harvested effectively because you can't transmit it a reasonable distance using mechanical linkages. With electricity you can transmit it hundreds of miles with little loss.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
You could probably do something funky with geothermals. Theres also hypothetical interactions/explotation of the surface along shorelines which is an interesting concept.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:You could probably do something funky with geothermals. That'd still require hand equivalents, I think. I guess octopi in If we look at other examples of life on Earth, whales seem content just talking to each other (presumably), and when humanity attempted to communicate with dolphins, they made it abundantly clear what dolphins consider best in life (slightly not work safe Guardian article I guess about NASA's interest in dolphins in the 60's and what ensued, includes some icky details). I guess for the Fermi problem, the underwater scenario is a 'negative' result since it would be hard for "dolphins with arms" or whatever to try and communicate about their existence? I guess we could visit them, but this is a kind of an ethical gray area too, what with first contact stuff. Unless they do colonize the continents and figure out metalworking and radio/lasers. Can someone ITT think of ways to communicate without electronics and metals?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 05:04
|
|
|
CAROL posted:All aliens are omnisymmetrical ie spherical blobs I saw that made-for-tv Disney movie.   
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 08:45
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:That'd still require hand equivalents, I think. I guess octopi in Octopus analogs, yes, but you also have mudskippers and other "walking" fish which would also be another interesting avenue. Communication underwater is easer than in air. I think sound travels something like 4 times faster in water so you would probably just work with that. Whales are a good example since they communicate fairly long distance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 09:01
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:Octopus analogs, yes, but you also have mudskippers and other "walking" fish which would also be another interesting avenue. I meant communicate with other solar systems, sorry for being unclear 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 09:13
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:That'd still require hand equivalents, I think. I guess octopi in Underwater-beings could easily develop biomechanics further instead. There was this craze in the 90s about "biochips", electronics made from wetware, e.g. biological matter. There's no reason to think that an alien squid wouldn't try to manipulate living matter if their vents are too cold to smelt metal or something. Eventually, they'd probably work out how to transmit signals like radio between their bio-computers and they'd be good to go. And that's only if those hypothetical underwater civilizations resemble Earth-like life strong enough, if they're alien enough, all manners of poo poo could happen, like squids evolving tentacles fine-tuned enough to work as hands or something. Now that would be strange! Considering on Earth-like planets, life seems to develop in the ocean first, there are probably more intelligent civilizations around under the water than above. Simply because of statistics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 13:08
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Underwater-beings could easily develop biomechanics further instead. There was this craze in the 90s about "biochips", electronics made from wetware, e.g. biological matter. There's no reason to think that an alien squid wouldn't try to manipulate living matter if their vents are too cold to smelt metal or something. Earth octos are already damnably competent at manipulating poo poo sometimes, so the idea of one with better fine motor control would not shock me at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 13:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:47 |
|
|
The underwater aliens fire objection always seems dumb. If you can't have fire underwater just don't put the fire underwater. Invent some technology that you need dry oily rags for then leave them on a rock then come back and go 'wow, it's on fire" then put the next 250,000 years in figuring out about building safe fire pits in shallow water and on rocks and stuff. Like humans don't live underwater but still do processes that require water, so we had to spend centuries making huge complex systems to deal with that. Underwater aliens would need to do the same with things like fire and it'd slow them down, but as long as land exists at all they will figure out some things they want to do require them throwing things up on shore then retrieving them and after a few hundred thousand years of that they will figure out to build fire on a rock. There is very few sea creatures that literally can not even for a second have part of their body leave the water. An octopus city that kept it's space kelp supply drying in the sun on a small rock island would eventually have it catch fire by accident then eventually say "I could use this" then eventually build systems around that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2020 13:31
|
|