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Oct 27, 2020 21:24
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm not saying he engineered the whole thing. Just that the fake lynching (not the shooting) was his idea. I was under the impression that the merc gets shot, then Klaasje comes to the Hardies for help, then Ruby calls Evrart and he comes up with the plan. But even then that reduces Klassje to having no agency in events. She just becomes this sad girl swept up in things rather than her portrayal, which is as a master manipulator who is failing to avoid falling into old habits that got her exiled to Martinaise in the first place. Also, what motivation does Ruby have for continuing to cover for Evrart at the time she claims Klassje was the originator of the idea to fake the hanging? She's been betrayed by everyone and running for her life from who she thinks is Madre's enforcer. Sure nothing in the subtext explicitly contradicts the idea that Evrart was the one that came up with the fake hanging, but it's also thematically and narratively just out of left field. Why wouldn't they both just rat him out anyway if that were true? Both women had to get out of Martinaise at that point to avoid the wrath of the Moralintern/Madre, and it appears at least Evrart's reach doesn't extend outside of his little fiefdom based on the reaction of Kim and Jean.
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Oct 27, 2020 21:40
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm not saying he engineered the whole thing. Just that the fake lynching (not the shooting) was his idea. I was under the impression that the merc gets shot, then Klaasje comes to the Hardies for help, then Ruby calls Evrart and he comes up with the plan. I thought it was strongly implied by Ruby that Klassje had the hanging idea and was trying to frame Ruby by blaming it on her. The lividity suggests that they didn't hang around to consult; they hung him up in the bath tub pretty quickly before the lividity set in Edit: the post directly above makes the point better than I do. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 21:41
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necrobobsledder posted:The way Harry handles him significantly better than "normal" kids gave me an impression Harry was more aligned with him than most people although we don't ever talk about HDB's childhood in the game (which was a good idea I'd say). The Fifteenth Indotribe kind of clearly states that Harry's childhood was fairly similar to that of Cuno - he was somewhat of a street urchin. Plus, he worked as a gym teacher for a time - iirc it was in a school environment, hence why he can both be good with handling Cuno and show some neat feats of athleticism Fister Roboto posted:I was under the impression that the merc gets shot, then Klaasje comes to the Hardies for help, then Ruby calls Evrart and he comes up with the plan. I"m pretty sure Ruby directly states that Klaasje organized the whole thing, including hanging the merc in the bathtub beforehand (as mentioned in the previous posts). I didn't get the impression that she's lying, and she never once mentioned speaking to Evrart, I'm pretty sure - at least on the night of the hanging. I assume Evrart found out pretty quickly anyway, but I don't think he had any hand in causing this specific situation to happen the way it did - it was an interplay of passions and bad decisions completely unrelated to the surrounding political conflict (though the conflict provided the reason for everyone being there), which is very Noir and very *Disco*, I'd say
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Oct 27, 2020 22:00
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nurmie posted:The Fifteenth Indotribe kind of clearly states that Harry's childhood was fairly similar to that of Cuno - he was somewhat of a street urchin. Plus, he worked as a gym teacher for a time - iirc it was in a school environment, hence why he can both be good with handling Cuno and show some neat feats of athleticism
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Oct 27, 2020 22:33
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Lasting Damage posted:But even then that reduces Klassje to having no agency in events. She just becomes this sad girl swept up in things rather than her portrayal, which is as a master manipulator who is failing to avoid falling into old habits that got her exiled to Martinaise in the first place. Oh ok, I'm probably just misremembering things. I guess I also forgot that Klaasje thought the shot was meant for her.
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Oct 27, 2020 22:56
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You know what, having finished my hardcore playthrough last night, Vicquemare talks a lot of poo poo considering he's nowhere to be found when poo poo goes down. I may be a suicidal alcoholic high on a custom blend of every drug ever but when the chips are down I show up Nerd.
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Oct 27, 2020 23:11
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necrobobsledder posted:although we don't ever talk about HDB's childhood in the game (which was a good idea I'd say). There is actually something hidden on the subject in one of the thoughts. I don't know if this qualifies as a spoiler, but to just be sure: The Fifteenth Indotribe thought pretty much confirms (or at least strongly implies) that Harry used to run with a crew of delinquents and small-time hustlers in his adolescence. It also says that Harry is the only one from the gang who is still alive, as all his old friends ultimately suffered premature and rather tragic deaths.
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Oct 28, 2020 11:40
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no pressure???  
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Oct 28, 2020 13:01
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dog chat is weird when theres already the kindest creature in the world in game
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Oct 28, 2020 13:11
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I feel like devoting unnecessary time & effort to removing The Expression from my character's face (e) Couple mechanics questions this morning. If I forget a thought from the Cabinet, do I have to run down the timer again if I want it back later? And on that, how liberal is the game with levels and their precious, precious skill points? Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 13:57
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Fister Roboto posted:Oh ok, I'm probably just misremembering things. But that's also probably a lie intended to distract you. If Klassje thought the bullet was intended for her, why would she spend the next week smoking out in the open on her roof? She would immediately bolt or stay inside on the lower level if she thought someone wanted to snipe her. Klaasje lies about EVERYTHING, even things that are relatively pointless to lie about (as revealed by her lying about her true/fake name in her passport). I think the passport name reveal at the very end was the game's way of directly reminding you that Klaasje cannot be trusted on even minor details. It's not just the layers of lies and counter-lies that she constructs, but the incredible speed at which she tosses first the Hardy Boys, then Ruby, then you under the bus to draw attention away from herself that is remarkable. She purposefully set in motion the Hardie Boys vs. Mercs shootout with the lynching plan. She also expertly convinced you that Ruby was the true mastermind, and I wouldn't be surprised if she planted the otherwise unfounded idea that you were a mob hitman in Ruby's head, guaranteeing that your confrontation with Ruby was much more hostile than it otherwise would have needed to be. The net result of everything is a lot of explosive violence, and the perfect cover for her to vanish during with no survivors especially interested in pursuing her.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:52
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Cao Ni Ma posted:dog chat is weird when theres already the kindest creature in the world in game This. Nothing more needs be said. Ciaphas posted:I feel like devoting unnecessary time & effort to removing The Expression from my character's face You get like 60 levels usually, more if you internalize certain thoughts that give fuckloads of xp. necrobobsledder posted:I'm saying that DE would probably do a better take on the trope of someone not capable of human relationships or responsibilities to handle animals than how John Wick did in movie form. Maybe the point is the game isn't trying to let you slip back into comfort food because it doesn't help you learn anything. Have you considered that might be the case?
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Oct 28, 2020 15:15
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HDB strikes me as a man who could provide a child with a very stable and caring upbringing
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Oct 28, 2020 15:26
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Dinner table conversations/bedtime stories that last until 2am every day leaves little time for kids to get up to no good.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:28
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Subvisual Haze posted:But that's also probably a lie intended to distract you. If Klassje thought the bullet was intended for her, why would she spend the next week smoking out in the open on her roof? She would immediately bolt or stay inside on the lower level if she thought someone wanted to snipe her. This is why I feel the correct moral thing to do is to arrest her because if she is allowed to continue living she will continue to throw people in lethal harm's way if she thinks it will save her skin. Doesn't matter that her enemies are the worst people in the setting, she's a danger to everyone she gets involved with
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Oct 28, 2020 16:20
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Subvisual Haze posted:But that's also probably a lie intended to distract you. If Klassje thought the bullet was intended for her, why would she spend the next week smoking out in the open on her roof? She would immediately bolt or stay inside on the lower level if she thought someone wanted to snipe her. Man this game is good.
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Oct 28, 2020 16:25
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The failed Hardie Boys check leading to the "Cock Carousal" heart attack but for Klassje
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Oct 28, 2020 16:27
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Subvisual Haze posted:But that's also probably a lie intended to distract you. If Klassje thought the bullet was intended for her, why would she spend the next week smoking out in the open on her roof? She would immediately bolt or stay inside on the lower level if she thought someone wanted to snipe her. she's hanging around on the roof because part of her wants the sniper to take another shot and finish the job. for all her duplicity, klassje's not totally cold - she genuinely did like lely and she probably attributes his death to being in proximity to a fugitive like herself. the entire frame job around lely's death was definitely masterminded by her, with evrart just adapting to circumstances as they arose, but if she was a total ice queen then she wouldn't have left you the final hint to catch the sniper, whether out of guilt or gratitude, and it's almost certain she didn't anticipate or want the subsequent shootout (though of course she still takes advantage of it as it comes) trying to pin any of the characters involved with the hanged man as a completely devious plotter is a waste of time, because everyone in disco elysium is, to some extent, a complicated and self-contradictory mess. even kim, holiest of holies, eventually smokes his nighttime cigarette in the morning
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Oct 28, 2020 16:41
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Oxxidation posted:even kim, holiest of holies, eventually smokes his nighttime cigarette in the morning "This is the one."
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Oct 28, 2020 17:25
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Subvisual Haze posted:Klaasje lies about EVERYTHING, even things that are relatively pointless to lie about (as revealed by her lying about her true/fake name in her passport). I think the passport name reveal at the very end was the game's way of directly reminding you that Klaasje cannot be trusted on even minor details. [/spoiler] FWIW if you arrest Klassje, she does die. Which suggests that this particular lie is far from pointless. I really like the depth of the Klassje and "Femme fatale? Maybe?!" rabbit hole. Which of your many conflicting biases and wants is preventing you from seeing the truth and how do you value what is likely true? The whole interaction becomes more of a mirror of the player's mind than the game, somehow.
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Oct 28, 2020 17:45
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Mr. Lobe posted:This is why I feel the correct moral thing to do is to arrest her because if she is allowed to continue living she will continue to throw people in lethal harm's way if she thinks it will save her skin. Doesn't matter that her enemies are the worst people in the setting, she's a danger to everyone she gets involved with Spoken like a true moralist.
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Oct 28, 2020 17:57
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Yeah turning Klaasje in is indefensible It is flat out saying 'I think this person is so broken, so irredeemable, that they must die. They don't deserve a chance at redemption'. You know this even before the ending makes it clear you killed her by playing Hardass Cop. There's a reason Volition acquiesces when you show mercy. Who are you to say who doesn't deserve a second chance? Why should a complete fuckup cast judgement on another fuckup's life?
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Oct 28, 2020 18:01
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Also you're just helping the elite clean up their loose ends.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:09
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Transient People posted:Yeah turning Klaasje in is indefensible That relies on knowledge you don't have at the moment of decision though. At the moment where you make the decision regarding Klaasje you don't know that she will bolt when you confront Ruby, that her current story is yet another lie putting others in harms way, that choosing to arrest her will result in her death, or that the middle path of giving her a citation to appear at the station will be ignored Trying to find the perfect/correct solution after the fact kind of misses the point of roleplaying a character trying to make a decision with very incomplete information. It's kind of existential really. You have to live life forward but can only understand it backwards.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:13
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you want me to just go around arresting people? what? like some sort of cop???
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Oct 28, 2020 18:29
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Subvisual Haze posted:That relies on knowledge you don't have at the moment of decision though. At the moment where you make the decision regarding Klaasje you don't know that she will bolt when you confront Ruby, that her current story is yet another lie putting others in harms way, that choosing to arrest her will result in her death, or that the middle path of giving her a citation to appear at the station will be ignored Trying to find the perfect/correct solution after the fact kind of misses the point of roleplaying a character trying to make a decision with very incomplete information. No, you do know she'll run. Kim tells you as much. Volition tells you as much too. The whole dilemma is 'if I show mercy, she'll probably bail, but if I don't, the Moralintern will kill her'. Go reread the conversation. This is stated by the text. That's what makes it compelling, and what apparently a lot of people missed. You don't know exactly what Klaasje will do by the end of her interview, but you have enough information to understand what the likely consequences of your actions will be.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:30
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This person who has repeatedly lied to me has told me that if I arrest her she will die (and it will be my fault). This time I can be confident that she is telling the truth and not just emotionally blackmailing me for personal gain.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:53
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Subvisual Haze posted:This person who has repeatedly lied to me has told me that if I arrest her she will die (and it will be my fault). This time I can be confident that she is telling the truth and not just emotionally blackmailing me for personal gain. given the extreme lengths she went through to avoid being sniffed out by the moralintern you can probably deduce that Very Bad Things will happen to her if she's brought in, irrespective of her own testimony
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Oct 28, 2020 18:56
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though i'll admit my guiding principle in that decision (and all other things) was raw spite the moralintern's representative in revachol is the sunday friend. you're going help the sunday friend? you're going to be a friend to the sunday friend? no thanks, i'll take possible bamboozlement over complicity in that poo poo
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Oct 28, 2020 18:58
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re: Klaasje If there's anyone you can trust, it's Shivers. And Shivers does have something to say about her.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:59
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Subvisual Haze posted:This person who has repeatedly lied to me has told me that if I arrest her she will die (and it will be my fault). This time I can be confident that she is telling the truth and not just emotionally blackmailing me for personal gain. Obviously, yes. Multiple outside and internal sources point that way...and the fundamental fact is Klaasje lies with truth. A good liar doesn't just 100% make up bullshit, and she's an excellent one. It's facile to assume everything she says is untrustworthy, and reductionist. You're a better detective than that. Part of being a good detective is knowing how to spot truth in a pack of lies.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:05
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Cao Ni Ma posted:dog chat is weird when theres already the kindest creature in the world in game Subvisual Haze posted:This person who has repeatedly lied to me has told me that if I arrest her she will die (and it will be my fault). This time I can be confident that she is telling the truth and not just emotionally blackmailing me for personal gain.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:07
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Disco Dancer DLC when??? Seriously though, she's one of the most interesting parts of the whole game to me. I'd love to dive deeper into her past as a playable character.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:09
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necrobobsledder posted:Wasn't looking for a "kind" creature for fun cute fodder or whatever but something that can be nurtured, neglected, etc. Perhaps a simple plant could have sufficed for the same dimension given how good the writing is. Also, not sure what it could be if we're not being ironic or cheeky here because the phasmid isn't one I'd consider "kind" unless we count "doesn't kill and torture you" as a level of compassion. How is it that you don't count a living miracle as an expression of kindness? One that actively, gently encourages you to move on from your worst tendencies, even.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:14
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oh you were serious about that dog post
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Oct 28, 2020 19:18
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Oxxidation posted:she's hanging around on the roof because part of her wants the sniper to take another shot and finish the job. for all her duplicity, klassje's not totally cold - she genuinely did like lely and she probably attributes his death to being in proximity to a fugitive like herself. the entire frame job around lely's death was definitely masterminded by her, with evrart just adapting to circumstances as they arose, but if she was a total ice queen then she wouldn't have left you the final hint to catch the sniper, whether out of guilt or gratitude, and it's almost certain she didn't anticipate or want the subsequent shootout (though of course she still takes advantage of it as it comes) also, she's the person who called about the body. that was not a good move on her part, for obvious reasons. you can call her on that, and i think we're supposed to believe the emotion in her response.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:19
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Honestly I'm not sure if it's more meaningful if the phasmid is actually saying that to Harry, or whether it's just Harry using Inland Empire to tell himself that via the phasmid
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Oct 28, 2020 19:20
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Transient People posted:How is it that you don't count a living miracle as an expression of kindness? One that actively, gently encourages you to move on from your worst tendencies, even.
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Oct 28, 2020 19:24
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I liked this game because it explicitly doesn't have something, like an animal, trying to make you a better version of yourself. I both do not think that is what life is like, and definitely do not think that is what life is like in the DE universe. It's rough and gross and the game allows you to revel in it. EDIT: In fact, the only thing I can think of that even comes close is Kim, who rules. He has his own story and his own life but provides a realistic level of support to someone with the past and tendencies of HDB. Claes Oldenburger fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 19:29
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