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forkboy84 posted:I think the Socialist Campaign Group would be stronger as a force outside the party than in it because a Labour government would not be possible without their support (or an unlikely massive Lab landslide). If the SCG left Labour they'd be marking time in parliament until the next election, with no power due to the big Tory majority, and then they'd be wiped out. Just like the CUKs. Labour would replace them with more right-wing MPs and the party would shift to the right. If the SCG stay and Starmer miraculously pulls of a Labour government with a small majority, they can torpedo any of his legislation they like. Which sounds like a stronger force?
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Oct 29, 2020 15:45
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The idea of voting labour to preserve hypothetical lives held more weight when I was less convinced that most of them were not irredeemable pieces of poo poo, to be honest. I got plenty of exposure to the people I'm supposed to be caring about last election and very few of them seemed like they improve the world for their participation in it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 15:46
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Gort posted:What does "flipping over the table" look like, though? If your alternative to "vote for the lesser evil" is "do literally nothing", you're still better off voting for the lesser evil. EDIT nah inadvisable
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Oct 29, 2020 15:47
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loving outraged at Starmer I never supported Labour (because there was and still is literally no reason to support Labour while they're still hardcore unionists) but I had nothing but respect for Corbyn and his efforts to build an actual social democratic party in England and Wales, and the fact that he didn't purge the loving Blairites from the party in 2017 while he had the chance really pisses me off, because it just made this day inevitable The Labour Party is irredeemable loving garbage
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Oct 29, 2020 15:47
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RBA Starblade posted:I haven't checked in on it in a while, how's Brexit going? I've been looking at articles but can't really tell beyond "trade deals ending December". It’s really not going anywhere. Tories currently waiting on the US election - if Trump wins, we’ll go hard Brexit and sell the NHS to the US, if Biden wins we’ll go to the EU cap in hand and accept what scraps they offer us at that point since the Democrats are really not keen on us just binning off the Good Friday Agreement.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:48
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don't really get why starmer is pussyfooting around this. this is a victory for him he should own it. i guess he wants the process to appear neutral and automated, which makes sense given his history
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Oct 29, 2020 15:48
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I don't think the suspension will stick - it's not like kicking people from the front bench, which is up to the leader's discretion The left still solidly controls the constitutional committee after the Corbyn-period reforms (which, ahem, may be one reason Starmer was intending to abolish it before coronavirus knocked Conference 2020 off the rails). More than 3/4 of it was elected at the height of Corbyn's power in 2018 Still, even if the suspension is then lifted it'll still send a signal of where the leadership stands on the issue
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Oct 29, 2020 15:49
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https://twitter.com/michaeljswalker/status/1321822031026020353
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Oct 29, 2020 15:49
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The Night of The Long Tweets
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Oct 29, 2020 15:50
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It seems to me absolutely mad that just questioning the EHRC’s report is evidence of antisemitism and grounds for suspension. Couldn’t imagine that ever holding up in court if it came to it.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:50
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Borrovan posted:This is an immediate, half-baked opinion, & may change. Will do fairly loving quickly if a Momentum/SCG split-off happens. I mean the original purpose of Momentum was to be a broad leftist pressure group inside and outside of the Labour Party iirc. That got changed to requiring Labour membership because we didn't want a bunch of literal Trots coming in and trying to hijack it, but no reason it couldn't be changed back?
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Oct 29, 2020 15:51
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Communist Thoughts posted:don't really get why starmer is pussyfooting around this. Suspending a former Labour leader the day that Labour leader got reprimanded for just pushing for a suspension probably something to do with it. Got to keep the barest of kayfabe after all.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:51
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jabby posted:My issue with this approach is it seems either a bit privileged or a bit nihilistic. I do think New Labour did more good and saved more lives than the Tories would have. I think less poor people would die under a Starmer government than whoever the next Tory leader will be. Yeah, I'm open to the accusation of nihilism, though I'd normally get cursey about even the insinuation of the accusation of privilege from someone who earns is a doctor to someone who floats from menial minimal wage job to the dole & back but I'm remaining comradely. I don't believe the Labour Party is a vehicle for socialism. I don't believe that humanity can survive without socialism. So I'm entirely willing to slash & burn in the short-term to see long-term victory. I'd not call it nihilism but I can see why someone might. The policies of New Labour are just the policies of the Tories with the brakes on a little & the reason I think this is bad is it gives us longer to be normalised to this lovely neoliberal hellscape & the apparent "inevitability" of it. I think accelerationism is, from where I stand as a poor white male who relies on the NHS to stop my brain from telling me stepping in front of a bus is a good idea, the only moral choice. Slightly slower neoliberalism is loving poison from where I am & clearly does a terrific job of taking the fight out of people. Yes, it means people die & things get bad. I hate that. But it also leaves the prospect of things getting better once you hit rock bottom as opposed to the alternative of a slow steady descent with no stopping it.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:52
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Didn't some right wing Labour MPs also question the EHRC's independence way before any of this happened, owing to their being obvious Government stooges? Someone report them for antisemitism
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Oct 29, 2020 15:52
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im of two minds about the harm reduction argument cause it seems very short termist. its likely that kier would be... at least for some people, better than boris but i think its also very likely we see more wars and an expansion of the security state and more little booby traps and gifts given for the future tory government that takes over from them. plus allowing the right wing to go "look its the lefts fault everything is poo poo" while kier defends austerity. like PFI continues to gently caress us 20 years on and blair set the ground for cam/borne and they set the ground for this. new labour almost eradicated homelessness which was great but then the tories just come in and bring it back immediately whereas more tory garbage is just more tory garbage and if starmer eats a huge amount of poo poo then we have the slim possibility of a better labour party after that
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Oct 29, 2020 15:52
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Communist Thoughts posted:don't really get why starmer is pussyfooting around this. I can't find the source of the claim pinning it on Evans (the gen sec who replaced Formby) it may be this: https://labourlist.org/2020/10/exclusive-local-parties-warned-by-labour-not-to-reject-ehrc-report/ quote:In response to the publication of the report, general secretary David Evans – who was appointed under Keir Starmer’s leadership – has sent an email and briefing to local party chairs and secretaries. still - there doesn't appear to be any process for Evans to actually enforce this. This was already much pointed out by the left back in August ronya fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 15:53
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Brendan Rodgers posted:This is just hostage taking though. I don't mean to be reductive, but as a thought experiment, what if the tories promised to kill 10,000 in their first year but Starmer promised to kill 9999? It all depends how your perceive your other options. If you only have the options to kill 9999 people or 10,000, you should go with killing 9999. If you have the option to smash the system so that nobody dies, obviously you should do that. But to me not voting (or not voting Labour in a marginal) isn't smashing the system and doesn't mean nobody will die. It's closing your eyes and letting the one extra person die because you'd rather be able to say you weren't involved. Which to me, is also a choice.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:53
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Gort posted:What does "flipping over the table" look like, though? If your alternative to "vote for the lesser evil" is "do literally nothing", you're still better off voting for the lesser evil. Something something liberty or death.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:53
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jabby posted:It all depends how your perceive your other options. if its voting though theres gonna be 30 million people pressing the buttons, you dont need to press either of them. you can press the button marked "don't kill anyone" even if you know that everyone else as far as the eye can see will be mashing the kill buttons
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Oct 29, 2020 15:55
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ronya posted:Corbyn's not going to be kicked out Nine pages behind and still catching up, but heh. I wouldn't blame him for giving up but please, please, new party now.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:56
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Borrovan posted:Didn't some right wing Labour MPs also question the EHRC's independence way before any of this happened, owing to their being obvious Government stooges? Yvette cooper lol The new general sec of the party was big into purging the left under Kinnock so this is no surprise
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Oct 29, 2020 15:56
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Anyway what happened with the cyclist? Could be part of why Starmer is so keen on swamping media with suspending Corbyn.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:56
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if suspending Corbyn was in any way justifiable then Starmer could stand up and say "we've got very clear rules and he broke them, no-one is above the law" etc etc but the fact that no-one wants to take responsibility for the decision is just more evidence that this is just one more "fffuuuuuck yoooouuu" to the left wing of the party
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Oct 29, 2020 15:57
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RockyB posted:Nine pages behind and still catching up, but heh. tbf he isnt kicked out yet. i am pleased i got the chaos i wanted tho
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Oct 29, 2020 15:57
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RockyB posted:Nine pages behind and still catching up, but heh. I am a little surprised by the turn of events
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Oct 29, 2020 15:57
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Noxville posted:It’s really not going anywhere. Tories currently waiting on the US election - if Trump wins, we’ll go hard Brexit and sell the NHS to the US, if Biden wins we’ll go to the EU cap in hand and accept what scraps they offer us at that point since the Democrats are really not keen on us just binning off the Good Friday Agreement. Thanks for the brief update, that makes sense. Sorry to see you guys got hosed here while I was writing that post
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Oct 29, 2020 15:58
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https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/1321828492837834752?s=20
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Oct 29, 2020 15:58
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https://twitter.com/jrschlosberg/status/1321781717749932032
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Oct 29, 2020 15:58
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Can’t wait for kier to lose the next election and then blaming it on those worthless leftists And youths not voting for him, after promising nothing but poo poo for 5 years to them.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:59
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah, I'm open to the accusation of nihilism, though I'd normally get cursey about even the insinuation of the accusation of privilege from someone who earns is a doctor to someone who floats from menial minimal wage job to the dole & back but I'm remaining comradely. I don't believe the Labour Party is a vehicle for socialism. I don't believe that humanity can survive without socialism. So I'm entirely willing to slash & burn in the short-term to see long-term victory. I'd not call it nihilism but I can see why someone might. The policies of New Labour are just the policies of the Tories with the brakes on a little & the reason I think this is bad is it gives us longer to be normalised to this lovely neoliberal hellscape & the apparent "inevitability" of it. I think accelerationism is, from where I stand as a poor white male who relies on the NHS to stop my brain from telling me stepping in front of a bus is a good idea, the only moral choice. Slightly slower neoliberalism is loving poison from where I am & clearly does a terrific job of taking the fight out of people. For clarity, I'm not saying you're privileged and I'm not. I am very privileged (and I had no idea about you until this post) which is why I'm so reluctant to take an accelerationist position, since it dooms other people in order to further my political goals. If you're at the bottom end of the privilege spectrum it's probably a more defensible position since you shoulder more of the risk yourself, but it's still not something I'd be happy with. It's just too big a gamble that once you hit "rock bottom" what comes after is better. Communist Thoughts posted:if its voting though theres gonna be 30 million people pressing the buttons, you dont need to press either of them. This is just pussying out and relying on everyone else to vote the right way though. You can go down the path of "my vote won't change the outcome, so I won't vote" but that's different from "I don't care who gets in"/"I want the Tories to get in for accelerationist purposes". jabby fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 15:59
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I for one am appalled at this factional student politics when Labour should be holding the Tories to account at a time of national crisis.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:59
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Corbyn on FB:
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Oct 29, 2020 16:00
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jabby posted:It all depends how your perceive your other options. And next time it's increased to 20,000 and 19,999. And so on.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:02
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Corbyn on FB: This is easily the worst thing about Corbyn: that he refuses to acknowledge the actual ideological and class warfare reasons for the way he is treated. By the press and by a significant part of his own party. He should've purged the fuckers when he had the chance. Instead he appears to still believe them to be on the same side as us.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:05
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Arguing that you should eat a poo poo burger instead of a poo poo sandwich because at least the poo poo burger is marginally smaller and therefore has less fecal matter in it, because hey, you gotta eat something! Isn’t an argument, it’s a Torture dungeon. Labour under starmer isn’t going to do anything other than adjust the knobs on the loving machine so it maybe fucks you only 5% more than this year instead Of The tories 10%. The only way you personally send a message that this isn’t okay is to not vote for them.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:06
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I'm mad
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Oct 29, 2020 16:06
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as I've said before, England needs communism idgaf what Scotland does after it gets its independence as long as it's not run by TERFs and/or Tories, ditto for Wales, but England needs nothing less than full communism now
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Oct 29, 2020 16:07
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jabby posted:For clarity, I'm not saying you're privileged and I'm not. I am very privileged (and I had no idea about you until this post) which is why I'm so reluctant to take an accelerationist position, since it dooms other people in order to further my political goals. If you're at the bottom end of the privilege spectrum it's probably a more defensible position since you shoulder more of the risk yourself, but it's still not something I'd be happy with. It's just too big a gamble that once you hit "rock bottom" what comes after is better. Yeah, there's a reason I've only come to it now rather than earlier. It's not good, I don't like accelerationism but I just don't see anything else as a better choice. The status quo is just a long, slow, death by 1,000 cuts situation & accelerationism feels like a big chance of a quick death & maybe a chance at something better. I hate that it's the best option but that's my view on it all. I mean, it's totally my own fault I am where I am, I'm a lazy fucker who doesn't stick at anything & has no ambitions except for a quiet life where I can get by with minimal stress & able to enjoy the things I enjoy. But it still makes me feel..not comfortable with accelerationism but it really does feel like the best choice sadly.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:07
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I would be surprised if he is ignorant of the reasons, but he consistently refuses to publicly attack the party as a result, which is consistent with the fact that he has been a member of it for a very long time.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:07
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Orange Devil posted:This is easily the worst thing about Corbyn: that he refuses to acknowledge the actual ideological and class warfare reasons for the way he is treated. By the press and by a significant part of his own party. He should've purged the fuckers when he had the chance. Instead he appears to still believe them to be on the same side as us. He's staggeringly naive & optimistic & the more time passes the more I resent him. At some point it stops being "what a nice guy" & starts coming off like "loving hell are you a moron or something?"
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Oct 29, 2020 16:08
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