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Rev. Bleech_ posted:the best part of the "MJ is smoking" plot thread was that one time the soap director got mad because she was smoking while shooting a scene. I guess no one noticed until the cameras had been rolling a few minutes. Kirsten dunst 42069 smoke weed erry day
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Oct 29, 2020 01:21
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Bitch
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Oct 29, 2020 01:22
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Yvonmukluk posted:I'll be honest, none of the stories when it comes to Peter's relationships post-OMD feel like they were anything new or interesting. Oh no, Carlie/Michelle/Cissy Ironwood got mad at Peter for missing a date because he's secretly Spider-Man! That's never happened before! Oh yeah, OMD is one of the dumbest literary decisions ever. It shouldn't have happened and I'm glad it's getting unhappened. But just recently I've randomly read a couple comics from the marriage era and both of them featured fairly dreadful "Mary Jane is under stress because of Peter's superheroing and Peter feels guilty about it" subplots. So I do hope that in the intervening time they've figured out a different take on their marriage.
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Oct 29, 2020 01:30
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I would like to see them continue the classic Spider-Man trope of him having problems he has to deal with, but updated from Aunt May will die if he doesn't sell some Spidey pix. The problem with the marriage is that it adds almost nothing unless the either have kids or something causes marital trouble. One More Day would have been much better if MJ had caught Spider-Man sleeping with Black Cat causing their marriage to be strained, rather than MJ making a deal with the (essentially) literal devil.
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Oct 29, 2020 01:39
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Lord_Hambrose posted:The problem with the marriage is that it adds almost nothing unless the either have kids or something causes marital trouble. This is one of the most wrongest opinions that ever wronged.
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Oct 29, 2020 01:45
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For a low-level superhero like Spider-Man who is often on the outs with the media and the authorities, having a spouse as a constant source of support and love and reassurance is a pretty big addition
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Oct 29, 2020 01:48
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Gripweed posted:Oh yeah, OMD is one of the dumbest literary decisions ever. It shouldn't have happened and I'm glad it's getting unhappened. But just recently I've randomly read a couple comics from the marriage era and both of them featured fairly dreadful "Mary Jane is under stress because of Peter's superheroing and Peter feels guilty about it" subplots. So I do hope that in the intervening time they've figured out a different take on their marriage. I think a lot of it is that a lot of the writers in the immediate post-marriage era weren't really in favour of the story at all, so they were stuck writing a status quo they weren't really invested in or outright opposed. Whereas writers who came into it knowing Peter & MJ as married (or at least as a couple) and being on board with the idea are able to do great things - whatever else you can say about the JMS run, he did great stuff with MJ, you've got Fraction giving us To Have and To Hold even Millar doing some great work with Marvel Knights, and of course Kraven's Last Hunt. More recent stuff like Taylor in Friendly Neighbourhood, the Iceman issue where Peter & MJ show up as supporting characters, or Amazing Mary Jane, to say nothing of Spencer's own take on MJ, all show that the current bench of writers can write them well.
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Oct 29, 2020 01:51
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And let's not forget Newspaper Spider-man, where Mary Jane is basically more of a protagonist than Spider-man is.
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Oct 29, 2020 01:55
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Dawgstar posted:The one I'm thinking of was the guy who got Peter and MJ kicked out of their Central Park high rise (on Christmas!), kidnapped her at one point, sent Styx and Stone after her, generally made her life a living hell and saw to it she couldn't get any modeling gigs (although she started with a soap opera and I think that's when she became an actress) then kidnapped her again but the rich stalker was killed by a cop who was also obsessed with MJ who I think only came up a few issues earlier. This was all David Michelinie's work who I consider a good Spidey writer overall but did nothing much with Mary Jane which does not admittedly make him stand out among the pack. You know, Michelinie was on ASM for a long time and presided over some significant changes to the character that at least have had an impact to this day, but the further out I get from that run, the less able I am to consider it "good." It's really benefiting from the accumulated goodwill that Michelinie got from working with McFarlane, then Larsen, and finally Bagley all in a row. Taking the writing on its own merits outside of that, it has surprisingly little going for it. It's very standard superhero fare with a lot of gimmick arcs, and once they realized Venom was a hit, the entire book bends around that gravity well for the next decade. It wasn't until relatively recently that I realized part of my antipathy for Venom as a character comes from how my first Spider-Man books were Roger Stern's, where Peter is driving himself crazy looking for Hobgoblin due to his neurosis. It rang real hollow for Peter to turn around and be so poo poo-scared of Venom in the Michelinie run that, for example, he'd be willing to fake his death so Venom would leave town.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:04
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:what sort of psycho would get back with the guy who sold their marriage to satan if they knew about it? I have this vague memory of a comic that tried to make it so actually it was MJ who made the deal and said Peter totally never would’ve done something like that without her egging him on.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:11
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Yvonmukluk posted:More recent stuff like Taylor in Friendly Neighbourhood, the Iceman issue where Peter & MJ show up as supporting characters, or Amazing Mary Jane, to say nothing of Spencer's own take on MJ, all show that the current bench of writers can write them well. I'd throw Renew Your Vows in that bucket too.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:13
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Wanderer posted:You know, Michelinie was on ASM for a long time and presided over some significant changes to the character that at least have had an impact to this day, but the further out I get from that run, the less able I am to consider it "good." It's really benefiting from the accumulated goodwill that Michelinie got from working with McFarlane, then Larsen, and finally Bagley all in a row. He faked his own death on a remote island where Venom could live out his years peacefully while Spider-Man hitched a ride on a passing freight boat. Spider-Man realized he couldn't defeat Venom without killing Venom so he found a third option.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:17
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Mary Jane should be free of Spider-Mans bullshit and allowed to flourish in her own solo series again. RIP.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:20
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Mary Jane should be free of Spider-Mans bullshit and allowed to flourish in her own solo series again. RIP. She was pretty good as a supporting character in Bendis' Iron Man but no one else has touched on that since Bendis went to DC.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:22
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Wanderer posted:You know, Michelinie was on ASM for a long time and presided over some significant changes to the character that at least have had an impact to this day, but the further out I get from that run, the less able I am to consider it "good." It's really benefiting from the accumulated goodwill that Michelinie got from working with McFarlane, then Larsen, and finally Bagley all in a row. It's been many years but when I first got to read through the whole Micheline run I had been anticipating the Bagley run and I ended up feeling like he was wasted on it. Might be worth reading through it again to give it a second shot because I do adore Bagley as a Spider-Man artist.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:53
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Skwirl posted:She was pretty good as a supporting character in Bendis' Iron Man but no one else has touched on that since Bendis went to DC. I think that's for the best since I trust literally no writer to make a good story out of a new SHIELD team of Iron Man, a bunch of assorted other random armor themed heroes, plus Blade, the whole Morales family, and Leonardo Da Vinci. I mean, it sounds like... something all right, but I don't trust any writer to make it good. e: oh I guess for MJ specifically that could build to some new status quo... but yeah it's probably better to leave that in the past.
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Oct 29, 2020 04:09
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Yvonmukluk posted:I mean, honestly a rich guy using his connections to ruin a model/actress' career because she won't sleep with him seems like the kind of story that's got a lot of resonance with a modern audience. You kinda make it sound like it was compressed into one arc and not a long-running subplot over the course of his run - so I'm not sure where you're getting that he didn't do anything with Mary Jane given you know, that whole subplot he gave her (including rescuing herself a few times and even Peter at one point). Because it was both trite and ended with the 'whoop also she has another stalker' bit? Obviously, yes, superheroes are also soap opera but be engaging. Wanderer posted:You know, Michelinie was on ASM for a long time and presided over some significant changes to the character that at least have had an impact to this day, but the further out I get from that run, the less able I am to consider it "good." It's really benefiting from the accumulated goodwill that Michelinie got from working with McFarlane, then Larsen, and finally Bagley all in a row. It seemed like under his tenure they really went hard on the company wide crossovers (Spidey getting Inferno and Acts of Vengeance) plus if you want to talk about 'writing for trade paperbacks' Amazing Spider-Man did it before it was a thing with the AssassiNation Plot, the Return of the Sinister Six, Round Robin: The Sidekick's Revenge and of course Maximum Carnage and all that followed. I wonder now how much of it was editorial past the company wide stuff. Speaking of women in Michelinie's run, I forgot that's where Black Cat comes back and starts dating Flash as a way to get back at Peter. Not so much to make him jealous but more 'ooh, is she going to reveal his secret identity?' How they split up I no longer remember. (Maybe Vulpes does. Actually probably he does.)
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Oct 29, 2020 04:31
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I would like to see them continue the classic Spider-Man trope of him having problems he has to deal with, but updated from Aunt May will die if he doesn't sell some Spidey pix. The problem with the marriage is that it adds almost nothing unless the either have kids or something causes marital trouble. TheHan posted:I have this vague memory of a comic that tried to make it so actually it was MJ who made the deal and said Peter totally never would’ve done something like that without her egging him on. howe_sam posted:I'd throw Renew Your Vows in that bucket too. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 10:55
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Yeah I think even aside from the abject absurdity of One More day even by comics' campy, goofy, melodramatic standards, the main problem was that it was just an utterly toxic character moment for everyone involved. Peter goes to the smartest and most powerful people in the universe to help, including the most powerful sorceror in the universe and Reed Richards who has a son who can reshape the universe on a whim, but suddenly they're all like "A bullet to the liver? Nothing I can do about that." Peter and MJ are so beholden to their elderly aunt that they willingly make a deal with the devil to destroy their relationship to save her for a few more months or however long the terminally old May Parker has left. Even Mephisto looks like a complete punk. You're the ultimate evil in the universe, why are you spending so much time breaking up this one marriage? Don't you have a reality-destroying Hell War to plan?
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Oct 29, 2020 12:10
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Yvonmukluk posted:I mean, yes it would have been better had the marriage not literally ended by infernal intervention, but you went to 'Peter cheating on his wife literally out of the blue' over something like 'Peter literally being afraid for MJ's life after May got shot and pushed her away for her own safety'? Seriously? No, I don't really mean that specific example just some kind of drama that doesn't really stem directly from super villains or something like that. I think in the long term telling stories about rising tension from Peter missing yet another one of Mary Jane's chemo treatments because he is stopping the Rhino from robbing a bank is a little more of a fertile ground than Mary Jane just getting captured by super villains yet again. I get it. As a long term comic reader I don't mind reading the same thing over and over again. I love seeing my pal Spider-Man having a fun adventure every month. It is a great thing to read a story you have been comfortable with for decades one more time with minor changes. But you can also do more than just that with comics. Peter Parker has always been the guy with problems, I just wish he had some new ones that were also grounded.
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Oct 29, 2020 12:34
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Nilbop posted:Yeah I think even aside from the abject absurdity of One More day even by comics' campy, goofy, melodramatic standards, the main problem was that it was just an utterly toxic character moment for everyone involved. Doesn't get the the buck get super passed around as to whose idea it was now? Like JMS is all 'it was Joe's idea' and vice versa? They sure did an idea they all claim was a bad one now.
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Oct 29, 2020 12:49
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Dawgstar posted:Doesn't get the the buck get super passed around as to whose idea it was now? Like JMS is all 'it was Joe's idea' and vice versa? They sure did an idea they all claim was a bad one now. JoeQ was the most vocal about it in interviews so I'd put the blame on him.
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Oct 29, 2020 13:11
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He also had seniority as the EiC so yeah, I'd probably put this on him.
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Oct 29, 2020 13:20
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Nilbop posted:Yeah I think even aside from the abject absurdity of One More day even by comics' campy, goofy, melodramatic standards, the main problem was that it was just an utterly toxic character moment for everyone involved. I jut kind of no-prized that Peter never actually got to Strange (or he subverted that spell where Peter went to ask everyone at once) and it was all Mephisto's smoke & mirrors rather than him actually asking people for help, hence why nobody could. As for screwing with Peter, I can absolutely se Mephisto do that. He's all about evil at all levels. Plus maybe he was still mad he technically owes his existence (and the existence of the universe itself, but still) to Spidey from Secret Wars II.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:46
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Nilbop posted:Yeah I think even aside from the abject absurdity of One More day even by comics' campy, goofy, melodramatic standards, the main problem was that it was just an utterly toxic character moment for everyone involved. It just felt so meta. Like Daffy Duck facing off against the animator. Peter wasn't talking to Mephisto, he was talking to Quesada.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:56
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The funny thing about One More Day that you can see now more than a decade out from it is...it kind of didn't even matter, huh?
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Oct 29, 2020 17:18
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Blockhouse posted:The funny thing about One More Day that you can see now more than a decade out from it is...it kind of didn't even matter, huh? How so?
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Oct 29, 2020 17:19
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Yvonmukluk posted:How so? Here we are in 2020. Peter and Mary Jane are a couple again. Almost every concept that was wiped out in OMD has made its way back to comics in some form. All the rage and fury over OMD and it didn't really save or condemn the franchise to doom like many people around the time were speculating. In the end it was just another bad story that was memory holed by fans like every bad story before it.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:27
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Blockhouse posted:Here we are in 2020. Peter and Mary Jane are a couple again. Almost every concept that was wiped out in OMD has made its way back to comics in some form. All the rage and fury over OMD and it didn't really save or condemn the franchise to doom like many people around the time were speculating. I mean they're doing a whole story addressing it right now, so it's not exactly memory holed.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:30
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Blockhouse posted:The funny thing about One More Day that you can see now more than a decade out from it is...it kind of didn't even matter, huh? It's almost like comics continuity thrives on the illusion of change vs actual change
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Oct 29, 2020 17:38
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I don't think anyone was complaining that OMD would sink Spider-Man. I think they were complaining that it was a bad and dumb story that was wiping out 20 years of character growth and happening for literally no reason. I know I sure was.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:49
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Aunt May needs to die. Let me write one Spider-Man issue. Aunt May will die peacefully and wish Peter a beautiful life.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:59
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VanSandman posted:Aunt May needs to die. Let me write one Spider-Man issue. Aunt May will die peacefully and wish Peter a beautiful life. As much as I agree with that...they did that. And she still came back.
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Oct 29, 2020 18:01
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VanSandman posted:Aunt May needs to die. Let me write one Spider-Man issue. Aunt May will die peacefully and wish Peter a beautiful life. "I have to go now. Galactus needs me." *turns silver, is awkwardly pulled off the page*
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Oct 29, 2020 18:08
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:"I have to go now. Galactus needs me." *turns silver, is awkwardly pulled off the page* that's silly. as a herald, may turned gold.
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Oct 29, 2020 18:10
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If they made the Golden Oldie canon and had her go on cosmic adventures as a way to get her out of Peter's life for like ten years, I'd be very into it.
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Oct 29, 2020 20:23
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Vince MechMahon posted:If they made the Golden Oldie canon and had her go on cosmic adventures as a way to get her out of Peter's life for like ten years, I'd be very into it. just think of all the brand new life-threatening space illnesses she could catch
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Oct 29, 2020 22:10
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She'd still be killed by a man with a gun. It wouldn't even be a space-gun.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:21
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VanSandman posted:Aunt May needs to die. Let me write one Spider-Man issue. Aunt May will die peacefully and wish Peter a beautiful life. The PS4 game did that and it legit made me cry so I support this.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:22
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:just think of all the brand new life-threatening space illnesses she could catch She will go on a multitude of exciting space adventures and then return to earth, where she will learn Spider-Man's true identity and immediately die of a heart attack.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:26
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