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And Guilliman couldn't force everyone to cooperate. The book talking about that was kind of interesting, and had Guilliman admit that if he tried to get everyone to go along with one central plan the ensuing civil wars would tear the Imperium apart. They can't even agree on what year it is: the present of the setting *might* be the dawn of the 42nd millenium. Or they might still be in the 39th. Or the 44th.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:41
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Oh hey did someone bring up Lamenters no oh well who cares TTS dropped this vid and yeah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr1Ip9aaHIA Cythereal posted:And Guilliman couldn't force everyone to cooperate. The book talking about that was kind of interesting, and had Guilliman admit that if he tried to get everyone to go along with one central plan the ensuing civil wars would tear the Imperium apart. They can't even agree on what year it is: the present of the setting *might* be the dawn of the 42nd millenium. Or they might still be in the 39th. Or the 44th. And there are already people in power calling bullshit on Guilliman and trying to assassinate him because he threatens their existing power. The best Guilliman can do is try to add structure to the chaos, but he can't pull rank like the Imperium needs, at this stage there's doubt Big E could do that.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:44
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Sanguinius was the only one who could do it By being very very pretty Everyone agreed that To Be Honest, he should have been warmaster.
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Oct 29, 2020 15:56
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ThingOne posted:I think this is something a lot of people forget when they talk about the Inquisition. At the end of the day they need to work with the other branches of the Imperium to get their job done and that means maintaining a good relationship with them because no amount of threatening and waving your Rosette around is going to get the Administratum to work any faster once you've pissed them off.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:11
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AtomikKrab posted:Sanguinius was the only one who could do it By being very very pretty Horus was Warmaster because he was both a hungry conqueror and the master of the hearts of men. Every primarch had a Thing, and his was to radiate charisma in a way that no one else did.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:20
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Dear God I loved playing this game way back when. I loving loved the guard. Morale problem? Shoot someone with your commissar. WHAT MORALE PROBLEM. Then roll in with tanks and enjoy. I remember playing this game against a friend once, and we did space marines against the Guard, and he pushed really far into my base and poo poo was looking dire, until the baneblade I was building popped, wrecked his assault force and tied up his entire base long enough for the guard to rally and force them off world. Ahh memories. And I am getting a major lore education from this thread. Jesus Christ I missed a ton. Last I saw the Golden Throne was breaking down and the mechanicus basically went "well we can't fix this". Is that still a thing?
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Oct 29, 2020 16:31
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AtomikKrab posted:Admittedly the Inquisitor can probably go walk over to the nearest Shrine/Monastery/Church that has Sisters of Battle Present and tell them he needs them to come deal with some Heresy. There isn't enough promethium in the galaxy to burn through the mountain of paperwork and red tape they'll bury your rear end under and that isn't even getting into their ability to gently caress with you and your forces' requisitions in ways you'll never, ever be able to untangle.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:36
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Morand posted:Ahh memories. And I am getting a major lore education from this thread. Jesus Christ I missed a ton. Last I saw the Golden Throne was breaking down and the mechanicus basically went "well we can't fix this". Is that still a thing? Yeah, that's been a thing since forever. It's getting worse.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:37
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wiegieman posted:Horus was Warmaster because he was both a hungry conqueror and the master of the hearts of men. Every primarch had a Thing, and his was to radiate charisma in a way that no one else did. I recall that really it was up in the air between Horus and the Lion. Coolguye posted:Yeah, that's been a thing since forever. It's getting worse. To the point I believe the high lords tried bringing in the Dark Eldar to fix it, and one of them just stared in awe at the self-made torture device that was the Golden Throne like. "We literally could not make a device that tortures a person more than this, the pure agony and suffering endured by the Emperor of Mankind is so exquisite I can probably die happy, knowing that I will never again witness such perfect pain."
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Oct 29, 2020 17:10
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wiegieman posted:Horus was Warmaster because he was both a hungry conqueror and the master of the hearts of men. Every primarch had a Thing, and his was to radiate charisma in a way that no one else did. I always read it as more that the Emperor saw the most of himself in Horus then anything else. On paper he made the most sense but quite frankly I would have gone something like a council to help keep the various brothers close instead of all but encouraging the slow but steady drifting apart that helped play into the hands of Chaos.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:16
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ThingOne posted:There isn't enough promethium in the galaxy to burn through the mountain of paperwork and red tape they'll bury your rear end under and that isn't even getting into their ability to gently caress with you and your forces' requisitions in ways you'll never, ever be able to untangle. And considering how much paperwork and red tape is involved when dealing with the Administratum on a good day, that's saying something. There are entire planets with tens if not hundreds of billions of scribes on each processing paperwork and tallying tithes and figuring out how many lasguns from Forge World 153 can be sent to that one particular Imperial Guard regiment on Trench Warfare Shithole World 76,023 (answer: not nearly enough, and also said planet fell to the Tyrannids a century ago).
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Oct 29, 2020 17:19
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Chris Wraight's Carrion Throne deals with that little topic, with some very interactions. Not to mention the long lasting consequences. Turns out talking to a haemonculus is not good for you mental health. AtomikKrab posted:Sanguinius was the only one who could do it By being very very pretty Not to mention once wrecking a Titan so hard by himself that the other two that were with the first one decided to turn around and walk away.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:23
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Horus was picked in part because his Thing was to be good at everything. He wasn't the strategist Guilliman was, or the tactician The Lion was, or as beloved as Sanguinius, but he was a close second to them all. Really, though, just about any of the Loyalist Primarchs could have done the job to some degree or another.
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Oct 29, 2020 18:38
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Cradok posted:Horus was picked in part because his Thing was to be good at everything. He wasn't the strategist Guilliman was, or the tactician The Lion was, or as beloved as Sanguinius, but he was a close second to them all. Really, though, just about any of the Loyalist Primarchs could have done the job to some degree or another. I stopped reading the Horus Heresy books a while back when I realized that series just wasn't going to end, but IIRC the main other considerations for Warmaster were: 1. Guilliman. Rejected because he already had a mini-empire of his own to run. 2. Sanguinius. Rejected because he was too... different, too obviously not-exactly-human. 3. Rogal Dorn. Rejected for being a cold, overly strict jerk who didn't get along well with people. 4. The Lion. Rejected for being an aloof jerk who didn't get along well with anyone and was a horrible judge of character. Horus, if nothing else, was a charismatic guy who made a sincere effort to get along with everyone he met (if only for his own advantage).
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Oct 29, 2020 18:42
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I think they actually did end the Horus Heresy books. Now we're into the Siege of Terra series
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Oct 29, 2020 19:04
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Even if the series itself isn't technically over yet.
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Oct 29, 2020 19:08
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The most logical explanation to me is that Horus was picked because he was liked by everyone and if you're going to be the boss of a bunch of prideful demigods who all have various issues up to and including outright mental disorders then the only unobjectionable choice is not only the best one, but probably the only possible one.
Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 22:28
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Frankly considering some of the poor parenting decisions Big E made regarding the primarchs, choosing Horus was a pretty good call all things considered. Except the whole, y'know, heresy thing.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:39
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Frankly considering some of the poor parenting decisions Big E made regarding the primarchs, choosing Horus was a pretty good call all things considered. I mean really the heresy was Lorgar's fault.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:40
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Onmi posted:I mean really the heresy was Lorgar's fault. If the Emperor had taken the time to talk with Lorgar what was going on instead of being a spiteful rear end in a top hat who deliberately set up the two sons who cared about what the Imperium looked like after the great crusade then that wouldn't have been an issue.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:43
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Onmi posted:I mean really the heresy was Lorgar's fault. I mean really the heresy was Erebus' fault. And definitely Lorgar's as well.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:52
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Onmi posted:I mean really the heresy was Lorgar's fault. I'm reading this in the TTS Magnus voice and its pretty solid Warmaster Vulkan: gently caress the crusade, we're all becoming farmers
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Oct 29, 2020 23:42
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Cerebral Bore posted:The most logical explanation to me is that Horus was picked because he was liked by everyone and if you're going to be the boss of a bunch of prideful demigods who all have various issues up to and including outright mental disorders then the only unobjectionable choice is not only the best one, but probably the only possible one. I think Horus was tolerated by everyone, Sanguinus is the one everyone actually liked. It really is as simple as Horus is the one the Emperor likes best, his favoured son, so he’s the one the Emperor chooses regardless of actual capability. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 01:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think Horus was tolerated by everyone, Sanguinus is the one everyone actually liked. Correct, the Primarchs were "ok" with Horus. They would have been very happy with Sanguinius Ok Sanguinius would not have been happy, but everyone else. I think in the books even Horus goes "he should have picked Sanguinius" When Gill-man Lion-o and Vulk-bro were arguing over who should lead the seperated Imperium during the heresy and when communication with terra was cut off. They instantly stopped fighting and plopped Sanguinius down as Regent when his fleet showed up.
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Oct 30, 2020 03:04
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:I'm reading this in the TTS Magnus voice and its pretty solid The correct choice The Salamanders rule
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Oct 30, 2020 05:31
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Hunt11 posted:I always read it as more that the Emperor saw the most of himself in Horus then anything else. On paper he made the most sense but quite frankly I would have gone something like a council to help keep the various brothers close instead of all but encouraging the slow but steady drifting apart that helped play into the hands of Chaos. The problem with such a council is that it wasn't what the Emperor needed. He made Horus Warmaster because he needed someone who could tell the other Primarchs what to do while the Emperor was on Terra. Horus's job was to finish the Great Crusade and conquer the galaxy whilst the Emperor finished his science projects, not rule the Imperium long term. A council would have dragged things out and might have been even worse at creating dissension between the Primarchs while they politicked amongst each other.
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Oct 30, 2020 06:44
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Speaking of, Roboky, are you going to talk about the aforementioned 'science project'?
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Oct 30, 2020 06:50
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Oh hey, missed this when it came out, finally caught up with things. Thoughts on some of the previous stuff - I never actually knew commanders would respawn until one of the future missions where the Avatar of Khaine managed to kill him in gory fashion. I was freaking out when I saw ol' Gabe get tossed up and go sliding down the Avatar's sword then I suddenly hear "I command in the name of the Emperor" and go "oh". As for minefields, they didn't have a lot of practical use for me besides occasionally messing with stealth troops that lack detection capacity themselves (so you know they're there when you hear the boom) but I had a load of fun dropping them versus Eldar because I pretty much am with Coolguye on how much I dislike them and seeing them gracefully race onto a minefield and get blown around is very soothing to watch, especially if I get enough mines up that they're just bouncing between fields. Oh, so you like flipping around Mr. Harlequin? LET ME HELP YOU WITH THAT!  Because yeah, seriously, Eldar are the stuck up jackasses of the 40K universe. Even not counting the Dark Eldar, who quite probably have the best claim for most evil faction in the setting, the Craftworlders are still arrogant jerks. You brought up the Maiden Worlds and how Eldar like to attack people on them, but it's important to note there are generally no signs or other indications these worlds are "owned", and in fact they were created long before the whole Fall/Chaos God birthday affair so they've sat unused for a LONG time generally. And yet the closest the Eldar come to "warning people off" is things like popping up on one that's been settled for centuries and telling the humans there they have 24 hours to evacuate (a planet with several multi-million resident hive cities) then proceeding to genocide everybody in the name of claiming a world they've never actually used and never probably WILL use considering the whole dying race/live on Craftworlds thing. Hence why our Biel-tan buddies here who love to do that I'd cheerfully change their flag symbol in this game to a giant dick for accuracy if I had any artistic skills. Then of course there's the fact that most of their "rebellious teenagers" who leave the Craftworlds join the Corsairs, who launch pirate attacks on everybody. Not because they actually need any of the stuff they raid, just simply because it's fun to slaughter non-Eldar for sport. Add in their psychic leaders using their future knowledge and a lot of manipulation to throw others into death to save Eldar skins (Armageddon, a world that got basically one of the worst orc attacks of all time, received the honor because a Farseer directed the orcs there to protect a relatively small Craftworld (though given the situation may have created one of the deadliest warbosses of all time that was probably a STUPID maneuver in the long run)), and I sometimes wonder if dealing with the Eldar is what taught the Imperium to become total xenophobes.
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Oct 30, 2020 07:50
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MadDogMike posted:Oh hey, missed this when it came out, finally caught up with things. Thoughts on some of the previous stuff - I never actually knew commanders would respawn until one of the future missions where the Avatar of Khaine managed to kill him in gory fashion. I was freaking out when I saw ol' Gabe get tossed up and go sliding down the Avatar's sword then I suddenly hear "I command in the name of the Emperor" and go "oh". As for minefields, they didn't have a lot of practical use for me besides occasionally messing with stealth troops that lack detection capacity themselves (so you know they're there when you hear the boom) but I had a load of fun dropping them versus Eldar because I pretty much am with Coolguye on how much I dislike them and seeing them gracefully race onto a minefield and get blown around is very soothing to watch, especially if I get enough mines up that they're just bouncing between fields. Oh, so you like flipping around Mr. Harlequin? LET ME HELP YOU WITH THAT! The Imperium were kinda dicks to Xenos before the Eldar broke space.
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Oct 30, 2020 08:40
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think Horus was tolerated by everyone, Sanguinus is the one everyone actually liked. AtomikKrab posted:Correct, the Primarchs were "ok" with Horus. They would have been very happy with Sanguinius Ok Sanguinius would not have been happy, but everyone else. I think in the books even Horus goes "he should have picked Sanguinius" The problem with Sanguinius was that his Legion had this whole barely repressed space vampire blood cult thing going on, which would have caused problems in the long run. So I don't think he would even have taken the position unless forced to.
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Oct 30, 2020 08:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:The problem with Sanguinius was that his Legion had this whole barely repressed space vampire blood cult thing going on, which would have caused problems in the long run. So I don't think he would even have taken the position unless forced to. I thought that came later from issues created during the heresy. I know the Black Rage does at least. Veloxyll posted:The Imperium were kinda dicks to Xenos before the Eldar broke space. To be fair, we've got historical records of a lot of first encounters between aliens and humanity from that time period, and I think in nearly 80% of cases it turns out those aliens probably want to eat humans, or do eat humans, or something far worse.
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Oct 30, 2020 09:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:I thought that came later from issues created during the heresy. I know the Black Rage does at least. IIRC (like many other legions, actually) the Blood Angels had these issues from the start but they got better (or rather were successfully repressed) when they were reunited with Sanguinius, only to get a whole lot worse when he died. E: Speaking of the blood cult thing here, the black rage was a later development as you say. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 09:08
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Lord_Magmar posted:I thought that came later from issues created during the heresy. I know the Black Rage does at least. Again, there's also evidence from lost technology on Mars that humans once lived and worked side-by-side with a lot of other species.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:38
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Lord_Magmar posted:I thought that came later from issues created during the heresy. I know the Black Rage does at least. In the old lore, yes, although it has been revealed that it was a secret flaw in the Blood Angels genetic makeup all along and Sanguinius knew it, the Horus Heresy book 'Fear to tread' talks about it, it's also a pretty awful read.
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Oct 30, 2020 15:11
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Hunt11 posted:If the Emperor had taken the time to talk with Lorgar what was going on instead of being a spiteful rear end in a top hat who deliberately set up the two sons who cared about what the Imperium looked like after the great crusade then that wouldn't have been an issue. The current lore is that the Emperor regarded the primarchs as being human, with their own personalities and desires and wills, as an unfortunate accident. They were weapons created to do as they were told, nothing more, and that is exactly how the Emperor treated them. The last few Horus Heresy books I read were kinda interesting in that regard, because Lorgar and Perturabo flat out said that they never wanted to be soldiers and resented the Emperor forcing them to be such. Lorgar wanted to be a philosopher and scholar. Perturabo wanted to be an artist and architect. On the loyalist side, Jaghatai Khan and Corax both considered the Emperor nothing more than a petty tyrant no better than any of the various threats they'd put down.
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Oct 30, 2020 15:16
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Again, poor parenting decisions from Big E bite everyone in the rear end.
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Oct 30, 2020 16:44
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Of course, whole Dark age of Technology and Men of Iron are probably Eldars doing bad things to human AIs...
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Oct 30, 2020 17:16
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NHO posted:Of course, whole Dark age of Technology and Men of Iron are probably Eldars doing bad things to human AIs... MoI are actually implied to be either Chaos corruption or a good-old fashioned slave rebellion. The Tanith First and Only destroyed a Chaos-corrupted STC that produced Men of Iron, and the stuff surrounding the Blackstone Fortress board game reveal that not only did some MoI survive, but at least one of them views Castellan robots (literal robots who work on punch cards) as "slaves" to humanity.
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Oct 30, 2020 18:24
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Nah I'm good for blaming the Eldar for that too. No I don't have any evidence. No I don't care.
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Oct 30, 2020 18:27
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Nah I'm good for blaming the Eldar for that too. No I don't have any evidence. No I don't care. Nah. The Eldar would like the idea that they are behind everything. Don't encourage them
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Oct 30, 2020 21:53
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