Tyranny: We ARE the baddies!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Tyranny: We ARE the baddies!

drkeiscool: Aug 1, 2014; Soiled Meat

EclecticTastes posted:

It obvious that other characters we've seen in the setting understand those concepts, so, wherever they learned it, I guess (keep in mind, Kyros' regime is only 430 years old, and most of the world wasn't conquered until well into that period). Like, I think we can agree that such a person would be rare in this setting, but completely removing the option in the writing is flawed.

your character's backstory specifically relates to how you grew up immersed in the empire and its culture and morals in some way. saying that removing the option to not do so is flawed is illogical, as it removes a lot of the themes that obsidian is trying to convey, and also would make no sense with the prologue and first act of the game

hell, i'll go so far as to say the rebel path is out of place in this game, because it doesn't logically follow the established narrative of the game up to that point

# ? Oct 31, 2020 04:29

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 15:40

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

Yeah, but the Fatebinder isn't a blank slate. Most of the backgrounds are about how you dicked over people to your own benefit in a way Tunon thought was cool, and you led a hefty chunk of the initial conquest. There's certainly people with less imperial sensibilities in the world, but they are not the ones who rise to be in Tunon's inner circle.

You can straight up tell Tunon that you kicked both armies out of the Spire because they're poo poo, and he won't be pleased, but he lets you keep it. That's a tacit acknowledgment that you holding it means it still belongs to Kyros.

E: And Cleopatra Jones made a mad dash into the oldwalls for no reason other than there was a spire she could claim for herself. I don't see how you can spin that as anything other than a naked power grab.

Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 31, 2020

# ? Oct 31, 2020 04:30

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

You can straight up tell Tunon that you kicked both armies out of the Spire because they're poo poo, and he won't be pleased, but he lets you keep it. That's a tacit acknowledgment that you holding it means it still belongs to Kyros.

My position is that I (i.e. the Fatebinder in my playthrough) was claiming Ascension Hall for the Court, so, yeah, this all tracks just fine. I tend to play it in my head as the Fatebinder gradually seeing that Kyros' whole thing is poo poo and growing to be a less lovely person, and the game's writing denies that as a true option, at least in certain places (it's actually a little inconsistent about it).

EclecticTastes fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Oct 31, 2020

# ? Oct 31, 2020 05:13

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Honestly, it doesn't matter what your motivation is for taking the tower. The narration does not call it a senseless power grab (though remember, our narrator is Eb, a character with very strong opinions), the fact is the Kyrosian regime - who are, again, most of the characters you interact with - will see any power grab as lust for personal power because that's what motivates every character in this tyranny save Tunon. The Scarlet Chorus is an organization literally based around killing each other for power, the Disfavored are nominally an arm of the state but act as a vehicle to get Graven Ashe in power so he can favor their ethnic group, the rebels are a group of nobles trying to restore their own power and that of their country, Apex (which as I recall was fairly militaristic and warred against the other nations of the Tiers often). It quite frankly doesn't matter what your motive is - you can tell Calio you think both the Archons are inept idiots, and she jumps directly to power grab because that is the language the Kyrosians understand. If you seize power to build a big hospital, the Kyrosians assume the big hospital is a front to seize power. Why wouldn't they? The ideals of Kyros' Peace and the laws of sharing are a big lie designed to cement the power of Kyros. We've seen what happens to people who fight for their ideals like the Sages - they get crushed with overwhelming force.

EclecticTastes posted:

This is one area in which a certain other CRPG that GEK has played eats Tyranny's lunch, by making every reasonable solution to a quest possible, including a lot of weird edge cases that most players are unlikely to see, and letting the player define their motives freely.

We're not going back to that game. Other games aside, there really aren't as many solutions because the game is about how power constrains as well as liberates. You saw what happened when we tried to force Ashe and Nerat to work together, or how we can only show mercy to the rebels when our allies aren't around. If we were some kind of heroic warlord who landed a private army on the shores of the Tiers and had the freedom to do what we wanted, maybe we could be more merciful, but the entire first act is about how the Fatebinder has just enough power to release how powerless they truly are. The lack of options is the point. We also clearly have some moral flexibility, because you have to do terrible things to get through conquest. Looking back at just what we did, we
-sacrificed the Scarlet Chorus to keep the elites alive
-caused a bunch of riots that set a city on fire for no other reason than a tyrant wanted to conquer it
-gave the School of Tides to Nerat to be tortured to death
-helped Nerat violate a truce to torture the mages of the School of Wild Wrath to death
-nuked a fortress full of noncombatants with no warning

What about this indicates that our Fatebinder has modern morality? At best they're the guy at the Nuremberg trial insisting they were just following orders. The Fatebinder is not seizing power at the head of a righteous rebellion supported by the people, Act 2 of the game is all about building legitimacy because as a Fatebinder, we don't have any. Even on the rebel path Tunon will still tell you he sees you as loyal to Kyros - hell, he approves of manipulating the rebels to stand against the Archons! A truly moral person would not be working for Kyros' regime.

EclecticTastes posted:

Take Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance. In most cases, intolerance would be described as "evil", because it is used by evil people to evil ends. However, as the paradox describes, one must be intolerant of intolerance itself, in order to preserve tolerance. I think we can (or should) all agree that bigots should not be welcome in civilized discourse, and that denying them a platform is good (or at least not evil). Thus, intolerance can be used toward good ends, by aiming it at every other strain of intolerance.

The obvious counterargument is who defines intolerance? This same principle can be applied by Christian zealots to ban gay marriage on the grounds of "religious freedom" or to mumble about the curse of Ham while putting up whites only signs. Most of the modern alt-right is coopting this by whining about how oppressed white people are by affirmative action, and you can see examples of proslavery newspapers, say, banning Frederick Douglass. This also lends the banned subject an aura of fear it in no way deserves, as authoritarian personality types go "wow, no one takes me seriously but everyone thinks Nazis are too scary to talk about, I think I'll be a Nazi!"

The second part of this is that most of this intolerant crap very rarely survives open debate. Hitler didn't defeat all his political opponents because Mein Kampf was so convincing that everyone who read it was turned into a Nazi, he won because he raised a private army of disaffected people, the German courts refused to sentence him, and Franz von Papen brought him into the government like a dumbass trying to use him to get at his private army to crush the communists. The Weimar Republic crew like Hindenberg wanted to restore the monarchy, not create a Nazi state. Take another example, the American eugenics movement, where the people doing the studies putting ball bearings in people's skulls to see whose brain was bigger admitted to cheating so they could claim white people were smarter. These are not intellectually robust movements, these are movements dedicated to telling ignorant people what they want to hear, and I fear far too much modern discourse is to see the ideas themselves as a threat when the ideas don't matter - it's just a way of unifying a bunch of power hungry assholes. The reaction to a bunch of Nazis showing up ranting about a white ethnostate should not be "OMG NAZIS QUICK SOMEONE SHUT THEM UP" but "ha ha! Look at these stupid fucks! They judge people's value by skin color! Look, here are the many examples of why they are wrong!" - but if they show up with weapons, by all means shoot the Nazis in the head. And, of course, on any private platform, the platform owners have the right to say "I don't want to hear this poo poo" and boot them off - but letting them get dogpiled and owned by angry users is a perfectly valid way of dealing with them too. People cite the Nazis as the paradox of tolerance, but the government let Hitler get away with a slap on the wrist after he launched a coup. They literally handed him the chancellor position! They even unbanned the SA and SS! That's not a story of a society destroyed by tolerance, it's the story of a bunch of idiots trying to use a power-hungry maniac with a penchant for violence and then being surprised they couldn't control the guy with two private armies. They literally banned Hitler from giving speeches in Bavaria and it didn't do poo poo. It even gave Hitler the precedent of banning speech to ban all his enemies after the Reichstag fire. Hitler did not win because he convinced a bunch of people who were on the fence about Jews that Jews were bad, he convinced a bunch of people who hated Jews that they should do what they wanted to do and got the support of the government by promising them his violent army of fanatics.

The full quote is this, by the way.

Popper posted:

The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. � In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.�

It's not really clear cut. If you can debate the Nazis and pull a Darryl Davis you should do that, if the Nazis decide to pick up weapons you can start gunning them down. If the Nazis start winning popular support then some tough decisions must be made, but as much as people like to talk about how the ends justify the means you cannot impose virtue from the top down.

Darkness At Noon posted:

The blue had begun to turn pink, dusk was falling; round the tower a flock of dark birds was circling with slow, deliberate wing beats. No, the equation did not work out. It was obviously not enough to direct man�s eyes towards a goal and put a knife in his hand; it was unsuitable for him to experiment with a knife. Perhaps later, one day. For the moment he was still too young and awkward. How he had raged in the great field of experiment, the Fatherland of the Revolution, the Bastion of Freedom! Gletkin justified everything that happened with the principle that the bastion must be preserved. But what did it look like inside? No, one cannot build Paradise with concrete. The bastion would be preserved, but it no longer had a message, nor an example to give the world. No 1�s r�gime had besmirched the ideal of the Social state even as some Mediaeval Popes had besmirched the ideal of a Christian Empire. The flag of the Revolution was at half-mast.

Rubashov wandered through his cell. It was quiet and nearly dark. It could not be long before they came to fetch him. There was an error somewhere in the equation�no, in the whole mathematical system of thought. He had had an inkling of it for a long time already, since the story of Richard and the Piet�, but had never dared to admit it to himself fully. Perhaps the Revolution had come too early, an abortion with monstrous, deformed limbs. Perhaps the whole thing had been a bad mistake in timing. The Roman civilization, too, had seemed to be doomed as early as the first century B.C.; had seemed as rotten to the marrow as our own; then, too, the best had believed that the time was ripe for great change; and yet the old worn-out world had held out for another five hundred years. History had a slow pulse; man counted in years, history in generations. Perhaps it was still only the second day of creation. How he would have liked to live and build up the theory of the relative maturity of the masses! ...

It was quiet in the cell. Rubashov heard only the creaking of his steps on the tiles. Six and a half steps to the door, whence they must come to fetch him, six and a half steps to the window, behind which night was falling. Soon it would be over. But when he asked himself, For what actually are you dying? he found no answer.

It was a mistake in the system; perhaps it lay in the precept which until now he had held to be uncontestable, in whose name he had sacrificed others and was himself being sacrificed: in the precept, that the end justifies the means. It was this sentence which had killed the great fraternity of the Revolution and made them all run amuck. What had he once written in his diary? �We have thrown overboard all conventions, our sole guiding principle is that of consequent logic; we are sailing without ethical ballast.�

Perhaps the heart of the evil lay there. Perhaps it did not suit mankind to sail without ballast. And perhaps reason alone was a defective compass, which led one on such a winding, twisted course that the goal finally disappeared in the mist.

Perhaps now would come the time of great darkness.

Perhaps later, much later, the new movement would arise�with new flags, a new spirit knowing of both: of economic fatality and the �oceanic sense�. Perhaps the members of the new party will wear monks� cowls, and preach that only purity of means can justify the ends. Perhaps they will teach that the tenet is wrong which says that a man is the quotient of one million divided by one million, and will introduce a new kind of arithmetic based on multiplication: on the joining of a million individuals to form a new entity which, no longer an amorphous mass, will develop a consciousness and an individuality of its own, with an �oceanic feeling� increased a millionfold, in unlimited yet self-contained space.

You CANNOT create a good society with the ends justifying the means. We can take Lord of the Rings too - why is the Ring bad? Because the Ring is authoritarian power. The invisibility is a metaphor for privilege and how it unconstrains morality (re: Plato and the Ring of Gyges) and to truly master the ring you must train your will to dominate others. The Ring is not power freely given by the social contract, the Ring is the power to enslave and destroy those who oppose you. It is the power to have violent men drag your enemies away at midnight in front of their screaming children and execute them without trial. It is the power to lash slaves until they die in the mines so that you may have one more golden coin. It is the power to take virtuous men and women and traumatize them until they become monsters. That power stands for nothing except its own perpetuation. It cannot be used for good. It is the power of absolute evil and must be opposed at every opportunity.

Bringing this back to the game, why is Cleopatra's power bad? No one under us wanted us to have it.
Cleopatra's power is the power of a tyrant ruling from above. It's not like the men of Lake-town acclaiming Bard the Bowman king because he risked his life to protect them and slew the dragon, this is just us building on our authority imposed by a tyrant no one wanted. At best we have six party members who kind of like us, but there is never a scene where we visit a peasant and the peasant is happy to see us and grateful for our leadership. Can you try to mitigate the tyranny somewhat? Yes - but as long as you swear allegiance to the tyrant or rely on the tyrant's oppressive tools you will never be free.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 06:06

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

12Apr1961 posted:

Hi, TheGreatEvilKing!

Just wanted to pop in, and say thanks for running this! I've been following the LP, and your thoughts on the game motivated me to re-install it and do my own playthrough, which I've already finished - it's surprising how quick the game goes once you are familiar with the mechanics.

Glad to see you here, and thank you for reading!

# ? Oct 31, 2020 06:15

GrayDorian: Dec 21, 2006; who is he

I am all about this analysis, including the real world analogies and literary examples. Gives the game far more context and meaning than when I rushed through most of it

# ? Oct 31, 2020 06:47

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Other games aside, there really aren't as many solutions because the game is about how power constrains as well as liberates.

The big problem with Tyranny's writing constraining the player comes up most prominently in one specific section of the game where your literal only option is not only to murder literally everyone (which would be fine, since they're all being kind of unreasonable anyway), but to then force the player to act like a gleeful murderhobo the whole time when, for me, it was nothing personal. Just because the Fatebinder has flexible morality doesn't mean he's having a great time being evil. I would have preferred getting to play out actually realizing the error of one's way and changing for the better.

As to whether the ends justifies the means, I'll pose your own question back to you. Who decides that a given mean is "evil"? What are the criteria? A knife can be used to hurt someone just as easily as it can be used to prepare food, lies can spare people's feelings as easily as they can manipulate their actions, stealing can feed a starving family as easily as it can enrich the greedy. But, just like you wouldn't try to slice pizza with a bandsaw, or use a pizza cutter to cut wood, you need to carefully choose your means to fit your ends, and if the ends don't justify the means, what that indicates is that you just chose poorly. And, yes, much like there are some objects in the world that aren't much good for anything, there are plenty of means that can basically never be justified. But, as I said up above, I don't consider them "evil" because that's not a thing non-sentient concepts can be. A person can be evil, or good, or bad, or whatever. A thing cannot, it has no moral dimension, it simply is.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 07:19

drkeiscool: Aug 1, 2014; Soiled Meat

EclecticTastes posted:

As to whether the ends justifies the means, I'll pose your own question back to you. Who decides that a given mean is "evil"? What are the criteria? A knife can be used to hurt someone just as easily as it can be used to prepare food, lies can spare people's feelings as easily as they can manipulate their actions, stealing can feed a starving family as easily as it can enrich the greedy.

That you are using such contrasts to demonstrate the question shows you have some idea of either what is and isn't evil, or of what society considers to be good and evil, and so asking "who decides what is evil" feels like avoiding the real question. You know what is evil; the real question is "am I willing to do evil in the pursuit of a greater good"?

quote:

But, just like you wouldn't try to slice pizza with a bandsaw, or use a pizza cutter to cut wood, you need to carefully choose your means to fit your ends, and if the ends don't justify the means, what that indicates is that you just chose poorly. And, yes, much like there are some objects in the world that aren't much good for anything, there are plenty of means that can basically never be justified. But, as I said up above, I don't consider them "evil" because that's not a thing non-sentient concepts can be. A person can be evil, or good, or bad, or whatever. A thing cannot, it has no moral dimension, it simply is.

Cutting a pizza with a bandsaw is not on the same moral level as deciding whether to censor or kill people because they might be a threat to the safety of society, unless you believe a pizza has a soul. And whether an object is good or evil is not what was being discussed, but how to react to men who seek power and the ability to abuse that power for their own gain. Much like a pizza cutter, an ideology itself isn't evil, but an ideology based in hatred and used to obtain power is evil for the harm it inflicts on others through (to use the examples you yourself used) physical harm, manipulation, and theft, among other things.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 08:10

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

drkeiscool posted:

That you are using such contrasts to demonstrate the question shows you have some idea of either what is and isn't evil, or of what society considers to be good and evil, and so asking "who decides what is evil" feels like avoiding the real question. You know what is evil; the real question is "am I willing to do evil in the pursuit of a greater good"?

Except you're missing that the good and evil are in the results. Means, on their own, are like soundwaves. A soundwave isn't a sound until someone hears it, and a means isn't a means until it has an effect on something or someone.

If you shoot an innocent person, that's bad. But if you shoot someone who was about to murder someone else, that's good. The shooting, therefore, has no predefined morality, but is rather defined by who you shoot and why. You can apply this reasoning to any object, action, or strategy. If you're using/doing it to harm an innocent, that's bad. If you're using/doing it to protect an innocent, that's good. But then you get into situations where the stuff you're using is so big and unwieldy that suddenly the outcome is more like "You did X to protect innocent people, but also some other innocent people got hurt by it". Which brings me into my next point, below.

drkeiscool posted:

Cutting a pizza with a bandsaw is not on the same moral level as deciding whether to censor or kill people because they might be a threat to the safety of society, unless you believe a pizza has a soul. And whether an object is good or evil is not what was being discussed, but how to react to men who seek power and the ability to abuse that power for their own gain. Much like a pizza cutter, an ideology itself isn't evil, but an ideology based in hatred and used to obtain power is evil for the harm it inflicts on others through (to use the examples you yourself used) physical harm, manipulation, and theft, among other things.

The point I was making is that the ends and means are all about picking the right tool for the job. A bandsaw is not good at cutting pizza, but it is good at cutting wood, and vice-versa. Censoring a person speaking up about their benign personal philosophy is bad, it's like using a bandsaw to cut a pizza. Censoring a Nazi trying to radicalize people is good, because merely letting the Nazi speak will result in a nonzero number of people being radicalized. You need look no further than Youtube and the neo-Nazi radicalization pipeline The Algorithm has created, because Youtube refuses to ban said Nazis. And you can ask "well then where does the censorship end?" and I'll say "when there are no more Nazis on the platform".

Also, an ideology isn't a means, an ideology is an end, representing the desires and goals of its creators. Thus, what you're judging here isn't the means a person is using, but the ends they're pursuing, which I agree with, as ends can be good or evil. When one pursues evil ends, no means is justified, obviously. When one pursues good ends, the amount of harm caused by the means must simply be proportional to (or, ideally, lesser than) the amount of good being done. Or, to clarify, the means you employ will almost always cause ends that you weren't actively seeking out (that is, they will have unintended effects), and those must be factored into your reasoning when you're trying to figure out if the ends justify the means.

EclecticTastes fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Oct 31, 2020

# ? Oct 31, 2020 09:05

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Cleopatra Jones and The Chat With Bleden Mark

Last time on Tyranny, we tried to help our good friend Barik escape his armor, only to learn that he was literally trapped wallowing in his own poo poo by his loyalty to Graven Ashe and Kyros.

Another missive from Myothis!

Fatebinder Myothis posted:

Greetings Cleopatra Jones,

You are correct, there are Spires all across Terratus. The exact distribution of these monuments fuels all sorts of debate and speculation, but two facts seem commonplace: most Spires are built near Oldwalls (your Mountain Spire is a notable exception) and nearly every culture that predated Kyros has some local myth to explain the builders of these Spires - I believe the Tiersmen cite the "Older Realms" as their local name for the Spire/Oldwalls architects... but nobody knows for sure.

And of course, where Kyros has brought proper civilization, the origin of the Spires simply isn't discussed in good company...

Here's what I think you need to know...

First, the Spires behave as arcane lodestone - there is a constant field of magical strength around a Spire. If you imagine a mystic sea resting atop our world, the Spires seem to spin and churn this magic - creating a spell cast with even modest effort will materialize with powerful results.

Second, and I'd say most tellingly, Kyros has laws against entering the Oldwalls, but there are no laws against the Spires. You could infer from this that means Kyros has no issue with the lay folks messing with the Spires but wishes to keep us safe from the Oldwalls. Or you could think like an Overlord and know that if you place a rule against something, you make it forbidden and desirable... now I find it telling that Kyros forbids the hallways that leads to the Spires but does not paint a target on the Spires themselves.

Last but not least... as a young Fatebinder, I once had to oversee the case of a man who had built a shrine to Kyros around the base of a Spire in the far south east. I could find no evidence of falsity or slander - his shrine was a most reverent and loving tribute as I've ever seen. At one point though, this man claimed he had evidence that 'Kyros was here back in negative fifty.' He had merely uttered those words and my senior Binder swung the axe then and there. Being the new girl at the Court, I said nothing, but I have long wondered why such a comment should require death instead of the traditional removal of the tongue.

-Fatebinder Myothis

Myothis is the game's peek into what's really going on - but remember, this is Tyranny. Myothis so far is honest with us, but you should take every character in the game with a grain of salt.

That said, Myothis lays it out clearly here. The Spires are the power that sets us far above the common man and lets us impose our will from above.

Let's reply and ask about Edicts, it's kind of refreshing to have some real answers.

Time to go back to our Spire! Astute readers will note that we forged the Plate at the other Spire, but we can teleport between the Spires pretty much instantaneously.

Fatebinder Myothis posted:

Salutations, Cleopatra Jones

It is difficult to separate fact from superstition when it comes to Edicts, as it seems only Kyros knows how it all works, the rest of us are left to live in fear and ponder it all.

Kyros Edicts are a sort of magic above and beyond even the Archons - I daresay the Edicts are STRONGER than Kyros as there's no evidence Kyros can willingly stop an Edict once set into motion... which is, in part, why Kyros' Edicts seem to have an 'until' or 'unless' clause in their wording.

I know the Edict, as powerful as it is, requires a human voice to complete the casting - thus the Overlord has people like you proclaim Edicts cast far from the Imperial Throne - the magic is Kyros' magic, but the human voice is the final carrier or trigger to complete the magic phenomenon.

And here's what's most fascinating - at least as far as you're concerned. There have been dozens of mortal agents who have been made to proclaim Edicts - two-thirds of them die within a decade, and many gave reports of lingering mystic scars from the ordeal.

And there have also been a handful to resolve or break an Edict - these 'until' and 'unless' clauses get fulfilled from time to time, and we see a similar pattern in history - those who resolve an Edict often live short lives, and many speak of arcane side effects of the shattered Edicts.

Here's where you're unique... to the best of my fact-finding, you are the first to proclaim and break the exact same Edict. Whatever mystical power is involved in the creation and destruction of such magics, you're the first to stand at the terminus of both.

Now that I know the Spires can be awoken, it makes sense that if anything can or would wake them from slumber, a shattered Edict seems the likely culprit.

Kyros has other Edicts in place throughout the Tiers. If you truly wish to learn more, perhaps you should take it upon yourself to shatter those Edicts. After all, if Kyros did not wish for the Edicts to be broken, why include a termination clause?

-Myothis

Now this is interesting. Remember when we discussed that pronouncing two edicts was basically a death sentence? We were not supposed to survive. The narrator at the beginning calls out that we're the youngest and least experienced of the Fatebinders - we can even confirm this with what Bleden Mark told us when he congratulated us in Tunon's Court.

Now, before we wander off too deep into the fantasy weeds, does Kyros sending her subjects to pronounce the Edicts have any meaning? Yes it does!

Macchiavelli, The Prince posted:

When the duke occupied the Romagna he found it under the rule of weak masters, who rather plundered their subjects than ruled them, and gave them more cause for disunion than for union, so that the country was full of robbery, quarrels, and every kind of violence; and so, wishing to bring back peace and obedience to authority, he considered it necessary to give it a good governor. Thereupon he promoted Messer Ramiro d'Orco,(*) a swift and cruel man, to whom he gave the fullest power. This man in a short time restored peace and unity with the greatest success. Afterwards the duke considered that it was not advisable to confer such excessive authority, for he had no doubt but that he would become odious, so he set up a court of judgment in the country, under a most excellent president, wherein all cities had their advocates. And because he knew that the past severity had caused some hatred against himself, so, to clear himself in the minds of the people, and gain them entirely to himself, he desired to show that, if any cruelty had been practised, it had not originated with him, but in the natural sternness of the minister. Under this pretence he took Ramiro, and one morning caused him to be executed and left on the piazza at Cesena with the block and a bloody knife at his side. The barbarity of this spectacle caused the people to be at once satisfied and dismayed.

Dune fans will recognize this as Baron Harkonnen's plans for his nephews. Remember when Nerat addressed us as the Firestarter, or how Kill-in-Shadow wanted to join us because our voice rained down fire upon our enemies? This is why. Kyros can use all of these Fatebinders as scapegoats. Notice how they all disappear? Ramiro became a threat to the duke, and the duke executed him while claiming it was for his subjects. In our case, executing these Edicts shows our power, which lets us use the Spire like Ramiro taking power from the Duke.

It's also more confirmation that the office of Fatebinders is a trap to ensnare the intelligent and capable. Left unattended, any one of these men and women could rise to challenge the empire as we're doing now. By using them as scapegoats for Kyros' edicts, Kyros can destroy the ones who are too smart to openly indulge their curiosity and get killed by Tunon.

Oh well, let's solicit Myothis' advice. She seems to know what she's talking about.

Finally! It only took us what, three updates?

Along the way to the Library we spot this cart. It's an ambush and I sneak off. I'll show this off in another route, but at the time of recording it was super late at night. Sorry goons!

Myothis gets back to us.

Fatebinder Myothis posted:

Dear Cleopatra Jones,

Based on what you've told me, it seems a stretch to believe these events are mere coincidence or circumstance. Kyros' Edict of Execution was a setup for SOMEONE to claim Ascension Hall... to think that Kyros did not know what would happen is a massive underestimation of the Overlord's long view.

You have been thrust into the arena of the mighty, your options are: retreat into obscurity, suicide, or rising to the occasion - I suggest the third option.

If I were you, I would use my connection to the Spires to see if they will all awaken to my presence. Every Tiersman sees the Spires in the horizon - if they know YOU are the master of the Spires, they will see YOU each time they look to the sunrise or sunset.

Foster a reputation for power, make others fear you. This is what I've seen Kyros and every living Archon do for as long as I've lived and there's reasons for this... there's the practical case that power and a reputation insulate you from threats, but there's the lesser-known element that I can't prove but I know in my heart to be true: the fear and love of others will strengthen your magic.

This last part I've inferred from my discussions with Bleden Mark. In the few times he has spoken of his gruesome work of slaying those who might rise to threaten the Overlord, he has hinted that it's easier to kill the 'rogue elements' before they become famed and fearsome. In my lifetime, I saw Graven Ashe change from an unknown militiaman to a fearsome general - and I can assure you, he did not have the power to shield his warriors in those days when he was without title or reputation. The Archons will never, ever discuss the origin of their power (because such knowledge might be used against them) but I have known ALL the Archons to be obsessed with the presentation of power...

Your connection to the Spires will all but guarantee the Archons will want to control and destroy you - it's a question of if, not when. Start thinking and acting like an Archon... as far as I'm concerned, you ARE an Archon - the Archon of the Spires. We are quick to place labels on powers we easily spot - and history is replete with Archons of Fire and Ice - it is foolish to think that there must be a word for a thing before an Archon can control it. Other way around - the Archons show us what is possible, and we must step to their dance.

-Myothis

Now this is kind of bleeding into fantasy bullshit, but the gist is clear. A reputation for power becomes power as people believe in it. This confirms how Ashe and Nerat became Archons - everyone believed Ashe was a great general so he got super regeneration powers. Note that this doesn't mean that Ashe could go head to head with Sun Tzu and win, merely that everyone believes he's a great general who cares for his men. We, the reader, can surmise that he promotes inept officers and relies on the superiority of equipment and unit cohesion rather than being good at tactics - but in Terratus, everyone believes he's an invincible general whose men never die and thus it becomes true.

Thus the subsequent revelation that we are an Archon should surprise no one. We've been slowly building a reputation as the woman who broke the Vendrien Guard, defied two entire legions, and executed the Iron Marshal with impunity. We wield the Staff of Hours, the legacy of the School of Ink and Quill, whose wisdom was so great kings and queens begged them to teach their children. The game has been telling us that our power is rising every time we equip an artifact or claim a Spire - for now, this is what it means. What can we do with this power? Keep following the LP to find out!

Let's ask about Archons, seeing as we might be one.

Once we get into the Citadel Barik wants to chat.

: Well now you know.

: That the Archon's protection - the very thing to which I owe my life! - keeps me imprisoned in this shell... He shakes his head violently, throwing sparks where his helm meets his cuirass.

: I'm sorry, Barik. I'll keep seeking an alternative way to set you free.

: I appreciate the sentiment, Fatebinder. But truly, pursuing this further is folly.

: No choice exists here. This armor remains my cage, as Kyros willed.

TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:

: NOOO! I can't believe Graven Ashe would screw me like this...after all I've done for the Disfavored...

: I'll keep trying to get you out.

: No. I must stay here. I can accept the will of Kyros, can you?

Alright! Now we can grab the scroll!

: Swap the Silent Archive with an artifact.

: I doubt you'll be able to recover anything you swap out... be sure that you're confident before you sacrifice an artifact.

: Place the Commander's Plate on the pedestal.

: You delicately remove the Silent Archive from the central pedestal, careful to replace it with another artifact in the span of a few seconds. The lines of energy flowing through the platform's center warble and distort disconcertingly for a moment, accompanied by faint tremors that unsettle the molten liquid below.

: After a few seconds of uncertainty, the spell's magic refocuses upon the newly placed object, its lines of energy once again resuming their stable flow upward and out to the rest of the Burning Library. The swap appears to have worked, and you have earned yourself the Silent Archive for your trouble.

The Silent Archive is a good artifact, and it also unlocks more weapons at the Forge when we get a Library. Those stat buffs will make our spells hit harder and CC longer. Ballin! Out we go!

: The air surrounding you begins to thin, and the smell of embers begins to diminish. The clouds of smoke slowly[sic], revealing the sky beyond them.

Cleopatra does her Super Saiyan powerup again, which is the game's visual shorthand for us gaining renown for using our political capital to save the library.

: The air around you begins to settle, and the particles of fire and ash that moments ago stung your eyes dissipate with a chilly gust.

: With the Silent Archive removed from the Burning Library, the Edict of Fire is extinguished, and its warmth feels pulled into your very chest - a sensation similar to the weightlessness when the Edict of Execution broke at Ascension Hall.

: So much knowledge turned to smoke and ash. Ending the Edict can't undo the damage, but perhaps now this place can be rebuilt. I hope future scholars can unearth whatever remaining books and scrolls are still buried within.

I'm sure this won't come in handy in the future.

TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:

: Hmm, time to swap artifacts.

: The writers wanted me to remind you no take-backsies!

: No worries, I've got the Commander's Plate, which buffs abilities I will never, ever use. Alright, spell stabilized, let's go outside. I HAVE THE POWER! EDICT DOOOOWN! WOOOOOO!

: The Sages are going to ask us for so many fetch quests...

: Well, hopefully future nerds can dig a Book Hole and rescue the books.

: Maybe if the Sages weren't book hording dicks they wouldn't have been obliterated by catastrophic magic!

: Hmm...the Edict is a part of me...how does that work?

Time to go back to Ashweald and hang out with Bleden Mark.

Dammit Nerat! What do you want?

He hates us. That's not a good sign.

The Voices of Nerat posted:

Dearest Fatebinder, Champion of Tunon's Gavel, Slayer of Choirmen!

We hope you recognize that we bear you no ill will. Who understands treachery if not the Archon of Secrets? We've always held the very highest esteem for other specialists in the arts duplicitious. Make no mistake, dear Fatebinder - after your little performance at Vendrien's Well, and with such a flair for theatrical illumination, you have ascended in our estimate! We trust you will understand that when we peel the flesh from your bones and squeeze the bile from your quivering innards, it's strictly out of artistic integrity and the courtesy owed a true professional.

Nothing personal at all.

But enough about our friendly rivalry. Do you enjoy the company of our little spy? Her dance never fails to inspire in us the most pleasant quivers. We have a gift for her, delivered through you due to the girl's questionable faculty with letters. We've learned from one of our birds that a mercenary in Haven has been absolutely gloating about slaying her sisters. His boasts even secured him work defending some Crossing merchant.

Show her the sigils on the reverse. She'll know what they mean.

-The Voices of Nerat, Archon of Secrets and Master of Cacophony.

[The opposite page contains several rough, ink-scratched symbols that look like nothing more than a child's pictographs of their favorite animals.]

This starts Verse's personal quest. We'll be nice and thank the Archon.

: You're not dead yet - good. Keep this up, as I've no interest in searching the shadows for your corpse.

Silly Bleden Mark! I have the reload button! I can't die!

: Not sure what you mean.

: You don't? Hmm... from my vantage point, the torrents of arcane fire didn't just vanish, they roiled and billowed like smoke. I could have sworn you were channeling that energy - perhaps the magic was seeking you.

: Whatever the case, you seem a little different - you smell of brimstone and crisped parchment. You are different than before you broke the Edict - I will leave it at that.

: Either way, you've filched the Silent Archive and can benefit from its influence. To be honest, even I don't know the full extent of what knowledge it can offer you, but I do know the Sages poured lifetimes of effort into it.

: I imagine the Archive was at its most useful when it was still a part of the library - before the Edict did a number on it - but even know, it has a myriad of secrets to share. Can you hear its whispers? No? Then listen harder, kid.

I couldn't resist the middle line.

: [Longingly stroke the scroll] But it whispers such sweet nothings to me.

Come on, guys! That was funny!

: You need to be a lot more threatening than you are now - and a little study and practice won't suffice. You'll need to aim bigger - you'll need to track down the relics of Tiers that escaped capture in the war.

I'll let you guys vote on the next one, but I am exercising my LP prerogative to go to Lethian's Crossing.

: I'm headed to Lethian's Crossing - is there something there I should look to acquire?

: Tunon has sent a Forge-Bound Master to the Crossing, and this mage-smith has just finished work on a masterpiece dubbed the Magebane. It's an iron helmet infused with wards against the Bane. While this is intended to help keep the settlement free of the scourges from the nearby Oldwalls, it would be of great use to you personally.

In order to gain power we are going to sacrifice the town. Hooray!

: The Crossing is by a junction in the Oldwalls - so you'll have a chance to put the helmet's Bane-ward to the test.

Whoa, hang on! You're one of the few people who has a bird's-eye view of the empire.

: Wait, I have questions.

: Well? Make it quick.

: I want to know more about the other Archons.

: Tell me about Tunon.

Bleden Mark is being honest, but remember, everyone in this game has their own view and agenda. Tunon's dream is of a better world through law.

: What's the story with Tunon?

: Tunon's been with Kyros even longer than I. Story goes that Kyros starts marching toward Tunon's little village - course, he wasn't named Tunon then. Anyway, our masked master to be gets it in his head that the only way to save his villagers and himself is to adopt the Overlord's laws BEFORE the troops arrive.

This reveals much to us. Not about Tunon, Tunon told us his story, but about Bleden Mark.

Earlier in the game posted:

Remember this? We didn't have to pass a lore check or anything. It helps to make Tunon love you if you talk about how much you love the law, but Tunon will tell you his story if you just ask for it. We're not even a particularly favored servant or anything, we're currently causing a hell of a lot of problems for the court (though we do have a reputation for high favor) and Tunon just told us his entire life story because we asked. Bleden Mark could not do this, and resorted to asking Calio for some hearsay. We know Tunon saw the adoption of Kyros' laws not as a means to save his people, but as an end in itself to bring peace and end hunger. He told us this. Bleden Mark, however, is the ultimate cynic who is utterly self-interested and cannot believe other people aren't as cynical as he is. He cannot understand Tunon's idealism, so he concludes that Tunon MUST have been acting out of self interest, or maybe to save his friends.

: What exactly is your duty to him and vice versa?

: Truth be told, it's been a pleasant working arrangement for a couple centuries now. Tunon does most of the talking. I live in my shadowy corner until someone needs killing. It's not like I want to be the figurehead atop a dais - the only attention I want is folks whispering my name in fear so I'm left alone.

This implies that Mark doesn't have an ego or crave adulation. We will disprove this in approximately five minutes.

: Old man? So there's some affection for him?

It's pretty easy to gain favor with Mark for asking questions. Back up the dialogue tree!

: What do you know about the Oldwalls' Spires throughout the Tiers?

Dammit Mark stop stealing my job. I'm trying to analyze this game and you confirm my metaphorical interpretations.

: Tell me about Stalwart's Ocean Spire.

: A couple centuries ago, the Regents of Stalwart were of a mind that greatness awaited them, should they reach the top. Of course, they lost so many engineers in the process, that they eventually abandoned the task for a fool's errand.

: Tell me about the Sunset Spire in Haven.

: Tell me about Spires in the Stone Sea.

Back up the dialog tree!

: That bracer your wearing is rather... eye-catching.

: Mhm. I bet you're thinking something like it'd look even better on you, right, kid?

You did tell us to get artifacts.

: drat straight, I do.

Hell yeah, free artifact! Yes, we could have used this to get the Archive, but that's just rude.

: I want to know more about you.

: I've known you for decades but don't know a thing about your past. Where'd you come from?

Cleopatra is at least in her twenties, good to know.

Yup, we can't ask about that again. Mark is very good at concealing things.

: What do you know about Kyros?

: He shrugs.

: How did you come to serve the Overlord?

I love option 2 but I suspect it pisses him off. My guess from talking with Tunon and Mark is that Kyros is, in fact, a woman.

: Why'd you try and kill Kyros?

Here we see Young Mark at least had a pretty drat big ego. Guy is an Archon, after all. This is also telling as to what motivates Mark - getting poo poo for himself and proving he's the best drat killer. Gank tyrant, get laid.

: What's the Overlord like in person?

: Enough questions for now.

It's telling that even someone who is basically Kyros' left hand is terrified enough to not tell us personal details about the Overlord. After all, if we knew she had gas when she ate strawberries and liked long walks on the beach, she'd be a person, and not an infallible living legend.

TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:

: Hey, you're not dead! Good job! So did you mean to steal the power of Kyros' Edict to become more powerful, or...

: Um, what?

: You're looking more powerful, and weirdly fire-themed. Maybe the Edict was set to do that? Huh. Anyway, you've got the Silent Archive, and you can gain a ton of knowledge from it.

: I was never allowed to see it, but people who worked with it said it taught them in their dreams. It's probably safe.

: It whispers such sweet nothings to me!

:

: I guess it is filled with 300 years of porn.

: Despite my anger, I'm really trying not to laugh right now.

: You need to not look like a wuss. There's three artifacts - one in Stalwart, one in Lethian's Crossing, and one in the Stone Sea. Where you headed?

: Lethian's Crossing, of course. What am I looking for?

: A magic hat made by a Forge-Bound master. It stops the Bane! Anyway, it's supposed to protect the town but you should steal it for yourself. Bleden Mark OUT!

: Can you spare some exposition for a poor Fatebinder? Tell me about the other Archons. Like Tunon!

: Tunon is just a mindless drone executing the laws as laid down by Kyros. There's nothing there.

: So where'd he come from?

: He's been with Kyros even longer than me! Supposedly he heard Kyros was marching on his village, then he decided to convert to Kyros' law to save all the villagers! Then Kyros was like "that's cool!" Keep in mind, I never bothered to ask Tunon this, so this is all stuff I heard from someone who very definitely isn't Calio!

: What's your relationship with Tunon?

: Well, he used to be my jailer, until we realized I wasn't completely nuts and I execute people on his behalf. It's pretty great, I get to kill people and be antisocial.

: So you're friends?

: Lol nope.

: Know anything about the Spires?

: They're a metaphor for power that places you above others.

: That's a cool bracer.

: You want it? Here you go! It's kind of dangerous, though.

: So tell me about yourself...where'd you come from?

: I killed a lot of people, don't ask me about that again.

: What do you know about Kyros? How did you join her? What's she like in person?

: Well, I tried to kill her, but failed, because I thought it would get me money and sex. In person? I can't tell you that, you better worry about her wrath from afar! Bleden Mark OUT!

Bleden Mark is the cynic to Tunon's idealist. It's easy to write him off as a two-dimensional character, but there's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it reference to people he regrets killing. Where Tunon believes that Mark considers himself a "slayer of the unjust", Mark is just an executioner because it's convenient and people leave him alone. Tunon wants to use the law to provide for the common good, Mark cares about no one except possibly whoever he regrets killing. Mark is brutally honest about who and what he is, but he is also blinded by his cynicism - despite this, he is loyal enough to not divulge the Overlord's secrets.

We'll see more of Mark as we complete missions.

Anyway, let's equip our new artifact. It's technically heavy armor, but I don't care. It slows us a bit, but it reduces all incoming damage by 10% (score!) and we can turn into a shadow version of ourself that deals bonus Arcane damage with each attack. I think this applies to spell attacks, but I will keep an eye on the logs when I use this.

Oh poo poo! He's asking if we have the forbidden knowledge! Umm...

Let's stall.

We'll close out the update by noting we got a lot of Favor with Bleden Mark.

Decisions Lie Before Us!

We need a party. Verse is mandatory so we can do her quest, but I need you to pick two of Eb, Kills-In-Shadow, Sirin, Lantry, or Barik

Who are we talking to? Sirin, Barik, Eb, or Kills-In-Shadow?

Choose wisely!

TheGreatEvilKing fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 31, 2020

# ? Oct 31, 2020 09:26

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

The entire point of the game, to borrow from your analogy, is that as a servant of tyranny your entire arsenal is composed of a lumberjack's wet dream, but your job description consists almost entirely of cutting neat slices of pizza, cake etc

E: ah gently caress, update got between me and Eclectic Tastes, who I was replying to.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 09:27

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

BRING EB FOR LETHIAN'S CROSSING

I cannot stress enough how important it is to bring Eb for the Lethian's Crossing quest, and for the love of god throw the rock and then ask about it later.

Seriously, it's the single best line of dialog in the entire game and the thread deserves to see it.

Also, why did you pick Lethian's Crossing second? It should be the last place you go, because you've already got the Spire also you very much want the other torchkeys first.

As another note, Bleden Mark gains Favor if you say you trust his judgment regarding the Silent Archive rather than talking like a crazy person. This is telling. As much as he plays the cynic, he appreciates when you genuinely trust him when he's being on-the-level with you. He's not so much a genuine cynic as he is someone who uses it as a defense mechanism because he's been hurt before. I don't believe for one second that Mark actually tried to kill Kyros just because Kyros was the biggest badass and he wanted to get laid. Nobody who ends up acting like Bleden Mark ever started out that way. He had ideals, and it led to him being hurt, and ultimately forced to bury those ideals as deep as he can. And now here's the Fatebinder, showing him that maybe, just maybe, there's still a little fight left in this world that had, for centuries, looked like it was just gonna roll right over for Kyros to conquer. It's no wonder he likes you so much on this route.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 09:49

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

I think for me, it's two things:

1. Evil is impossible without power

2. How, therefore, when people have power can we ensure it's not used for evil?

Tyranny is the story of people who categorically don't care about 2.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 09:59

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

EclecticTastes posted:

Also, why did you pick Lethian's Crossing second? It should be the last place you go, because you've already got the Spire also you very much want the other torchkeys first.

As another note, Bleden Mark gains Favor if you say you trust his judgment regarding the Silent Archive rather than talking like a crazy person. This is telling. As much as he plays the cynic, he appreciates when you genuinely trust him when he's being on-the-level with you. He's not so much a genuine cynic as he is someone who uses it as a defense mechanism because he's been hurt before. I don't believe for one second that Mark actually tried to kill Kyros just because Kyros was the biggest badass and he wanted to get laid. Nobody who ends up acting like Bleden Mark ever started out that way. He had ideals, and it led to him being hurt, and ultimately forced to bury those ideals as deep as he can. And now here's the Fatebinder, showing him that maybe, just maybe, there's still a little fight left in this world that had, for centuries, looked like it was just gonna roll right over for Kyros to conquer. It's no wonder he likes you so much on this route.

Thematic reasons. We'll talk more about Mark as more comes up, but for thematic purposes we're doing the Crossing first. We can always go back later.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 10:03

Keldulas: Mar 18, 2009

Honestly I had a different interpretation for Bleden Mark's comment interpretation about Tunon's history. It felt to me more like he never asked Tunon directly. With his cynicism, I don't think he expects Tunon to answer that.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 10:11

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Keldulas posted:

Honestly I had a different interpretation for Bleden Mark's comment interpretation about Tunon's history. It felt to me more like he never asked Tunon directly. With his cynicism, I don't think he expects Tunon to answer that.

There's also the fact that the relationship between two Archons is fundamentally different than between Tunon and the Fatebinders. Tunon explicitly sees the Fatebinders as essentially a microcosm of himself, so he actively seeks to guide them and nurture their growth as purveyors of law (this is why Tunon's Legal Discourse Corner is one of my favorite dialog trees, because it's just casually chilling with Law Dad*). Whereas Bleden Mark is, Kyros' imposed hierarchy aside, an equal, and ultimately a possible threat. Mark probably doesn't want to ask Tunon too many questions about his past to his ~~face~~mask, to avoid looking like he's plotting something.

*It's worth noting that literally none of the questions you can ask about Kyros' law will incur Wrath, including "Am I beholden to these laws?", which you'd think might cheese him off, but he actually just explains how Fatebinders have some wiggle room but they better not push it.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 10:41

BisbyWorl: Jan 12, 2019; Knowledge is pain plus observation.

Let's bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow and talk to Sirin.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 11:44

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Eb for both taking along and talking to.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 12:00

inflatablefish: Oct 24, 2010

BisbyWorl posted:

Let's bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow and talk to Sirin.

Sounds good to me.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 12:30

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

EclecticTastes posted:

Except you're missing that the good and evil are in the results. Means, on their own, are like soundwaves. A soundwave isn't a sound until someone hears it, and a means isn't a means until it has an effect on something or someone.

If you shoot an innocent person, that's bad. But if you shoot someone who was about to murder someone else, that's good. The shooting, therefore, has no predefined morality, but is rather defined by who you shoot and why.

Minority Report was not a how to.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 12:39

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

Talk with Barik, bring Eb and Sirin. Also check if you can still combine Eb's per rest invuln with Sirin's periodic AoE dmg to clear encounters without letting them retaliate in any way. :v:

# ? Oct 31, 2020 12:43

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Talk with Eb, bring along Eb and Kills-In-Shadow/

# ? Oct 31, 2020 14:54

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

BisbyWorl posted:

Let's bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow and talk to Sirin.

My vote as well.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 15:29

mr_stibbons: Aug 18, 2019

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Now this is kind of bleeding into fantasy bullshit, but the gist is clear. A reputation for power becomes power as people believe in it. This confirms how Ashe and Nerat became Archons - everyone believed Ashe was a great general so he got super regeneration powers. Note that this doesn't mean that Ashe could go head to head with Sun Tzu and win, merely that everyone believes he's a great general who cares for his men. We, the reader, can surmise that he promotes inept officers and relies on the superiority of equipment and unit cohesion rather than being good at tactics - but in Terratus, everyone believes he's an invincible general whose men never die and thus it becomes true.

Not to be overly defensive of Ashe, but instilling in a militia enough unit cohesion to stand up to a invading empire is no mean feat. Much of the ancient era battles were decided by which side broke ranks first. Unit cohesion was a critical and decisive quality for an early iron age army. Much of Greek and Roman tactics revolved around applying a highly cohesive block of heavy infantry to the enemy, and it worked out well for them. "Just" being supernaturally good at that is more than enough to qualify someone as a great general. Being good at tactics doesn't mean squat if you're troops run the moment they meet the enemy, or lack the discipline to obey commands. There's a tendency to glorify trickery and flashy tactics these days, but those were florishes that didn't matter if your army lacked the fundamentals to fight effectively.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 16:07

Narsham: Jun 5, 2008

My read on Mark after that last interaction is that he sees Cleopatra as his best bet to get out from under Tunon. We've heard multiple times already about the senior/junior Archon relationship, and that seems to shackle the junior in some mystical way. Tunon is at present not just a check on Mark's power and scope of action, he's a direct threat to him achieving whatever else he wants to achieve. There's hints that Kyros has another hook on Mark (at the least, he seems paranoid about her), but he certainly can't do anything directly against her at the moment.

Cleopatra's actions thus far suggest that she might eventually end up colliding with Tunon. Mark is actively pushing her to violate Kyros' law in accumulating power. He's got to know that Tunon will grant a bit more rope to his Fatebinders, and the whole "empowered by ending Edicts" thing exploits either a loophole in the law or one of Tunon's blind spots. We have now learned that the Edicts might have a power source greater than and outside of Kyros, and we know that ending them doesn't merely dissipate that power but collects some of it. But as Tunon's ruling about Barik indicates, he believes that any consequences of an Edict represent Kyros' will and must be accepted. That presumably applies to ending Edicts as well. So if Cleo gathers up loads of power quickly by ending Edicts, that must be Kyros' will and Tunon will let it happen.

Mark may also be exploiting a check on his own "murder threats to Kyros" remit. If Tunon has to authorize his kills, and Tunon has not yet decided whether Cleo needs to die, then Mark can keep pushing Cleo towards the edges of Tunon's tolerance as she gathers power, then try to play them off against each other while doing nothing. After all, Mark is supposed to support Fatebinders, isn't he?

# ? Oct 31, 2020 16:09

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Xarn posted:

Minority Report was not a how to.

You're aware that "about to" can also mean immediately about to, right? Or would you see a dude whip a knife out at someone and go "...Let's see where he's going with this, wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions."

# ? Oct 31, 2020 16:38

Radio Free Kobold: Aug 11, 2012; "Federal regulations mandate that at least 30% of our content must promote Reptilian or Draconic culture. This is DJ Scratch N' Sniff with the latest mermaid screeching on KBLD..."

Bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow. We haven't seen the werewolf yet.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 16:50

PetraCore: Jul 20, 2017; 👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

BisbyWorl posted:

Let's bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow and talk to Sirin.

This is my vote. Lantry and Barik won't mind babysitting for a little bit, right?

# ? Oct 31, 2020 17:18

Guper: Jan 21, 2019

The "if you strike at the chieftain, don't miss" line has to be a reference to The Wire's "You come at the King you best not miss"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6l_9reaLz0

In any case, let's bring Eb and Kills-in-Shadow and talk to Eb

# ? Oct 31, 2020 17:32

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Guper posted:

The "if you strike at the chieftain, don't miss" line has to be a reference to The Wire's "You come at the King you best not miss"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6l_9reaLz0

In any case, let's bring Eb and Kills-in-Shadow and talk to Eb

Actually, while the wording may be reminiscent of The Wire, the original quote is from Ralph Waldo Emerson. "When you strike at a king, you must kill him."

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:02

MechaCrash: Jan 1, 2013

If I might propose something a bit more complex for the vote: bring Eb and Barik to do the quest stuff, but for the talking, talk to Kills-In-Shadow while having Eb and Barik in the party. Yes, this means you can't have Verse in the party, but I want to see that party comp for when Kills suggests her "game." :allears:

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:05

Servetus: Apr 1, 2010

If you have that conversation at the Spire everyone gets to chime in. Really the only place to do it.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:09

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

EclecticTastes posted:

You're aware that "about to" can also mean immediately about to, right? Or would you see a dude whip a knife out at someone and go "...Let's see where he's going with this, wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions."

Probably not. But I am also aware that completely innocent people died like that.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:10

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

mr_stibbons posted:

Not to be overly defensive of Ashe, but instilling in a militia enough unit cohesion to stand up to a invading empire is no mean feat. Much of the ancient era battles were decided by which side broke ranks first. Unit cohesion was a critical and decisive quality for an early iron age army. Much of Greek and Roman tactics revolved around applying a highly cohesive block of heavy infantry to the enemy, and it worked out well for them. "Just" being supernaturally good at that is more than enough to qualify someone as a great general. Being good at tactics doesn't mean squat if you're troops run the moment they meet the enemy, or lack the discipline to obey commands. There's a tendency to glorify trickery and flashy tactics these days, but those were florishes that didn't matter if your army lacked the fundamentals to fight effectively.

The Roman example is an interesting one, because people like Hannibal who could also induce unit cohesion AND use trickery could beat their heavy infantry. The solution was to get Fabius who ultimately focused on degrading Carthage through trickery. Ashe is a competent general, but he's missing a few things that qualify him as the "Great General". However, as his competitors are people like Nerat who throw naked knife dudes into a phalanx, Ashe looks like a goddamn genius. We see that the Vendrien Guard are able to go toe to toe with the Disfavored if we don't intervene, and we'll see other factions later in the game who can do this.

Tl;dr Ashe isn't as good as everyone thinks he is, but he does have strengths that put him head and shoulders above the Kyrosian kiddie pool.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:20

Montegoraon: Aug 22, 2013

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

: Place the Commander's Plate on the pedestal.

: [i]You delicately remove the Silent Archive from the central pedestal, careful to replace it with another artifact in the span of a few seconds. The lines of energy flowing through the platform's center warble and distort disconcertingly for a moment, accompanied by faint tremors that unsettle the molten liquid below.

I believe you could call that Pulling an Indiana Jones.

I'll also vote for Eb and Kills-in-Shadow.

# ? Oct 31, 2020 18:42

sunken fleet: Apr 25, 2010; dreams of an unchanging future,
a today like yesterday,
a tomorrow like today.; Fallen Rib

BisbyWorl posted:

Let's bring Eb and Kills-In-Shadow and talk to Sirin.

nth'ing this vote

# ? Oct 31, 2020 23:07

JT Jag: Aug 30, 2009; #1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

One thing that might explain the Disfavoured's mediocrity in the Tiers is that, for most of their existence, they were an elite army specializing in defeating the armies of nations Kyros had not yet claimed in the field. Most of their existence has been striking from one battle to the next, gradually getting farther and farther away from their beloved homeland in the north. And Graven Ashe is a fairly young Archon--- based on the fact that some of our fellow Fatebinders knew of him personally from before he ascendend to Archon, he's likely less than 100. The Disfavoured have been busy in that fairly short period of time, being one of the spearheads of Kyros' conquest.

It's entirely possible they just don't have experience trying to put down an irregular insurgence in occupied territory. In all likelihood, they moved on as soon as the administration was set up in newly conquered territories. Consider the Conquest: they were very effective in putting down the Tiers' armies, and Tunon started to bring law to the land. They succeeded. And normally, I'd guess they'd have moved on at this point... but there's nowhere new to move on to. This is the last conquest. So this army with outstanding discipline and virtually unkillable warriors is being split up, forced to occupy various garrisons and being harried by detachments of rebels. They can't bring their full force to bear on these warriors, not while having to hold down territory of their own.

Basically, the Tiers is their Vietnam. Ashe is an excellent general of the last generation of warfare, leading an army that may well be undefeatable in the field. But they aren't being presented with the types of fights they excel in, and Ashe hasn't adapted yet.

JT Jag fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Oct 31, 2020

# ? Oct 31, 2020 23:28

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Fun Fact: It's at about this point that I realized that I'd actually glitched my playthrough by sequence breaking. Apparently activating the tower at Lethian's Crossing before you talk to whoever is supposed to be ordering you around messes up all sorts of flags. Impressively, I was still able to finish the game. I ended up just not getting to do the Crossing's content at all, and got sent to the Blade Grave first which was, uh, rough. Made doing the rest of the content an absurd cake walk though.

# ? Nov 1, 2020 00:03

EclecticTastes: Sep 17, 2012; "Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

paragon1 posted:

Fun Fact: It's at about this point that I realized that I'd actually glitched my playthrough by sequence breaking. Apparently activating the tower at Lethian's Crossing before you talk to whoever is supposed to be ordering you around messes up all sorts of flags. Impressively, I was still able to finish the game. I ended up just not getting to do the Crossing's content at all, and got sent to the Blade Grave first which was, uh, rough. Made doing the rest of the content an absurd cake walk though.

That probably only applies to the route that locks you into doing Lethian's Crossing first. I feel like I did the Sunset Spire before talking to Bleden Mark at least once and nothing happened, which would make sense since on Anarchist you do the Burning Library first and then get a choice between the other three areas.

# ? Nov 1, 2020 00:49

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 15:40

sunken fleet: Apr 25, 2010; dreams of an unchanging future,
a today like yesterday,
a tomorrow like today.; Fallen Rib

Not looking for spoilers, but does the game ever explain why the PC survives laying down / breaking various edicts? As we get deeper into the game I'm starting to feel like that is our most important 'protagonist power' and, up until now at least, there doesn't seem to be explanation except 'well, you're the player'.

# ? Nov 1, 2020 01:19

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