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It would be pretty hilarious if there's a Come to Jeuvens discussion between Savine and Glockta where it's revealed that Savine is and always has been cokehead fail-daughter, Glockta and (later) Ishri were keeping her empire afloat, and the only reason this is news to the reader is we only get her POV on the subject.
Chef Boyardeez Nuts fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 00:19
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Does Zuri reappear with her "brothers" at the end of a Little Hatred or at the beginning of TTWP? I remember in her first chapters she's made poor financial decision after poor financial decision since she came back from Valbeck, so Zuri being the one responsible for her empire all along could be true.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:57
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:But my lady I carried this scribe all the way from Adua! Ahahahahhaha. Leo serves a lot of narrative roles; one of them is that he’s just a man out of time. He’s Bonnie Prince Charlie basically, and he’s just had his Culloden. .
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Oct 27, 2020 07:05
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:But my lady I carried this scribe all the way from Adua! Say one thing for this comment, say it's a loving work of art.
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Oct 27, 2020 17:54
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Relevant Tangent posted:They weren't ever going to be content with that, if they weren't both completely avaricious power hungry assholes they'd never have gotten together in the first place. They're very sympathetic, but they're both utterly unprepared to do the right thing instead of the easy thing when it comes to money and power. Savine was my favorite character in ALH but she crossed far into the realm of unsympathetic to me in TTWP. She was fully willing to get her father and brother killed without a second thought, all to become queen (which seems like a poo poo job in this world anyways.) She succeeded in getting thousands of commoners killed, all for nothing. Most POV characters are attempting to be better or delusional, so I think it makes Savine especially detestable that she was so lucid with her motivations and amorality. Leo was an interesting villain because he would have been a hero in any other book. He was courageous, heroic, addicted to glory and impulsive. Like most classical fantasy heroes, he's also dumb as a sack of bricks. Knowing Savine could have saved him from himself with just a few words added to the tragedy. Rikke's betrayal was extremely satisfying to me, though I did end up feeling sympathetic once again for the Angland power couple during the hanging. That was a really good piece of writing.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:30
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Scissorfighter posted:Savine was my favorite character in ALH but she crossed far into the realm of unsympathetic to me in TTWP. She was fully willing to get her father and brother killed without a second thought, all to become queen (which seems like a poo poo job in this world anyways.) She succeeded in getting thousands of commoners killed, all for nothing. Most POV characters are attempting to be better or delusional, so I think it makes Savine especially detestable that she was so lucid with her motivations and amorality. Leo was an interesting villain because he would have been a hero in any other book. He was courageous, heroic, addicted to glory and impulsive. Like most classical fantasy heroes, he's also dumb as a sack of bricks. Knowing Savine could have saved him from himself with just a few words added to the tragedy. Rikke's betrayal was extremely satisfying to me, though I did end up feeling sympathetic once again for the Angland power couple during the hanging. That was a really good piece of writing. I really loved that heel-turn from the first book, where the reader would expect her to be humbled and changed by her experience and exposure to the way the other half lives. But nope, turns out all it did was make her more of a megalomaniac, but this time with a chip on her shoulder. As hosed up as Leo is, he at least comes off as dumb and idealistic rather than downright evil. Orso is the best, and Rikke and Clover backstabbing Stour was awesome.
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Oct 30, 2020 18:14
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Paddyo posted:I really loved that heel-turn from the first book, where the reader would expect her to be humbled and changed by her experience and exposure to the way the other half lives. But nope, turns out all it did was make her more of a megalomaniac, but this time with a chip on her shoulder. As hosed up as Leo is, he at least comes off as dumb and idealistic rather than downright evil. Orso is the best, and Rikke and Clover backstabbing Stour was awesome. I thought her logic when she found out about the plot was pretty on point though. She realized it had gone too far for her to escape unscathed, and was sort of forced to gamble everything on Leo. Like, she could have been hanged or had her assets seized just for being the wife a someone plotting treason.
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Oct 30, 2020 18:27
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Ccs posted:I thought her logic when she found out about the plot was pretty on point though. She realized it had gone too far for her to escape unscathed, and was sort of forced to gamble everything on Leo. Like, she could have been hanged or had her assets seized just for being the wife a someone plotting treason. Yeah, that scene was really well written. Ruthless pragmatism.
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Oct 30, 2020 19:29
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Ccs posted:I thought her logic when she found out about the plot was pretty on point though. She realized it had gone too far for her to escape unscathed, and was sort of forced to gamble everything on Leo. Like, she could have been hanged or had her assets seized just for being the wife a someone plotting treason. Well maybe, but she could always turn them in to her father perhaps, or try to convince Leo to turn the others in and frame it as "he was just giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Also give us a reward for discovering these traitors!". While that could still have some risks for anyone else, her dad basically ran the Union until he stepped down following her treason. I think she was pretty keen on the treason once she discovered it and just framed it as being "the only way" to justify it to herself.
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Oct 30, 2020 20:06
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Paddyo posted:I really loved that heel-turn from the first book, where the reader would expect her to be humbled and changed by her experience and exposure to the way the other half lives. Yeah it had been a while since I read ALH so I had memories of her growing as a person. I realize, looking back, she really didn't improve her views. She was just traumatized, and helped the one family she was personally attached to without realizing the systemic issues she was profiting from. Realistic portrayal of a wealthy industrialist tbh. Ccs posted:I thought her logic when she found out about the plot was pretty on point though. She realized it had gone too far for her to escape unscathed, and was sort of forced to gamble everything on Leo. Like, she could have been hanged or had her assets seized just for being the wife a someone plotting treason. I thought she was just convincing herself it was logical, like how Leo convinces himself it can be done without bloodshed (or that he even wants that.) Leo would have been able to safely leave the rebellion if she convinced him to since no actions had been taken yet. Scissorfighter fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Oct 31, 2020 |
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Oct 31, 2020 01:44
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My recollection is that Savine faced that fact she actually could have steered Leo away from this power grab in a late book POV. It was her ambition that made her blind to other paths until well after it was too late, and then only after defeat was certain.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:23
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I personally make my best and most logical decisions when I'm cutting pregnancy hormones with cocaine.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:29
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I personally make my best and most logical decisions when I'm cutting pregnancy hormones with cocaine. 
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Oct 31, 2020 02:40
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Joe Abercrombie posted:I think for the first time also this book sold more in audiobook in both the UK and US than in hardcover, which is both a sign of the times in terms of the importance of that side of the market and a ringing endorsement of the prodigious reading talents of Steven Pacey. Pacey gang finally on top. At this point he feels like a major part of the series' identity to me. Edit: Cover copy for The Wisdom of Crowds. I guess this is where the age of madness gets its name because it sounds nuts: (linking because it spoils TTWP) https://joeabercrombie.com/the-wisdom-of-crowds-cover-copy/ Scissorfighter fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 04:31
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A fun side effect of Pacey's narration is that my wife, who did audio only for the series, pronounces "Glokta" as "Glokter". I listen to the first few chapters of every new book just so I can know what voice Pacey gave the new characters.
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Nov 2, 2020 04:45
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Scissorfighter posted:https://joeabercrombie.com/progress-report-october-20/ Orso is my favorite character in the whole series, so gonna be real sad if he gets Louis XVI'd.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:08
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Scissorfighter posted:https://joeabercrombie.com/progress-report-october-20/ That gave away way more than I thought it would. Not that I'm complaining, the premise looks awesome!
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Nov 2, 2020 19:22
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Paddyo posted:Orso is my favorite character in the whole series, so gonna be real sad if he gets Louis XVI'd. He honestly might be okay with it though. As a reader it might make me more sad than he is, which is kind of funny in itself. It kind of makes sense as a grim but still ironic take on the whole situation that would be very fitting for Abercrombie.
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Nov 2, 2020 20:03
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I love guillotines.
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Nov 2, 2020 20:06
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Artonos posted:He honestly might be okay with it though. As a reader it might make me more sad than he is, which is kind of funny in itself. It kind of makes sense as a grim but still ironic take on the whole situation that would be very fitting for Abercrombie.
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Nov 2, 2020 20:31
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Vichan posted:I love guillotines. "At least it isn't a bloody hanging"
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Nov 2, 2020 22:59
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That synopsis just makes me think Pike isn't actually the Weaver, and the Weaver is a title bestowed on different people by a far off master which is probably Bayaz, because isn't it always? He could have sent Yoru Sulfur disguised as various people to give speeches. What his end goal is exactly is unclear. Maybe Valint and Balk were doing some really risky financial bets behind the scenes that backfired on them, and Bayaz decided he needed a way to liquidate the bank and destroy all evidence of its assets so he could reconstitute it later in a new form. Perhaps when the revolution is quelled and the bank is back on top, it will claim back its assets based on what people believe its assets to be, rather than what it actually was.
Ccs fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 3, 2020 |
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Nov 3, 2020 17:36
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Wasn't Sulfur the Weaver in the original series until Jezal "defeated" the rebels?
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Nov 3, 2020 19:56
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Darkrenown posted:Wasn't Sulfur the Weaver in the original series until Jezal "defeated" the rebels? He was someone called The Tanner, similar idea. I dunno if they had industrialized weaving in the original trilogy.
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Nov 3, 2020 21:04
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Yeah, those names and their MO is so similar that it seems to hint at a link between the two; although if Bayaz is behind the Breakers and Burners it would really be some three dimensional chess-level scheming.
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Nov 3, 2020 23:54
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Terror Sweat posted:Euz had kids, the maker had a child.l and shenkt has kids. That's all we ever hear of magic users having kids Euz was also a half-demon. Don't know if that muddies the waters. It's possible Logan is somehow related to the spirit-talking kid of Euz. Fenris the Feared appears to have been one of the demon descendants like Ferro, but again, demons are not magic users.
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Nov 4, 2020 05:22
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Just finished Trouble With Peace, probably his best book since The Heroes? I always thought there was a similar spirit between Joe Abercrombie and KJ Parker, but this one really paralelled the Engineer trilogy (which I'd recommend). What with sympathetic POVs on two sides of a war, love triangles, secret letters, moral ambiguity, outright sociopathy, cunning geniuses, heroic dunces, and even the best characters still essentially working to uphold injustice. Orso and Rikke chapters were definitely the most enjoyable parts. Thoroughly enjoyed the banter between Rikke and friends every chapter she had. I did figure out her plan slightly ahead of the reveal - probably only because I binged the entire second half of the book and remembered the timing on the letter Orso received - but I'm sure some people figured it out before her ships were late! Rikke seems the most morally righteous and easiest to root for of the POVs? Like father, like daughter! (Although she maybe did Red Hat wrong...) Wonder what trouble Calder will bring her, I assumed he was going north to seek Bayaz's help, but if he's elsewhere, could be Caurib? Keeping Stour alive will be an interesting deterrent. Orso's whole vibe is charming and relatable, so it's easy to forget that aside from propping up Bayaz's schemes, he's also fine with having secret police torturers and prison camps. Might not be that said if he gets revolution'd. Coked up or no, felt like Savine discarded a lot of development I'd hoped to see from the first book. I hated her, liked her and ended up hating her all over again. Broad can gently caress right off too. I'm glad we got the cathartic scene of Orso telling Leo the source of all the deceptions and misunderstandings over dinner, but Leo storming out of that and committing harder made him completely irredeemable. Not having the dinner would've given him more moral ambiguity, but I guess it was like permission to fully root for Orso at that point. I do think it's a weak plotpoint that both he and Savine were spared. All this war and not to even lose one main POV didn't sit right with me. Curious how any gay fans think the almost romance between Leo/Jurand and the homophobia was handled. There was also Antaup's paragraph about women that kinda came out of nowhere - wasn't sure if we were to read it as him being closeted asexual? At least it felt like some justice for Queen Terez in her last scene. (I always respected Joe for taking the criticism well that he'd kinda mishandled that in TLOK.) Y'all have got some good points on the Ishri = Zuri theory, but the main question I have is how did Ishri stop being so loving weird, haha?
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Nov 9, 2020 13:05
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A Little Hatred and The Trouble with Peace would've been better as one book, and if released that way I'd say it was Abercrombie's best work. Peace has all the character development and pay off, whereas Hatred is slower than his usual fare because of the number of characters and lots of set up. I really enjoyed it the second book and look forward to the third. Wish we would have seen a little more about what Jurand was doing during the climax (pun intended). I would have also liked to see the scene where Leo sends him away.
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Nov 10, 2020 07:10
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BananaNutkins posted:Wish we would have seen a little more about what Jurand was doing during the climax (pun intended). I would have also liked to see the scene where Leo sends him away. Tbh not showing it made it hurt even more. 
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Nov 11, 2020 10:57
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BananaNutkins posted:
No, not showing it was the right call. We don't need to see Leo spew homophobic insults while suppressing a boner for that whole situation to be the point where he becomes fully unsympathetic in his prejudice and total lack of self-awareness. It works better when skipped because we can very easily imagine it and it's bad enough.
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Nov 11, 2020 11:40
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I guess since they're both among the living, there ought to be time for gay stuff in the next book.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:37
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I have no idea how, but I want a scene where Shivers sees what the King of Styria looks like and just loving dies laughing
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Nov 13, 2020 18:59
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After the new book I went back and decided to go back through the whole series. I'm halfway through TLaoK now and my main thought is that it's a loving crime that GOT got a show but this isn't ever going to. So many awesome things to see, the House of the Maker, Alcus, the High Places, Dagoska, and Adua at the end. I've been thinking about how to translate the Bloody Nine to the screen and I can't come up with much good. The way the narration changes would be hard to convey with facial expression and body language, I think. The way he writes it, you get chills once Logan starts going cold. There's real fear about what he might do once you actually understand the degree to which he's possessed. I don't know how to show that, but that's probably just because I'm not a director. Anyway in hindsight, TTWP is definitely a better book than BtaH. It's hard to say if the first book of the new trilogy is better than the first of the old, since I already know where all the characters go the actual development has a much different flavor. I used to think I cared more about Logan and Jezel and everyone more when the first book ended as opposed to Orso and Leo and all at the same point. But I'm not sure anymore, rose colored glasses and all. The main thing though is the fact that most of the best parts of the whole trilogy are in the last half of the last book. That just makes me so super stoked for September. Also, God bless Joe Abercrombie for his writing schedule. Taking the time to practically finish the whole thing before releasing the first book makes the wait between books almost bearably short. Joe might not exist without GRRM going first but gently caress, GRRM could definitely learn more than a few things from Joe. Side note: Steven Pacey is just so loving good. If anyone ITT is actually reading the books I strongly suggest you stop and get the audiobooks. He's so good at the 'ughs' and 'gahs' and his timing is perfect. He also does shouting pretty well, I'm thinking specifically of General Poulder demanding an apology. Had me laughing out loud. Not to mention Logan and Ferro's scene, I look forward to that every re-listen. It hasn't stopped being funny yet. PopetasticPerson fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 03:39
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Pacey brings the story to life in a way I rarely experience with audiobooks. Marsters doing Dresden (once he hits jos stride) comes close. His delivery is just so perfect, and he's not afraid to inject pathos. His "it should have been you" in BSC was so complex and heartbreaking. So many emotions tied up in a single sentence. In both cases, the audio is the canon way to experience the story for me.
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Nov 22, 2020 05:14
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Guildencrantz posted:No, not showing it was the right call. We don't need to see Leo spew homophobic insults while suppressing a boner for that whole situation to be the point where he becomes fully unsympathetic in his prejudice and total lack of self-awareness. It works better when skipped because we can very easily imagine it and it's bad enough. I was almost hoping this never became a plot point because Leo's casual bigotry juxtaposed with his raging homoeroticism in book one was a low-key running joke I found amusing.
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Nov 22, 2020 06:07
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PopetasticPerson posted:I've been thinking about how to translate the Bloody Nine to the screen and I can't come up with much good. The way the narration changes would be hard to convey with facial expression and body language, I think. The way he writes it, you get chills once Logan starts going cold. There's real fear about what he might do once you actually understand the degree to which he's possessed. I don't know how to show that, but that's probably just because I'm not a director. Have you seen Split? Not saying I would cast James McAvoy as Logan, but the way he shows shifts in personalities was pretty great. Henry Cavill might be a good Logan. He does a good "Can we avoid fighting? No? Shame. Well then I have to unleash incredible violence", but I'm less sure how he'd do with the Bloody nine aspect. 
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Nov 22, 2020 09:31
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If we want to really play with audience expectations, Patrick Stewart with a beard would make an excellent Bayaz.Devorum posted:Pacey brings the story to life in a way I rarely experience with audiobooks. Marsters doing Dresden (once he hits jos stride) comes close. His delivery is just so perfect, and he's not afraid to inject pathos. His "it should have been you" in BSC was so complex and heartbreaking. So many emotions tied up in a single sentence. Totally agree. His delivery there was just masterful. I had read the original trilogy softcover but wanted to test out the BSC audiobook. After hearing that chapter, I went back and bought the audiobooks for the first three books within the hour. Magitek fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 11:20
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bayaz looks like a bald brendan gleeson, surely
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Nov 22, 2020 11:48
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Magitek posted:If we want to really play with audience expectations, Patrick Stewart with a beard would make an excellent Bayaz. I always pictured him as John Travolta. 
Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 12:56
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 My Bayaz.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:46
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