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Motronic posted:What would be even safer than that would be to install a proper air switch. It boggles the mind how disposals are still being wired up to wall switches, and even worse, switches inside sink cabinets. Oh, interesting, I didn't know about those! I guess what's required is to (maybe) drill a hole in the sink for the button to go in, and also remove the existing switch and replace it with a dummy plate, right?
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Nov 5, 2020 05:06
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Ok, so per what I talked about planning to do in my previous post, I tried replacing a 2-gang toggle switch with a Decora switch. I managed to do it, but I have a few questions: 1) The existing switch box had three wires, two for the separate lights and one for power. The hot wire for power was attached to the bottom terminals of the two switches, and each hot wire for a light was attached to the top terminal of a switch. All three neutral wires were twisted and capped together, and since the old switches had no ground, so were all three ground wires. Since the new Decora switches I got have a ground screw, should I attach the ground wires to them, too? If so, how should I do it? I have some household wiring I can cut and remove the bare copper wire from, so I can use one to attach to the ground screws on both switches, and then twist it together with the other three. I guess that would work, but I'm slightly worried that twisting together four copper wires (gauge 14 I think?) might be too much for one cap. Is there anything to that? 2) What are these loose brass plates attached to the terminal screws?  The wires aren't supposed to go under those, are they? All the how-to videos I've seen seem to only have the screw, so I'm not quite sure what these plates are for... 3) Since the copper wires are fairly stiff and all the terminals are on the right side of the switch, I find that when I screw everything back into the wall, the switches themselves have their right side leaning out, presumably from the stiffness of the wires. I don't know if any of the Decora switches I've used in other houses have had this issue, but now that I've installed one it's bugging me. I've tried re-pulling it out and stuffing it back in to lay flat with no success. Anything I can do about this? This is my first time at doing anything like this, so all my questions are pretty newb. Thanks for any help! 
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Nov 5, 2020 05:25
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floWenoL posted:Ok, so per what I talked about planning to do in my previous post, I tried replacing a 2-gang toggle switch with a Decora switch. I managed to do it, but I have a few questions: 1) yes, attach ground wires per the method you discussed, get some red or blue wire nuts to make all those connections in one, or use two wire nuts and a "bridge" wire between the two. 2) that's a pressure plate, instead of wrapping the wire around the screw, you're meant to strip it and stick it straight under that brass plate, it can accommodate up to two wires per screw. 3) decora devices are a complete motherfucker this way, and I loving hated installing them for that reason when I was an electrician. Basically you have to "over-bend" the wires back initially, then the it should line up correctly. I will never install decora bullshit in my house because of that, it's barely worth loving with when getting paid hourly. It is normal though
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Nov 5, 2020 06:14
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Elviscat posted:1) yes, attach ground wires per the method you discussed, get some red or blue wire nuts to make all those connections in one, or use two wire nuts and a "bridge" wire between the two. Ahh, thanks this makes sense! Follow up on #2, reading the instructions again ( https://www.leviton.com/en/docs/5601-Instruction-Sheet_EnFr.pdf ) it looks like I can either use the pressure plate ("backwire") or loop around the screw ("side wire"). (I was confusing "backwire" with the backstab method, which they call "Quickwire".) When is one way better than the other? My guess is that if there's only a single wire, then sidewiring would be more secure, and if for some reason I need to hook up two wires to the terminal (e.g. having multiple things controlled by a single switch) then backwiring would better accommodate two wires?
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Nov 5, 2020 07:21
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floWenoL posted:Ahh, thanks this makes sense! Backwiring is awesome if you have straight wire already or need to hook up 2 wires. No nut or pigtail needed. You still have the screw positively affixing the wire. Never quick wire.
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Nov 5, 2020 07:40
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H110Hawk posted:Backwiring is awesome if you have straight wire already or need to hook up 2 wires. No nut or pigtail needed. You still have the screw positively affixing the wire. Yeah, exactly this. All the benefits of side wire and quick wire or "back-stabbing" as we like to call it, none of the drawbacks of either.
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Nov 5, 2020 08:10
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H110Hawk posted:No problem. Cap it. Thanks! Last piece of the puzzle. I just passed my first electrical rough-in inspection! Move over pros there's a new hotshot in town. Most surprising thing was the inspector not wanting my recessed light boxes'/wires secured. He wanted 'em dangling, had to take out staples. I guess he figured it was more important to be able to maneuver them after the ceiling drywall goes up. Makes sense I guess as they're retrofit slim ones, got em for the tight spaces not so much that we don't have joist access. Thanks for all the folks in the thread/forum for your help getting me here!
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Nov 5, 2020 14:40
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floWenoL posted:Oh, interesting, I didn't know about those! I guess what's required is to (maybe) drill a hole in the sink for the button to go in, and also remove the existing switch and replace it with a dummy plate, right? Hole in the countertop for the switch, or if you're in the right situation recycle one - My new place had a faucet with a sprayer and a soap dispenser in holes to either side. I replaced the faucet with a pull down, so no need for a separate sprayer anymore. I recycled that hole for an air switch. As far as what you do with the existing switch, if it's under the cabinet and you don't already have an outlet to plug the air switch into that's a good spot to swap into an outlet. If you have a switch above the counter you can leave it or pull it/wire it constantly on and pull back the wiring under the cabinet and put in a surface mount box and outlet (if your is hardwired).
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Nov 5, 2020 17:25
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Okay, I'm back with more noob light switch wiring questions. So I have a 2-gang with two switches, one for the ceiling fan, and one for the lights (attached to the fan). Here's a picture, right after I replaced the switches with rockers, and before wiring up the ground: (Left switch controls the fan, right switch controls the lights.) 1) So I see that the hot wire for the power goes to the bottom connector on the right switch, then terminates at the bottom connector on the left switch. Then there's a wire group with a black wire going to the top connector on the left, and a red wire going to the top connector on the right. So I'm guessing those are the hot wires for the fan and the lights, respectively. However, there's also a different wire group with a black wire going to the bottom connector on the right. So that means that something is always getting power, right? What could it be? I guess I could disconnect it and see what breaks. Perhaps it's connected to one of the outlets in the room and was meant to connect to another light switch, e.g. to have a lamp controlled by it? 2) So in the bottom right connector, there's one wire that's side-wired (since it has to continue to the other switch) and another that's back-wired. Is it fine to do both side-wiring and back-wiring on the same terminal? In the old switch, the back-wired wire was instead quick-wired, so I guess the current way is better than that, but is there a better way to wire this? Thanks!
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Nov 9, 2020 05:31
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1) Yes, you have one H/N cable coming into the box, one H/H/N cable leaving the box that is controlled by the switches, and one H/N cable leaving the box that is powering something else and is unaffected by the switches. While you have the circuit breaker off see what else doesn't have power. If those wires are 14 guage and noticibly skinnier than wires you see in boxes with outlets (which should be 12 gauge and therfore thicker) you can be pretty sure the only other things that might be on that circuit are lights. 2) The typical way to wire that would be to have the 2 hot wires from the 2 cables feeding into box and leaving the box (but not the switched hot wires powering the light/fan) pigtailed together in a wire nut with 2 short lengths of wire each going to one of the switches. Having it with only one short wire connecting the pigtail to one switch and then another short wire on that same terminal to the other switch is OK too as long as both wires are firmly attached to that terminal, I think.
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Nov 9, 2020 11:38
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floWenoL posted:
That's not an acceptable way to connect those wires to that device, like the poster above me said, you want to connect the incoming and outgoing wires with a wire-nut (or Wago style connector), leaving two short lengths and side or back wire those lengths to the switches individually. E: the back wire pressure plates accept two wires, so you could wire the incoming hot to one switch, the outgoing hot to another, and then a short jumper between them, this is less good than the wire-nut method though. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Nov 9, 2020 |
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Nov 9, 2020 15:48
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So, I was reading back over several days of the fix it fast thread, and saw this exchange:Zero VGS posted:OK, it's freezing in here. I live alone in a standalone garage and the gas was never done to code in the first place so the gas meter is locked off. H110Hawk posted:14-30R to 6-20P is in theory fine but you should change out the breaker to be 20A so you have the correct overcurrent protection for your device. You can even find pigtails that will do it for you save for the overcurrent protection, this one is way overpriced but you get the idea. Just make sure it's not "L"14-30R. (And make sure I have R and P correct for your application. You need and R for your devices P.) Zero VGS posted:Well the Leviton recepticle and dryer cord I posted were like $25 total, I put them together and now this thing is blasting crazy heat! I've saved a lot of money on electric car charging adapters by making them myself this way, but never with a home appliance before and never with mismatch on the number of wires. yippee cahier posted:Take a look at your heater before you do, a big honking heater like that is probably fused internally. Am I the only one who thinks that giving any advice to someone who "doesn't give a poo poo about codes" is a bad idea? (Edit, or at least impressing upon the question-haver that they're only going to get code compliant answers, here) Nevermind that no one yelled about how bad of an idea it is to have a 20A receptacle on a 30A protected circuit? I don't think that fusing the device past the 20A plug is acceptable, and this just floated on by. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 01:46
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angryrobots posted:So, I was reading back over several days of the fix it fast thread, and saw this exchange: The "I'll put an inline fuse rated at 20A" is loving terrifying, because there's no product that does that safely. I didn't have the inclination to weigh in on that one since it didn't seem like the poster was gonna give a poo poo about outside opinions. E: but I agree with you.
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Nov 12, 2020 01:56
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Im putting a subpanel in my garage and will need to run a #6 to my main panel (pictured). The garage is on the other side of the wall on the left, so it should be a pretty easy run. Do you guys have any advice on how to pull the cable without doing too much damage to my walls? I've shown the joist direction in black and the ceiling heights line up in this picture and the garage. I guess Im wondering if Im better off attempting minimal holes in the drywall and it likely being a more pain in the rear end or cutting out bigger chunks that would give me work space but be slightly more annoying to patch? Please guide me.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:17
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Meow Meow Meow posted:Im putting a subpanel in my garage and will need to run a #6 to my main panel (pictured). The garage is on the other side of the wall on the left, so it should be a pretty easy run. Do you guys have any advice on how to pull the cable without doing too much damage to my walls? I've shown the joist direction in black and the ceiling heights line up in this picture and the garage. What's on the other side of that wall? If it's the exterior, you could always do conduit between the two and not have to deal with fixing drywall at all (assuming you're ok with conduit on the side of the house). Is there an attic above it? I'd expect you could effectively shove #6 down the wall by itself, and possibly get it into the panel that way. If you do have to cut the drywall, cut the width of the stud bay, and like a foot tall... it's much easier to fix a nice square hole versus some ragged oddly shaped hole. I've never worked with #6, but I'd expect it to be a huge pain in the rear end to get to do what you want.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:26
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angryrobots posted:So, I was reading back over several days of the fix it fast thread, and saw this exchange: I said to change out the breaker to correct the overcurrent protection. 
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Nov 12, 2020 02:29
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You mentioned it in passing, yes. IMO, no other advice should be given without assurance that this, the thing that keeps from burning your house down, is going to be done first. I personally don't think this is the place to discuss electrical rigging with untrained homeowners (or in this case, the guy the homeowner has living in their detached unheated garage).
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Nov 12, 2020 02:45
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angryrobots posted:You mentioned it in passing, yes. IMO, no other advice should be given without assurance that this, the thing that keeps from burning your house down, is going to be done first. Yeah, my I think when giving advice on the internet you have to stick to code, and nothing else.
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Nov 12, 2020 03:14
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Also I didn't post this to put H110Hawk on blast at all. I may not have replied in that way, but again IMO this is an example of why home electrical questions should get kicked to this thread to have more eyes on them. I have noticed this sort of thing before in the FIF and other fast-moving threads, where electrical questions get answered incompletely, or even erroneous information gets repeated and it doesn't get caught. I do think that given the dangers inherent to electricity, this thread/forum should stick to code-compliant advice strictly. Overall I do think that happens in the wiring thread where the pros, former pros, and resident former inspector pay pretty close attention.
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Nov 12, 2020 03:36
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angryrobots posted:I do think that given the dangers inherent to electricity, this thread/forum should stick to code-compliant advice strictly. Even as someone who's shared sketchy shortcuts I've learned from old electricians in the past in this thread I generally agree with this. I think there's room for "here's how to make the sketchy wiring in your house less likely to burn poo poo down until you can afford to replace it by slapping an afci on it (even if code says 'you shouldn't have power')" but I also really don't want someone to solder a couple buss fuses into their appliance cord and think that is appropriate over-current protection.
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Nov 12, 2020 04:21
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angryrobots posted:Also I didn't post this to put H110Hawk on blast at all. I may not have replied in that way, but again IMO this is an example of why home electrical questions should get kicked to this thread to have more eyes on them. I have noticed this sort of thing before in the FIF and other fast-moving threads, where electrical questions get answered incompletely, or even erroneous information gets repeated and it doesn't get caught. We're cool, it's definitely sketchy. 
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Nov 12, 2020 05:08
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Is there a wall switch timer something like this that doesn't require a neutral wire? I want to change my bathroom switch to a timer but it just has a hot line/load. Yay 60s/70s wiring. e: Seems like Leviton has one that would work for me. Now to find it locally. Anyone have any experience with these? Probably a common enough setup KKKLIP ART fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 19:44
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KKKLIP ART posted:Is there a wall switch timer something like this that doesn't require a neutral wire? I want to change my bathroom switch to a timer but it just has a hot line/load. Yay 60s/70s wiring. I don't think those require a neutral.
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Nov 14, 2020 19:52
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KKKLIP ART posted:Is there a wall switch timer something like this that doesn't require a neutral wire? I want to change my bathroom switch to a timer but it just has a hot line/load. Yay 60s/70s wiring. Just as a heads-up, it doesn't look like either of those are for use with an exhaust fan in case that's the plan.
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Nov 14, 2020 20:53
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Blackbeer posted:Just as a heads-up, it doesn't look like either of those are for use with an exhaust fan in case that's the plan. I may be thinking of a different model then. But whatever ones that look exactly like that which are rated for an exhaust fan that I've got in my house right now didn't need a neutral. And after a little digging it turns out that model was superseded with LTB60-1LZ which requires a neutral. You might need to go old school: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Intermatic-20-Amp-60-Minute-Indoor-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-White-SW60MWK/205478809
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Nov 14, 2020 21:04
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Yeah it sucks because we have one switch in the bathroom which has just a line/load on the switch. That switch powers in the overhead led light/fan combo as well as the light above the mirror. I just want a dang timer that isn’t a knob but until we redo the whole thing I don’t think it’s feasible
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Nov 14, 2020 21:42
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If I'm putting pneumatic controls on my garbage disposal you better believe it's gonna be 2-hand no-tiedown.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:42
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KKKLIP ART posted:Yeah it sucks because we have one switch in the bathroom which has just a line/load on the switch. That switch powers in the overhead led light/fan combo as well as the light above the mirror. I just want a dang timer that isn’t a knob but until we redo the whole thing I don’t think it’s feasible What about a motion sensor switch: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-Maestro-5-Amp-Single-Pole-or-Multi-Location-Motion-Sensor-Switch-White-MS-OPS5MH-WH/203202146 You might have to stick out your hand and wave every 5 minutes if you don't want to shower in the dark though.
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Nov 15, 2020 02:31
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It’s more I want the fan to run for 15-20 minutes after we leave from taking a shower. Right now I’m just leaving the switch on (and forgetting it, but that’s on me)
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Nov 15, 2020 03:11
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Many motion sensors (including that one) have a configurable delay before they switch off, so you could srt it to run for 15 minutes from the last detected motion.
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Nov 15, 2020 03:41
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Guys got no neutral though so motion sensor is out.
tater_salad fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Nov 15, 2020 |
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Nov 15, 2020 03:47
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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Panason...3688953#overlay How about this with motion sensor mode? You can always leave the switch as a manual "off" override.
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Nov 15, 2020 03:57
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tater_salad posted:Guys for no neutral though so motion sensor is out. The one I posted claims it doesn't need a neutral.
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Nov 15, 2020 04:03
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Nevets posted:The one I posted claims it doesn't need a neutral. Getting into pedantic territory here but I couldn’t remember the new rules on “no-neutral” switches and looked up the code ref. Per 404.22 and the exception it references you can have up to 5 devices in a retrofit situation that use the ground as a neutral, but that’s only for lighting loads and not excepted for motor loads. That switch you referenced says it can be used on a fan, but it’s not legal as of 2020 if your area is on NEC 2017. It might never be an issue, but I suspect there have been heat problems with the switches when controlling anything other than led/incandescent light loads (in addition to the sus practice of using the ground as a neutral). Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Nov 15, 2020 |
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Nov 15, 2020 06:47
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Nevets posted:The one I posted claims it doesn't need a neutral. Gocha sorry I assumed there wasn't a no neutral motion switch since it needs power.
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Nov 15, 2020 14:07
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tater_salad posted:Gocha sorry I assumed there wasn't a no neutral motion switch since it needs power. All of the "no neutral" switches that do stuff stay powered by "leaking" power. Which means they're gonna make LED's just barely glow when "off" and other annoying things like that.
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Nov 15, 2020 17:14
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I forgot if I asked before, but speaking of neutral chat, I have a switch box just a few feet above an outlet that controls some outdoor lights and well it doesn’t have a neutral. Easy enough to fix, but just to confirm, you can’t run bare THHN through a wall cavity, right? Use Romex? ... as I post this, I now need to go look what they did originally because it only has one wire run up there.
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Nov 15, 2020 22:53
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movax posted:
Yeah, you can't run loose thhn through the wall (generally). The wires either need to be in a raceway (emt, pvc, etc.) or part of a cable assembly (NM, uF, etc). You can run a loose thhn ground in some situations. :edit to add "loose" edit 2 also my dumbass wrote uF instead of UF. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 00:40
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movax posted:Easy enough to fix, but just to confirm, you can’t run bare THHN through a wall cavity, right? Use Romex? Correct, unless it is protected (conduit.) Exception to this is a ground wire. Code allows you to add-a-ground through basically any means. ^^Beaten with a piece of 3/4" EMT
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Nov 16, 2020 00:42
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angryrobots posted:I do think that given the dangers inherent to electricity, this thread/forum should stick to code-compliant advice strictly. Overall I do think that happens in the wiring thread where the pros, former pros, and resident former inspector pay pretty close attention. corgski posted:Even as someone who's shared sketchy shortcuts I've learned from old electricians in the past in this thread I generally agree with this. I think there's room for "here's how to make the sketchy wiring in your house less likely to burn poo poo down until you can afford to replace it by slapping an afci on it (even if code says 'you shouldn't have power')" but I also really don't want someone to solder a couple buss fuses into their appliance cord and think that is appropriate over-current protection. Late to the party, but as someone who likes posting here and has learned things from this thread I wanted to chime in. I'm w/ Corgski in that we can make things better even if it's not code-compliant sometimes. Things like over-current protection and other safe wiring methods should have a strong reaction, and Angryrobots is more than correct to bring this up as an example and take the pulse of people. I'm not sure what we should do other than encourage the people in the general threads to push hard to take the question to this thread. I personally catch up on this one more than the general ones.
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Nov 16, 2020 01:25
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