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quite apart from the inherent moral dilemma presented by the thesis “there are no bad tactics, only bad targets,” we have extensive historical examples that demonstrate that even in communist states the persistence of tools of oppression results in their being coopted by reactionary scum like lavrentiy beria, who made bull connor look like fred hampton
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Nov 14, 2020 22:04
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Azathoth posted:The fact that you're even asking this question means that you're either bad faith making GBS threads on prison abolition because you really really fear inner city youths coming to your town or you think that prison abolition means that there's no laws and everyone can do whatever they want without consequence. Lol this is the kind of post that chuds strawman "What DO you do about libs and wreckers" is emphatically not a settled subject and only the MLs seem to have an answer for it
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Nov 14, 2020 22:05
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staticman posted:ftfy Pulling out my phrenology callipers to demonstrate beyond any doubt that all whites possess the Sub-Orbital Racism Lobe
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Nov 14, 2020 22:09
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Epic High Five posted:Lol this is the kind of post that chuds strawman Every essay on abolition I found just says GOTCHA! MURDERERS AND RAPISTS RUN WILD RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE CALLED THE COPS! And it's like yeah but that's not really an answer
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Nov 14, 2020 22:09
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That one goon who grew up in a drug lab said they dragged anyone sufficiently unpopular into the woods and shot them ad hoc, which doesn't really satisfy either
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Nov 14, 2020 22:10
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uber_stoat posted:as an entertainer he is remarkable, it's just that he uses his considerable talents for evil. i'd sentence him to be executed, but i'd do it with a tear rolling down my face. it didn't have to be this way, Alex. after the revolution give him some mild reeducation and then appoint alex jones an Agitprop commissar
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Nov 14, 2020 22:14
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staticman posted:ftfy Hmm, yes, I shall argue against racist by stating one race is biologically different to the others. Being racist is a genetic trait rather than a societal one. I am very smart.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:15
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police and prison abolition that's actual abolition necessarily involves a radical restructuring of social relations. i visited barrow, alaska (now utqiagvik), once, and local justice was explained to me this way: there was a guy a few years back who was cooking and selling meth. the village is basically run by a council, since it's a subsidiary of the native corporation, and the council got together and talked about what to do about it. they sent someone in to pretend to buy meth and he took pictures of the guy's setup. the council looked it over and talked it over and then issued the guy a summons. when he showed up they said "here's a plane ticket to anchorage, don't ever come back. if you do you are going to go missing." that's how they dealt with it. that's obviously not an ideal solution, but it shows the contours of prison abolition in an anarchist or at least highly horizontal society: justice by mutual consent of the community. if there's some guy who's touching kids, maybe he just doesn't show up for work one day and nobody mentions him again. as long as we live in a gigantic nation, though, we need a centralized system. the difference is that police's job is not to punish or kill people, but to bring them into the justice system. and the justice system's job isn't punishment or warehousing, but rehabilitation. that means they make an earnest and solid attempt to rehabilitate their inmates, but if someone can't be rehabilitated, they just never get out. they're humanely kept segregated from the population so they can't harm them. there is a lot of thinking on this, we're not breaking new ground here in the something awful forums.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:16
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Crane Fist posted:Pulling out my phrenology callipers to demonstrate beyond any doubt that all whites possess the Sub-Orbital Racism Lobe All part of my studies on my theory: Since everything bad the white man accuses everyone else of, they're doing themselves, all the tactics they use against everyone else work 10x as effectively if used on whites.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:17
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Just disappearing people comes up a lot but if they're in power or even like, well liked, it never works and if they have a rifle and even a whiff of warning it's liable to end in a national news level bloodbath that rips apart any remaining fabric of a small community
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Nov 14, 2020 22:18
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shovelbum posted:Just disappearing people comes up a lot but if they're in power or even like, well liked, it never works and if they have a rifle and even a whiff of warning it's liable to end in a national news level bloodbath that rips apart any remaining fabric of a small community yeah it works in communities of like a couple hundred people where nobody has substantially more money or power than anyone else, and the only way those communities ever persist is if they're incredibly geographically isolated. it's a fantasy for anarchists. the real answer is that we still have police but they don't kill people and we still have prisons but they actually care about rehabilitating people, and the only people who end up in prisons are the ones who need to be rehabilitated (the "true believers" as you call them, the ones who committed crimes because they wanted to, they weren't just desperate or drunk or scared or whatever). everyone else does restorative justice, which is basically a combination of restitution and stakeholders including the victim and the community mutually determining the appropriate way to make right. most property crimes are simply solved via restitution + a punitive fine large enough to discourage criminality. we couple this with robust social welfare programs and decriminalization of a lot of currently stupid crimes. effectively the point is to provide enough filters that by the time someone commits a crime, AND there's no realistic way for them to make things right on their own, then we're left with just the true incorrigibles-- those who won't ever stop on their own, those who genuinely believe in what they're doing or just don't care. those people get put into a program that will continue until they're fit to re-enter society or dead of old age.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:29
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the weakest point in my argument is off limits because it's a gotcha question
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Nov 14, 2020 22:30
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:police and prison abolition that's actual abolition necessarily involves a radical restructuring of social relations. i visited barrow, alaska (now utqiagvik), once, and local justice was explained to me this way: This touches on the problem inherent in anarchism in general, which is that it doesn't really work on a large scale. For villages, sure, maybe, especially with photographic proof like you mentioned. But Twitter should make clear to anyone that quietly disappearing people who have slanderous rumors spread about them (not talking about notable, famous examples here, just personal drama where the facts are much murkier) is a horrifying, dystopic proposition for a civilization, especially when the burden of proof is decided on a whim by a council. But as you said, that's why we need a centralized system. The conversation also reminds me of Disco Elysium (which all roads lead back to) and the Union's position in Martinaise. And I apologize in advance for the nerdy shitheel response of bringing up a made-up video game example when you gave a story of a real-life place. But the game describes how Martinaise had a lot of problems with drug dealers and gangs, particularly since the cops never bothered to go there, and the reason they aren't around anymore is because the Union took over those peacekeeping duties and ejected them by force and with blood. As a syndicalist I would probably rather delegate those kinds of things to a large coalition made up of the working class where everyone gets a direct vote, than to a small republican council.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:30
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basing my leftist paradise on small-town mississippi justice
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Nov 14, 2020 22:33
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:the real answer is that we still have police but they don't kill people and we still have prisons but they actually care about rehabilitating people, and the only people who end up in prisons are the ones who need to be rehabilitated (the "true believers" as you call them, the ones who committed crimes because they wanted to, they weren't just desperate or drunk or scared or whatever). everyone else does restorative justice, which is basically a combination of restitution and stakeholders including the victim and the community mutually determining the appropriate way to make right. most property crimes are simply solved via restitution + a punitive fine large enough to discourage criminality. But this just sounds like reform?
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Nov 14, 2020 22:34
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:yeah it works in communities of like a couple hundred people where nobody has substantially more money or power than anyone else, and the only way those communities ever persist is if they're incredibly geographically isolated. it's a fantasy for anarchists. the real answer is that we still have police but they don't kill people and we still have prisons but they actually care about rehabilitating people, and the only people who end up in prisons are the ones who need to be rehabilitated (the "true believers" as you call them, the ones who committed crimes because they wanted to, they weren't just desperate or drunk or scared or whatever). everyone else does restorative justice, which is basically a combination of restitution and stakeholders including the victim and the community mutually determining the appropriate way to make right. most property crimes are simply solved via restitution + a punitive fine large enough to discourage criminality. Just want to touch on this: There's a lot of studies that show that this would be largely unnecessary because punitive measures do not discourage anyone and increasing the severity of punishment (as in marginal deterrence) does not deter crime. In truth, incurring a larger fine on someone who committed theft is likely to just make them more destitute and more likely to steal again. This sort of counterintuitive logic is a huge barrier to people getting into prison abolition. Also a shocking number of people defending the prison-industrial complex ITT. Just goes to show C-SPAM is not necessarily a leftist forum. shovelbum posted:But this just sounds like reform? No, reform is meant to improve conditions of prisons. Abolition removes people from prisons, and questions the utility of them.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:37
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people itt really making a compelling case for prison abolition by floating "unaccountable vigilantes dragging people into the woods and shooting them" as an alternative justice approach personally, i would support student loan forgiveness for individuals who operate a successful vigilante band in underserved communities for at least 3 years
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Nov 14, 2020 22:39
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Jazerus posted:people itt really making a compelling case for prison abolition by floating "unaccountable vigilantes dragging people into the woods and shooting them" as an alternative justice approach Amazing how we went from "prison abolition is bad because Nazis committing hate crimes get off too easy" to "prison abolition is bad because drug dealers might get dragged into the woods and shot"
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Nov 14, 2020 22:41
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the worst offenders should be forced to read your posts imo
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Nov 14, 2020 22:42
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Sounds like the solution is either to make that person someone else's problem by exiling them, lynch mobs, or attacking the person asking the question then?
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Nov 14, 2020 22:44
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Amazing how we went from "prison abolition is bad because Nazis committing hate crimes get off too easy" to "prison abolition is bad because drug dealers might get dragged into the woods and shot" yeah the latter is kind of bad im not sure where you got the idea that i think prison abolition is bad tho? it's just that the "death squad" alternative does not get my engine running. personally. you might like it in which case you should gently caress off
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Nov 14, 2020 22:44
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Also a shocking number of people defending the prison-industrial complex ITT. Just goes to show C-SPAM is not necessarily a leftist forum. Eh when you're trapped in a burning building and your choices are effectively limited to "(A) die quietly or (B) howl down a drainpipe for a while and then die" it's not like you're gonna convince yourself you chose B expecting meaningful intelligent discussion.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:46
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Jazerus posted:im not sure where you got the idea that i think prison abolition is bad tho? Maybe it has something to do with you coming into a discussion trying to explain how better things are possible to shovelbum instead of defending the insane and racist American prison-industrial complex to poo poo on the guy advocating for prison abolition DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:as long as we live in a gigantic nation, though, we need a centralized system. Simultaneously critiquing "go read a loving book on prison abolition" as being scolding lib poo poo while also throwing a tantrum and refusing to do more than skim any effortposts on the topic: That's C-SPAM!
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Nov 14, 2020 22:48
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I feel lile rehabilitation has its limits as a goal. A nazi torturing someone to death and then peacefully working as a mechanic 6 years later is not what I'd call a success story for your justice system.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:50
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Flavius Aetass posted:I feel lile rehabilitation has its limits as a goal. A nazi torturing someone to death and then peacefully working as a mechanic 6 years later is not what I'd call a success story for your justice system.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:50
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Maybe it has something to do with you coming into a discussion trying to explain how better things are possible to shovelbum instead of defending the insane and racist American prison-industrial complex to poo poo on the guy advocating for prison abolition this is cspam, you're supposed to assume other people aren't huge assholes who would do something like oppose prison abolition. that's sort of the foundation of the whole thing. hth
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Nov 14, 2020 22:51
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Flavius Aetass posted:I feel lile rehabilitation has its limits as a goal. A nazi torturing someone to death and then peacefully working as a mechanic 6 years later is not what I'd call a success story for your justice system. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:if someone can't be rehabilitated, they just never get out. they're humanely kept segregated from the population so they can't harm them. I wouldn't classify a Nazi who tortured someone to death as "rehabilitatable," the point is that you can have a humane system that de-emphasizes marginal deterrence and still deal with people like that. They aren't mutually exclusive. You do not need a monstrous prison complex that primarily targets people of color to see that Nazi murderers get justice. Prison abolition has nothing to do with that Danish guy's ridiculous sentence. It's racism. Jazerus posted:this is cspam, you're supposed to assume other people aren't huge assholes 
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Nov 14, 2020 22:54
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Jazerus posted:this is cspam, you're supposed to assume other people aren't huge assholes who would do something like oppose prison abolition. that's sort of the foundation of the whole thing. hth I feel like in practice this isn’t true. everyone is a secret lib, just a matter of time
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Nov 14, 2020 22:56
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Flavius Aetass posted:I feel lile rehabilitation has its limits as a goal. A nazi torturing someone to death and then peacefully working as a mechanic 6 years later is not what I'd call a success story for your justice system. If you can rehabilitate the worst people and have them no longer be the worst person, that is good even if your instinct is that they must suffer for what they have done.
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Nov 14, 2020 22:57
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yeah some guy i've never seen before and charlesthehammer are gonna convince me that cspam is actually about being a big fuckin jerk instead of posting w/ your posting pals feel like d&d might be more your speed, champ
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Nov 14, 2020 22:58
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Yall would be way happier if you just became tankies. We got answers for all of this baked right into the ideology and historical precedent to work forward from Yeah sure it wasn't perfect but it's pretty obvious by now that nobody else has any real answers. How ya gonna moan about gulags then defend literal lynch mobs lmfao
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Nov 14, 2020 23:00
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Jazerus posted:yeah some guy i've never seen before and charlesthehammer are gonna convince me that cspam is actually about being a big fuckin jerk instead of posting w/ your posting pals i don't think i need to convince you since your first reply was being a big fuckin jerk and you've done nothing else since. when i said you were wrong i meant it was because you came in assuming everyone was a huge rear end in a top hat-- the gall of being like "how could you accuse me of not supporting prison abolition?!?!" while also accusing people of supporting armed vigilantes murdering people on hearsay 
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Nov 14, 2020 23:05
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Cup Runneth Over posted:
i never called anything scolding lib poo poo, i think you are mistaking me for someone else. my point with the quoted text is that the fundamental issue with the "community justice" system i saw in utqiagvik is that it deals with troublemakers by making them someone else's problem, but that's not actually useful; ultimately the buck has to stop somewhere, and you have to decide "what is the appropriate thing to do with people who transgress the social order." this has to be decided in a like way for the whole polity, otherwise you get the problem of shuffling criminals around.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:08
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https://twitter.com/rexchapman/status/1327726287620886528?s=21 looks lame
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Nov 14, 2020 23:09
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Epic High Five posted:Yall would be way happier if you just became tankies. We got answers for all of this baked right into the ideology and historical precedent to work forward from  Seriously, being on the ground at CHAZ when the CHOP coup happened downright pushed me into receptive curiosity towards them.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:11
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:i never called anything scolding lib poo poo, i think you are mistaking me for someone else. my point with the quoted text is that the fundamental issue with the "community justice" system i saw in utqiagvik is that it deals with troublemakers by making them someone else's problem, but that's not actually useful; ultimately the buck has to stop somewhere, and you have to decide "what is the appropriate thing to do with people who transgress the social order." this has to be decided in a like way for the whole polity, otherwise you get the problem of shuffling criminals around. No, not you, I was quoting the parts of your post that directly addressed what people were complaining about, not replying to you. e: Also I think people are mixing up your story about sending a drug dealer on a one-way plane trip to Anchorage with shovelbum's post about some guy who grew up in a drug lab where they dragged unpopular people out into the woods to shoot. Just the most insanely lazy and reactionary posts this page Cup Runneth Over has issued a correction as of 23:16 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 23:12
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Flavius Aetass posted:I feel lile rehabilitation has its limits as a goal. A nazi torturing someone to death and then peacefully working as a mechanic 6 years later is not what I'd call a success story for your justice system. Oh no the town council would just vote to murder them
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Nov 14, 2020 23:12
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What is even going on, that "do better sweaty, read a book and realizse your secret fascism" poster never even followed up
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Nov 14, 2020 23:13
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This skips over the part where a chastity cage gets drilled into his hip
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Nov 14, 2020 23:14
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Jazerus posted:yeah some guy i've never seen before and charlesthehammer are gonna convince me that cspam is actually about being a big fuckin jerk instead of posting w/ your posting pals it can be both
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Nov 14, 2020 23:16
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