|
Thanks, I was a little confused when I ran across it in a short stories collection, since its been on my " buy it when you see it"ist for ages. I
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 11:43 |
|
|
Well, I finally managed to make myself finish Long Sun. It's probably my least favorite Wolfe thing so far and I struggled at times to get through it, but I was told Short Sun was really good and I figured I might as well do my best to get through it. Started On Blue's Waters and it's already much more interesting and enjoyable, but there's a lot I would've already missed had I skipped over Long Sun so now I don't know what to think about it. The parts of Long Sun where incredibly important events got totally skipped over were hilarious though, and it never stopped being funny right up until the very end.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2020 23:09
|
|
|
I’m rereading Long Sun now, and just don’t get how people find it unenjoyable or a slog. It’s probably my favorite of them - maybe people don’t like the 3rd person POV?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2020 15:05
|
|
|
What Wolfe pulled off in the last couple pages of Litany--condensing the pantheon down to Pas and the Outsider, with himself unknowingly completing the Trinity--still makes my head spin. It was like he had spent hundreds of pages tying a knot and at the last moment pulled a single thread and the whole thing came undone. I still haven't gotten around to Epiphany. I'm a little afraid it will ruin the effect.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2020 15:27
|
|
|
One of these days I'm going to do a complete Solar Cycle reread so maybe knowing where Long Sun is headed will make it easier to get through on a second pass, but I just felt like they spend ages in that loving cave and so little happens. Short Sun was such a masterwork in comparison.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2020 00:25
|
|
|
I struggled with Long Sun the first time around like most folks (well not Nightside, Nightside is a wonderful self-contained masterwork) but found it absolutely thrilling the whole way through the second time. Even the tunnels and the Talos factory and all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 15:35
|
|
|
Oddly enough the only Solar Cycle book I haven't fully opened up to is On Blue's Waters. The few times I've read it it's felt okay and stuff but it doesn't really do much for me. Then In Green's Jungles comes around and I lose my poo poo. I'm confident at this point that the problem is me. After all, podcast people made me go from being lukewarm on Urth of the New Sun to aggressively pointing at my roommate and making Eh? Eh? gestures while waiting for them to finish their first read of it so I can start droppin' bombs. I think the only Wolfe books that aren't significantly improved by rereads or recontextualizations are Operation ARES (duh) and The Devil in a Forest. Which is fine in a YA sort of way and kind of has a neat tie in to real-world history that adds a bit but for the most part you get what you got.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 16:18
|
|
|
I’ve been staring at Devil in a Forest for a while, haven’t ever actually read it though. Honestly this reread of Long Sun is cementing my belief that of all the Wolfe stories it’s probably the one best suited to a killer prestige TV treatment. Nightside has this wild Deadwood-ish vibe that I didn’t really appreciate before (Blood is basically Swearengen, really).
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
Finally finished long and short suns, have a couple of questions. 1. What happened to Silk? Why was he cut when possessed by Horn? 2. Who was the woman in the coffin? Was it Hyacinth, which would be logical but Horn knew Hyacinth but never mentioned that it was her. 3. Whats with the azoth? It is being mentioned quite deliberately as he hides it from everyone but never actually uses. Including 2 wars that he nearly lost and used ridiculous methods to win while could have just used the azoth. Is it a lie of some sort?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 04:10
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:Finally finished long and short suns, have a couple of questions. To 1 and 2: 1) I was under the impression that Silk had attempted to commit suicide, but my theory is spotty at best. I think the suicide wasn't successful, but he was traumatized enough that he needed a "reboot" so to speak, and merging with Horn let him get over that. We know from Return to the Whorl that this is still Silk even if Horn's "soul" was grafted on. I assume that Horn's memories/experiences/goals gave Silk the push he needed to keep going. 2) I assume it's Hyacinth and it was her death that drove Silk to suicide. With Horn's identity grafted to him, he won't acknowledge her directly because a) Horn never cared for her (see her depiction in Long Sun) and b) acknowledging her death could potentially undo what recovery Silk has had and lead him back into being suicidal over her death Disclaimer: I've only read the whole series once and I am by no means a pro-Wolfe reader. These were just my impressions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 05:40
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:To 1 and 2: Neither I am Arimani, but a couple of thoughs: It is very deliberate that he always calls it "Hyacinth's azoth" but never mentions the dead woman in the coffin by name. I am not so certain he even had this azoth which can be huge If Arimane already spoke about it, let me know so I'll just read his book and wont bother myself. ah, and another important thing Silk was already possesed by Pas, is this important? Could this prevent Horn from possesing him? Sekenr fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Sep 2, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:Neither I am Arimani, but a couple of thoughs: What if the whole book is Pas's lies?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 06:35
|
|
|
What if the entire book was written by Pas?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 06:38
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:What if the entire book was written by Pas? Close in concept, but you are wrong. The entire Solar Cycle was indeed written by one person, but that person is Canog, the student. As he sits in his cell in the Citadel, during the reign of Typhon, he overhears a madman telling stories. Inspired by these stories, Canog works backwards and forwards, imagining what the world would be like if the crazy fool in the cell next to him was telling the truth. Thus, all of the Solar Cycle is the fiction devised by a student in jail, inspired by a random person's desperate delusions in the face of torture and execution. There is no Severian, there is no Thecla, there is no Silk, no sun of any length but that of Urth's, and no higher beings or universes. Only the brutal rule of Typhon and the escapist fantasies of Canog. In our real world, it is said of the relics of Saint Canog that no man can tell a lie in their presence. Which, of course, is that usual Wolfian irony, because the legends say nothing of Canog's ability to lie - that is write fiction - in his own presence. Azram Legion fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Sep 2, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 07:24
|
|
|
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynog_ap_Brychan posted:Moreover I must not be silent concerning the collar which they call St. Canauc's; for it is most like to gold in weight, nature, and colour; it is in four pieces wrought round, joined together artificially, and clefted as it were in the middle, with a dog's head, the teeth standing outward; it is esteemed by the inhabitants so powerful a relic, that no man dares swear falsely when it is laid before him: it bears the marks of some severe blows, as if made with an to break the collar for the sake of the gold, experienced the divine vengeance, was deprived of his eyesight, and lingered the remainder of his days in darkness.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 07:37
|
|
|
Exactly! Every piece of the puzzle fits perfectly in my First Canog Theory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 07:41
|
|
|
What the gently caress  you all shoud be banned
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 08:57
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:What if the entire book was written by Pas? I don't think this works based on how and when Severian encounters him, but I'd have to reread Urth because I feel like their first chronological encounter is in there but I could be misremembering.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 11:36
|
|
|
Still, I wish that someone more skilled at wolfeology than me would explain azoth and dead woman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
I don't see any reason to think the azoth doesn't exist, but rather I think the point is that using the azoth is a distinctly non-Silk thing to do, and this is a hint and reminder that we are seeing a character who is more and more Silk over time; the Horn who died on Green would probably have used an azoth without hesitation in his campaign to repair the lander, against other humans and inhumi alike, but Silk has always seen an azoth as a weapon of last resort and prefers to resolve situations with his diplomacy and cleverness rather than fight it out (consider in Dorp how he admits he probably could've escaped with Jahlee and Hide but decides not to even though he knows that the judges are biased against him). Having the azoth and not using it strikes me as thematically similar to having the secret of the inhumi and not using it, even though Silk/Horn find themselves in situations where it might be beneficial to have used either. Also regarding the azoth specifically: The narrator in Return to the Whorl at one point explicitly refers to retrieving "Maytera Mint's gift." The only thing he could've possibly gotten from Mint is Hyacinth's azoth, as Silk gave the azoth to Mint in Calde and she never returns it during the events of Long Sun, so her returning it to him only makes sense. As far as the dead woman, it's definitely Hyacinth and Silk tried to kill himself after she died by cutting his wrists. It's mentioned by Hound and Tansy that Silk and his wife moved into an abandoned manteion nearby, the farmer and his wife say the woman who moved in there had been sick, and Silk/Horn feel a sense of impulsive revulsion when trying to touch the knife. Hyacinth died, Silk's "spirit" was dying as the Neighbor who came to Horn on Green said, and either Horn's consciousness was (possibly temporarily) transported into Silk to give him the will to live or Silk suffered some kind of psychotic break that convinced him he was Horn and prevented him from recognizing who Hyacinth was. The latter is a bit dubious though, as Silk knows enough of Horn's life on Blue to convince Horn's own sons of his identity, and he remembers Green which Silk's body should have never been to. On the other hand, Horn knows full well what Hyacinth looks like so unless she changed massively in twenty years, Horn ought to have recognized her.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
Nakar posted:I don't see any reason to think the azoth doesn't exist, but rather I think the point is that using the azoth is a distinctly non-Silk thing to do, and this is a hint and reminder that we are seeing a character who is more and more Silk over time; the Horn who died on Green would probably have used an azoth without hesitation in his campaign to repair the lander, against other humans and inhumi alike, but Silk has always seen an azoth as a weapon of last resort and prefers to resolve situations with his diplomacy and cleverness rather than fight it out (consider in Dorp how he admits he probably could've escaped with Jahlee and Hide but decides not to even though he knows that the judges are biased against him). Having the azoth and not using it strikes me as thematically similar to having the secret of the inhumi and not using it, even though Silk/Horn find themselves in situations where it might be beneficial to have used either. I don't really have any point to make, just find it very odd that he would resort to incredibly risky collaboration with inhumi instead of using azoth As for the woman - yeas, this is what I was saying.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2020 10:24
|
|
|
It's not just Horn's memories that are grafted on - I think it is actually his soul. Remember that there is a theme throughout wolf of lesser beings merging into greater ones, either explicitly or in character, as they act and behave more like that which is above them. Horn has reached apotheosis by blending with his teacher and idol, moreso later on when he merges into Silk completely.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2020 15:29
|
|
|
I keep thinking about the azoth and it just doesnt make any sense. He mentions a lot how he hides the azoth from everyone and never uses. Silk used it occasionally, Horn used it not once. I suspect that its a lie and there was no azoth. Note how every mention of it is very deliberate, basically you almost forgot that it even exists and than the author mentions how he hides it from everyone
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 12:21
|
|
|
I'm reading Peace right now and holy poo poo about 100 pages in this is a disorienting book
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 16:16
|
|
|
So I know this is only slightly related but anyone have any Lafferty recommendations? From what I understand Lafferty was Wolfe’s favorite
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
After years of off and on reading I finally finished Long Sun last night, and queued up On Blue's Waters, but it's been over a decade since I read BotNS and that distance, plus slow reading of Long, meant that while I was able to follow and retain the general plot of Long, and could follow along with some post-read analysis articles, connections to BotNS like Pas being Typhon flew over my head because I simply didn't remember anything about the latter. Is this going to be an issue with Short Sun? I've never read Urth (didn't even know it existed until a few years after finishing BotNS) and had meant to reread BotNS in order to then be able to read Urth. Would it make more sense to do that reread now and then read Short Sun, or should I move to Short Sun since it more closely connects to Long Sun?
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2020 08:35
|
|
|
I'd go with Short Sun, honestly. It only really touches on BotNS near the end, whereas it will make pretty much no sense without knowing the Long Sun characters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2020 08:57
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:I keep thinking about the azoth and it just doesnt make any sense. He mentions a lot how he hides the azoth from everyone and never uses. Silk used it occasionally, Horn used it not once. I suspect that its a lie and there was no azoth. Note how every mention of it is very deliberate, basically you almost forgot that it even exists and than the author mentions how he hides it from everyone Also, boy that sure was an ending.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2020 03:58
|
|
|
Coming close to finally finishing BOTNS. Looking forward to actually reading this thread and seeing what everyone else thought of it!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2020 23:43
|
|
|
Appoda posted:Coming close to finally finishing BOTNS. Looking forward to actually reading this thread and seeing what everyone else thought of it! Reread the whole series first honestly. The whole you can't read wolfe you can only reread wolfe ain't a meme
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2020 07:58
|
|
|
I've already restarted twice I think  . My third reading will be vicariously through this thread, assuming I don't immediately do Urth right after.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2020 10:37
|
|
|
Appoda posted:I've already restarted twice I think you should definitely jump right in Urth, it's very disorienting and bwuuhhh to do so, which is the correct way to read it
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
I love to bwuh Catching up on the thread has been a treat. I picked up on more than I expected, but it's hard to gauge the connective tissue and relevance when there's a thick forest of details to look back on. Not sure how I fall on the narrative as a whole. I suppose I'll save that for after I finish Urth. Another quick note, the way people talk about BOTNS online reminds me so much of how reddit and youtube nerds talk about Dark Souls. Not just because the content is similar (I wouldn't be surprised if BOTNS and Dying Earth were foundational inspirations for the Souls setting), but in the way people argue for and against interpretations and readings that are varying levels of fabricated fanfiction.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 23:34
|
|
|
Does it matter which order I read Short and Long Sun in?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2020 18:22
|
|
|
Short sun is a direct sequel to long sun so I guess the answer is sort of
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
MeatwadIsGod posted:Does it matter which order I read Short and Long Sun in? Do Long Sun first. The former is a direct sequel to the latter and it'll make no sense if you don't read Long Sun first.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2020 21:34
|
|
|
Halfway through Lake of the Long Sun and really enjoying it. It's a much smoother read after having been primed by BOTNS to treat symbols, names, and titles with a requisite degree of fuzziness. But it was fun picking up on stuff within the first chapter or two like the setting being a generation ship of Typhon-worshippers. It's cool seeing an almost Elmore Leonard plot being applied to this setting but it fits really well.
MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Dec 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2020 06:30
|
|
|
Please post if you have any idea what:late book 3 spoilers: Spiderwas saying, cause I have no goddamn idea, I glazed right over that nonsense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2020 07:29
|
|
|
I just finished Caldé and no character by that name has been mentioned yet so guessing they show up in the final book. I'll report back if I have any ideas after I've read that part. Long Sun has gradually been losing me overall though. It has some great characters and I like some of the elements Wolfe plays with like showing what a nightmare transhumanism would be in practice given that it would be exclusive to the upper echelons of society in perpetuity. But holy cow its pacing is all over the map. Far too often for my liking things grind to a halt while various characters sit around and have longwinded expository conversations. Stuff that the reader is already aware of through POV changes gets exhaustively reiterated to other characters later on. As great as Wolfe is, this is my least favorite work of his that I've read so far.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2020 03:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 11:43 |
|
|
I tend to agree, but Long Sun has some ardent defenders. Maybe I'd like it more on a reread, but I'm in no hurry. That said it's absolutely worth it for Short Sun, which is amazing but complete nonsense if you don't finish Exodus.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2020 04:17
|
|