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The Andalite Chronicles-Chapter 6quote:<Okay, this part is a little tricky,> I told Loren and Chapman. We were moving from the central shaft out onto the dome floor. There’s a ninety-degree gravity change at that point. I mean,“down” in the main shaft is a different direction from “down” on the dome floor. It’s confusing at first. Elfangor, trying to deal with the concepts of "mouths", "cooking", and "carnivorous" all at once. quote:In any case, I was relieved when Loren interrupted Chapman’s gruesome story to ask,“Do you mind if I take my shoes off? We’ve been cooped up in that Skritchy Nose flying saucer. It’d be nice to walk on the grass.” This will probably come up more later, but I don't really like this treatment of Chapman. We don't really know much about the human Chapman, because by the time we meet him, he already has a Controller in him. All we really know about him is, first, he's sacrificed his humanity to protect his daughter, and second, he finds Marco annoying, which, if were I in charge of discipline at a middle school, seems fair. While the human Chapman may be a nasty person, there's no real evidence of that, and the fact that he's willing to go as far as he did to protect his daughter suggests the capability for self sacrifice. So why make him antagonistic here? Obviously, he's a good deal older in the main books than he is here, and people grow, mature, and change. But still, it seems kind of gratuitous? Chapter 7 quote:<What? WHAT? Leave the ship?!> I screeched. <What do you mean, leave the ship?!> Nice touch there. quote:<Well, forget it. Come on. We move out immediately. We’re supposed to meet up with our commander for this mission.> If you don't remember, we met Alloran in book 8, when he asked Ax to kill him and he couldn't. He's Visser Three's host in the present. quote:Both my hearts sank into my hooves. Alloran. Alloran, the disgraced. So this mission was definitely not a reward from the captain. Alloran had once been a great warrior and prince. But he had been disgraced. I didn’t know why. No one talked about it. Everyone just knew that Alloran had So that's Prince Alloran. As you can see, he's got that contempt that Elfangor mentioned before for the idea that a warrior should be skills other than fighting. He also...does not seem all that fond of the current government and the way it's handling the war.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 02:53 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 20:28 |
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I remember reading this as a kid and thinking the andalites were dumb for not knowing of any species with clothing. Like it’s Impossible to me that humans are the only species that uses fabric like that. But in retrospect it is better than all alien species being humanoids that are very similar to humans.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 03:17 |
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I'm fine with the way Chapman is here. It seems like he's at the exact age when you assume all authority figures are dumber than you and you absolutely have to inform them of this.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 05:29 |
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Fritzler posted:I remember reading this as a kid and thinking the andalites were dumb for not knowing of any species with clothing. Like it’s Impossible to me that humans are the only species that uses fabric like that. But in retrospect it is better than all alien species being humanoids that are very similar to humans. Yeah, even if they don't need clothing, I can't help but think that they'd surely have cloth or something similar for other reasons. Did they never invent backpacks or saddlebags? Belts to hang things off of?
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 06:08 |
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Epicurius posted:
Big finale spoiler: Elfangor turns out to be a great hero, of course, but not quite this great. Ax, on the other hand... Fritzler posted:I remember reading this as a kid and thinking the andalites were dumb for not knowing of any species with clothing. Like it’s Impossible to me that humans are the only species that uses fabric like that. But in retrospect it is better than all alien species being humanoids that are very similar to humans. You'd think Andalites would have had to have a plan for EVA in the early days of space travel, or would at least have some kind of pressure suit available for situations where they lose atmosphere.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 06:39 |
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Remember, too that these books don't have omniscient narrators. Elfangor and Arbron are young military cadets who grew up in a society convinced of its own cultural superiority, on a planet where civilization only exists in the planet's temperate zones, and with personal technology (like morphing tech and automatic translation) that appears to all be nanotech. Are there alien species out there that wear clothing? Did Andalites in their first journeys into space wear protective clothing and tool belts? Maybe. That doesn't mean that they'd be aware of it. They're not historians or exoanthropologists.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 07:04 |
I have some thoughts on Alloran, but I'll save them for when we know him better.
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 07:09 |
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Is it just me or does the description of Alloran's ship sound suspiciously like the blade ship? I also just had a thought about the Ax saying Andalites invented the computer before the book. Maybe the issue is that the Andalites didn't have paper. Paper on Earth has been made from a variety of different plants that are processed into the resulting material, and paper is what makes books possible. With the Andalite homeworld apparently having far less ecological diversity than Earth, perhaps they simply didn't have plants that could be made into paper, and so missed that entire avenue of technology. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Nov 15, 2020 |
# ? Nov 15, 2020 14:29 |
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To spoil a later book (don't recommend unless you know the series I guess) the andalites' evolution and technological development was pretty heavily messed around with in order to use them as proxies in the eternal hellwar
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# ? Nov 15, 2020 15:11 |
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The Andalite Chronicles-Chapter 8quote:It was a long, boring trip. We came out of Zero-space halfway between the orbits of Earth and a planet Loren called Mars. In a lot of ways, that's one of the themes of the series, I think. And Alloran knows PTSD. quote:Alloran turned his stalk eyes back to the helm, and said nothing more. Chapman shrugged, but I could see he was intrigued by Alloran. I'm sure that would go well. quote:<Okay. That’s it. That’s it. Elfangor!> It was Arbron. He’d been totally absorbed in staring at the computer display. He’d barely spoken for the last two days. So, now they have a quest! To find the Time Matrix, originally hidden under a pyramid. Chapter 9 quote:Arbron and I tore that Skrit Na computer download apart. And before we translated into Zerospace we had a destination in mind. One of the last places in the universe that any sensible Andalite would ever want to go. Chapman, making friends. quote:I shot a glance at Arbron. He was as surprised as I was. Alloran had been there at the loss of the Hork-Bajir world? No real comments tonight, but does anyone have any thoughts about this?
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 01:14 |
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Now that we've reached this point I think the characterization of Chapman is fair. He's under a lot of stress, and instead of just being stupidly antagonistic he's bringing up good and insightful points, almost like a Cordelia if we're talking Buffy. I still think it was a bit much in the earlier chapters though. Spoilers for the end of the series: We don't ever find out what happens to Chapman after the thing with Erek, do we? Is he on the Blade Ship at the end?
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 01:44 |
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I'm with you (EDIT: but less so with Rochallor, it seems!), I've never really liked this characterization of Chapman. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with having him be the more antagonistic of the two humans, and I think, done right, it could have fleshed out the Chapman we know a little better, by giving him a cynical, snarky (Marco-like?) side that's since been suppressed by his Yeerk. But the book goes too far and just makes him a loudmouthed rear end in a top hat with nothing really in common with main-series Chapman. So, instead of fleshing him out, it doesn't even seem like the same character.Rochallor posted:Spoilers for the end of the series: We don't ever find out what happens to Chapman after the thing with Erek, do we? Is he on the Blade Ship at the end? Same spoiler: no, nothing is mentioned about him or Melissa. Presumably he survives the battle, since Erek cooperates to a point, but he's not mentioned again after that. disaster pastor fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Nov 16, 2020 |
# ? Nov 16, 2020 01:52 |
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I agree that it seems wrong. It feels like Applegate wanted one of the human abductees to be a shades-of-grey antagonist, but the publishers pushed her to make it a recognisable character from the main series in order to help tie this book in with the main series; this was after all the first of them, and they already felt nervous about its prospects enough to split it into three books. Re: Elfangor's dad having being been in the military during a time of peace and Loren's dad apparently being a Vietnam vet, does that pin down the timeline a bit more for the Yeerk-Andalite war overall? I guess this must be the 1980s if Loren's in her early teens? The only other definite anchor I remember is in Visser, when it's established the first Yeerk scouts arrived on Earth during the Gulf War. And I feel like a definitely remember a scene - don't remember which book it's in - when an Andalite character is remembering the immediate aftermath of Seerow's kindness, right on the Yeerk home world after some Ged-controllers steal Andalite ships. Also - Elfangor being bemused that humans fight wars among themselves just raises further questions about the history of Andalite warrior culture!
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 03:48 |
Elfangor's reaction is incredibly accurate. Anyone who doesn't feel a sick dread at an emergency situation is a loving dangerous fool.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 04:12 |
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freebooter posted:
Warning...spoilers on dates and events in books We know this book takes place 21 years before the series. If we assume the events of the books books start in 1997, which is when the first book is published, then it would be 1976. In the Hork-Bajir Chronicles, we find out that the Yeerk attack on the Andalites/theft of the Andalite ships took place in 1966, and the conquest of the Hork-Bajir took place in 1968. Edriss and Essam discover earth during the Gulf War.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 04:33 |
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<I guess I’m not very funny.> A very dry sense of humour seems to run in the family... freebooter posted:Also - Elfangor being bemused that humans fight wars among themselves just raises further questions about the history of Andalite warrior culture! That's another good point. Maybe it was mostly a ceremonial thing for a few centuries, and the Andalite zeal for battling Yeerks is at least partially due to the warrior caste being excited at the prospect of actually having something to do. I wish I could shake the feeling I'm discussing 90's kid's book lore with former Prime Minister Malcolm B. Turnbull
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 04:41 |
I can also absolutely see the Andalites whitewashing the hell out of their NOBLE WARRIORS who would never kill an Andalite, which also squares with Alloran's disgust towards the council.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 04:45 |
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freebooter posted:Also - Elfangor being bemused that humans fight wars among themselves just raises further questions about the history of Andalite warrior culture! I don't know that Elfangor does seem particularly bemused by it. I think the "You don't have space travel, so who do you fight?" question comes from the fact that Andalites seem to have a worldwide government, and he doesn't realize humans, who he's never encountered before, don't. After Chapman tells him that the humans fight each other, Elfangor and the other Andalites don't seem particularly shocked or horrified by the concept.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 05:04 |
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Tree Bucket posted:I wish I could shake the feeling I'm discussing 90's kid's book lore with former Prime Minister Malcolm B. Turnbull Yes, this is he
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 05:06 |
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Epicurius posted:I don't know that Elfangor does seem particularly bemused by it. I think the "You don't have space travel, so who do you fight?" question comes from the fact that Andalites seem to have a worldwide government, and he doesn't realize humans, who he's never encountered before, don't. After Chapman tells him that the humans fight each other, Elfangor and the other Andalites don't seem particularly shocked or horrified by the concept. Yeah fair enough. My other line of thinking is that - since I think Ax mentions humans have an unusually fast technological curve back in book 8 - they genuinely never did fight among themselves (which doesn't seem impossible, since I they're herd animal herbivores compared to humans' chimp ancestors battling over limited resources) but have been spacefaring for hundreds of years and have fought wars against other species before, but the Yeerks are the first war in living memory.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 05:09 |
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freebooter posted:Yeah fair enough. My other line of thinking is that - since I think Ax mentions humans have an unusually fast technological curve back in book 8 - they genuinely never did fight among themselves (which doesn't seem impossible, since I they're herd animal herbivores compared to humans' chimp ancestors battling over limited resources) but have been spacefaring for hundreds of years and have fought wars against other species before, but the Yeerks are the first war in living memory. This is my take, the Andalites have fought wars against each other, but the Yeerk war is the first in a long time, after Andalite culture had settled into pacifism. On the other hand, I could also easily see the Andalite warrior caste as being very myopic and culturally isolated, that there have been internal Andalite wars in living memory but the warrior caste decided they didn't count as proper wars for whatever reason. I think this series has been quietly leaning hard into the idea that there's a serious disconnect between the Andalite military and the Andalite civilian culture. I still don't think we've met an Andalite civilian. Or an Andalite woman.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 13:21 |
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Andalite wars seem unlikely to me because A) they've had a one world government for a while and B) any disputes seem much more likely to be resolved by a duel between heads of state rather than a war
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 14:53 |
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But that just raises more questions! How have they been able to maintain their incredibly smug warrior culture for so long with no actual war? Surely honour duels can only get you so far before the whole soldier caste becomes foppish and aristocratic? And the Andalites are quite the opposite of foppish, if older soldiers like Alloran are anything to go by. He and others imply that the 'poet' half of warrior poet is being forced on them by the civilian government to make war more paletable.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 17:12 |
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I think there must have been some other interstellar wars that Andalites fought before the Yeerks. They’ve done enough travel through space to come across plenty of other species of varying physiology and philosophy. It’s not too outlandish to think they’ve had other wars against foes that didn’t approach conflict with the same secret invasion strategy as yeerks need to use. It would explain why there’s a strong, active warrior culture going back at least a couple of generations. And after all, they developed morphing tech for some reason, and it wasn’t for battle. Is it made clear if Andalites, Yeerks, Taxxons, Hork Bajir, Pemalites/Chee, Skrit Na, and the other critters that show up throughout the series are all meant to be native to the Milky Way galaxy? I can’t remember what they said about how far away the Andalite command is, and Zero space travel could work however the authors want for story purposes. I do seem to recall that the Ellimist, at least, originated in another galaxy and spreads across the universe throughout its development.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 17:41 |
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feetnotes posted:Is it made clear if Andalites, Yeerks, Taxxons, Hork Bajir, Pemalites/Chee, Skrit Na, and the other critters that show up throughout the series are all meant to be native to the Milky Way galaxy? I can’t remember what they said about how far away the Andalite command is, and Zero space travel could work however the authors want for story purposes. I believe the Ellimist is from this galaxy, along with almost all of the other species we see. The Ellimist specifically says Crayak came from outside the galaxy, chased out of his previous galaxy by something even more powerful.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 17:49 |
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Everybody we meet in this series is from our galaxy with the exception of Crayak, and the Andalite, Yeerk, Taxxon and Hork-Bajir homeworlds are, as I understand it, fairly close to earth on a galactic scale, which is why this war has spilled over to Earth. Galaxies are just big. Also, regarding the Andalites and recent wars, in addition to whatever wars they may have fought, the fact that the Andalites stopped the Skrit Na ship to search for contraband suggests that they've set themselves up as sort of galactic policemen/peacekeepers. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Nov 16, 2020 |
# ? Nov 16, 2020 19:04 |
Strategic Tea posted:But that just raises more questions! How have they been able to maintain their incredibly smug warrior culture for so long with no actual war? Surely honour duels can only get you so far before the whole soldier caste becomes foppish and aristocratic? I think Alloran and Ax are pretty good examples of either sides of the spectrum. It is also very clear that Alloran is an aberration, probably even considered an abomination by most Andalite standards. I still genuinely think he isn't wrong.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 21:15 |
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Epicurius posted:Also, regarding the Andalites and recent wars, in addition to whatever wars they may have fought, the fact that the Andalites stopped the Skrit Na ship to search for contraband suggests that they've set themselves up as sort of galactic policemen/peacekeepers. I always sort of saw the Andalites as a stand-in for modern US imperial power.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 23:03 |
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freebooter posted:I always sort of saw the Andalites as a stand-in for modern US imperial power. The Andalites are very much a stand in for the modern US, I think, and I think that's something to talk about both in this book and future ones.
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 23:17 |
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<Oorah>
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# ? Nov 16, 2020 23:47 |
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Epicurius posted:The Andalites are very much a stand in for the modern US, I think, and I think that's something to talk about both in this book and future ones. They definitely have a "World Police" vibe, which is fitting for when these books were written—especially considering (late book spoilers) their willingness to kill innocent aliens to achieve their objectives in winning the war.
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 01:58 |
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The Andalite Chronicles-Chapter 10quote:Down to the Taxxon world! So, this is pretty much just Elfangor putting the good of the mission ahead of his own glory here. He wants to be the one to take the shot, he wants to be the big drat hero, but he knows Arbron has a better chance than he does. quote:Alloran nodded. <Let’s see what you can do, Aristh Arbron. We need to hit one engine, but leave the other functioning. And we don’t want any unfortunate explosions.> There's got to be something horrible about being a Taxxon. The idea that you're always hungry, that no matter how much you can eat, that hunger will never be satisfied, is just horrific. And it's so strong an impulse that not even Yeerks can stop it. Just to live like that, day after day, knowing that you'll ALWAYS be hungry. They may disgust the Andalites, but in a lot of ways, I just feel sorry for them. quote:<All right!> Arbron cried. <We got ‘em!> So that's Elfangor's first battle. And he's good at it!. But this is also, in a way, the loss of his innocence. And I think Alloran's grim nod is recognizing that. People may disagree, but I sort of get the impression Alloran sees the way he used to be in Elfangor. Chapter 11 quote:I shook myself free of Loren, appalled and ashamed by my behavior. What was the matter with me? I was behaving like a child, not an aristh. Is this a violation of Seerow's Kindness? I don't know. quote:Loren took the shredder from me and slipped it under her shirt. “Listen … good luck down on the planet. Whatever you’re doing down there.” I always wonder....Both Ax and Elfangor can fly Taxxon ships without trouble, but I sort of wonder about that. Taxxons have a lot of little hands, You'd think that, not only would their controls be smaller, so as to be comfortable for them, but they'd also require more hands to fly than controls made for two handed people, like Andalites and us. If a Taxxon is going to be flying the ship, why not optimize the controls for four or six handed flight? quote:<These humans are a pain in the hindquarters,> Arbron said. <As if we don’t have enough trouble? We have to watch over a pair of primitive aliens?> So, I guess we're going to experience Taxxon hunger first hand?
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 02:22 |
Acebuckeye13 posted:They definitely have a "World Police" vibe, which is fitting for when these books were written—especially considering (late book spoilers) their willingness to kill innocent aliens to achieve their objectives in winning the war. See, even they agree with me. Alloran did nothing wrong.
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 02:50 |
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It's honestly really tough reading about Alloran and growing fond of him, all while knowing that he is going to be hosting Visser Three eventually. On another note, it's interesting how this series handles identity. Hosts, morphs, and now Elfangor's battle fury... the nature of the mind/body distinction gets really thoroughly explored here. Strategic Tea posted:<Oorah> That's a lol
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 03:49 |
And FWIW, I always read that nod by Alloran as 'Yeah. He can fight.' Which, given his attitude towards them previously...
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 04:02 |
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Tree Bucket posted:On another note, it's interesting how this series handles identity. Hosts, morphs, and now Elfangor's battle fury... the nature of the mind/body distinction gets really thoroughly explored here. Kind of a shame this was the 90s, or it would be really fertile grounds to explore a transgender or genderfluid character. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Applegate snuck that in there after I stopped reading the books.
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 04:08 |
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Cythereal posted:Kind of a shame this was the 90s, or it would be really fertile grounds to explore a transgender or genderfluid character. I've never read Animorphs fanfic but I have to assume this is a major theme in that community. Right?
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 04:33 |
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I'd also be interested in seeing how many Animorphs kids refused to become Harry Potter kids!
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 04:39 |
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Tree Bucket posted:I'd also be interested in seeing how many Animorphs kids refused to become Harry Potter kids! I liked both as a kid, but have found this series infinitely more complex and rewarding on revisit. Doesn't hurt that both JKR herself, and the level of milquetoast liberal Harry Politics stuff in the zeitgeist, have put me off the IP completely and permanently. Meanwhile, war is still bad, brains and the concept of self and sentience are still fascinating, and aliens and animals and space and cinnamon bunz-uh are still fuckin cool as hell. Despite being much more firmly set in a specific time period, or perhaps because of it, this series has aged much better in my opinion.
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 06:16 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 20:28 |
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I think it's hard now to talk about Harry Potter as a piece of literature, because while you certainly can separate a piece of art from the artist, Rowling's recent very public anti-trans statements has caused a pretty major reevaluation of the books by former fans of them and hers. So, because we're so close to it, it's very hard for people to go back to before and evaluate the books outside of Rowling's acts and opinions. There's also the question of Harry Potter the books vs Harry Potter the phenomenon. In a lot of ways, the Animorph books delved deeper into a lot of important themes than the Harry Potter books. Of course, part of that was that there were 7 Harry Potter books and over 50 Animorph books, so you could have a book that dealt with divorce, or PTSD, or parental abandonment, or drug abuse, or the morality of war, etc. The difference was, Harry Potter was telling one really long story, and Animorphs was telling a lot of really short stories. And, while we haven't gotten to them yet, there were a bunch of Animorph books that just didn't work at all. But Animorphs could get away with some bad books, because there were so many of them, the same way you don't mind one uncooked kernel of popcorn in your bag (or, if you're Ax, savor the taste and texture of that kernel), As far as the phenomenon of Harry Potter, the books were certainly a bigger deal than the Animorph books. They were long, a lot longer than a lot of young adult fiction. They were a major crossover hit, with not just kids enjoying them but their parents too. Rowling had a feel good personal story that the media loved...when she wrote the first book, she was a mother on welfare, having divorced her husband after he abused her, and then she became a big success. There were the big book parties on release night, where bookstores had kids and their parents lining up to buy the books, and a kind of carnival atmosphere, with events and costumes and all that. That's why it got 8 movies, while Animorphs got a low budget Canadian tv series. Because of all this, I think it's hard to look at and analyze the Harry Potter books right now as books. But maybe that's just me.
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# ? Nov 17, 2020 06:45 |