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forkboy84 posted:Wow, you don't dig up your nan's grave & hold her hand? Outrageous. Mostly agree, actually. Except about the BBC. I will have a hard time accepting that the state of human rights here is comparable to Iran. Re changing minds discussed a few pages up, it’s hard when one has years of conditioning to get through. Plus when one starts questioning one’s beliefs where there was formerly certainty, it can be very destabilising. (I am speaking from current experience). I don’t know what I think of Corbyn now, where i previously did, and it’s uncomfortable. Add to that the feeling that if this belief is wrong, what else might be wrong, and it’s easy to see why people resist changing their minds. Change one thing and the whole edifice can collapse. My using “one” instead of you probably comes across as pretentious, and it probably is, but it’s correct, and more importantly, I like it. So gently caress you.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:07
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"Change you thing and the whole edifice can collapse." is definitely not correct.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:09
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therattle posted:Not bowing low enough is bullshit. What he was wearing isn't. Unfortunately, image matters in politics. I think he misjudged. It isn't about how expensive it was, it is how it looked. Nobody would have cared if it was a £79 black overcoat from M&S, because nobody would have bothered to check, because it would not have drawn attention to itself. If you are going to pay respects, dress respectfully. Corbyn's coat-gate: he was either going straight on or had come straight from an open air memorial ceremony in Islington and it was raining. Also, as he always took time after the cenotaph ceremonies to stick around and talk to the veterans instead of rushing off to feed his face on publicly funded sarnies it was a sensible thing to wear. IIRC the press couldn't make up their mind whether it was a scruffy coat or a champagne-socialist M&S £79 coat. There was the year he wore the ceramic poppy which undoubtedly cost significantly more than the paper ones and the press started whining it was 'too small' while I think it was the same year photos of Rees-Mogg wearing his poppy practically pinned to his flies went unremarked. Whatever Corbyn had done, 'they' would have found a reason to criticize. Remember the 'dancing Corbyn' where someone edited out the fact that he was walking down the street talking to a veteran and made it look like he was dancing? Rees-Mogg dissing the Poppy  So-called Dancing Corbyn:  Corbyn as a politician: I worked in the NHS (non-medical role) in a Health Authority which included his constituency for a decade. He was (is) a bloody good constituency MP based on the amount he upset my boss because he was persistant, dogged, concerned for those being overlooked in the grand plans and so on. One of the reasons I admired him was the amount of time my boss came into meetings complaining about 'bloody Corbyn'. The reason he didn't manage to come across as a great leader is because (a) to be a good leader, you need people who actually want to be lead and the PLP made it quite clear they didn't and (b) you need to change your view of leaders as autocrats. Unless you have got police/military backing and are willing to lead by absolute fear, then you cannot lead those who do not wish to be lead. Leadership is a 'deal' between the leader and the lead. It became quite clear to me that the PLP are a raving bunch of bullies and that was one of the reasons I had 99.9% decided to leave the party just before GE19 was called - I only stuck around because of not wanting to let the local CLP down given the roles I fulfilled and also - well, you never know! However, I was of the opinion that had labour won the election under Corbyn, the PLP would have got their feet under the table, started receiving their fat salaries (bear in mind they are paid more than something like 95% of the population let alone the expenses they can claim for things normal people have to pay for out of their incomes), and would then have done a mass defection to whatever the latest incarnation of the FKTIGS was. Also, too many people are taken in by a nice suit and slick presentation. I guess this was thrashed out of me during my PhD studies - we were trained to be significantly more wary of anything presented in a slick manner as it 'usually means someone is trying to cover something up'. The more illegibly small font and multi-column times new roman your presentation, the more seriously you were taken. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 01:10
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forkboy84 posted:
There's no way he ever would have been allowed to win. If he had purged the party, capital would have made absolutely sure that the libs became the new opposition. This just isn't fight that can be won via electoralism. Corbyn proved that once and for all in a way that wouldn't have been so clear if he'd fought dirty. The real war can start now.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:26
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mandatory reselection is a longstanding totem of the Labour left since the 1970s when the CLPD was founded, but it isn't really clear that it is factionally reliable any more than OMOV has been for the Labour right during the period reselection was a party process - from 1981 to 1993 - the party continued to slide unstoppably rightward, Militant was wholly crushed, and right-wing Labour MPs continued to be selected. It certainly compelled MPs on shaky ground to pay more attention to the local party membership, but such work has never been a driver for ideological change writ large. The right could machine CLP General Committee votes as well as the left, there was never any permanently left-wing advantage in committee delegate judo (any more than OMOV has been permanently right-wing). it is not difficult to sketch why this might have been the case: bulk of the party membership is not the right (new or old), or the hard left, but the soft left or factionally disengaged. It is of course difficult to deselect the right-wing MPs in right-leaning 'safe' CLPs. The 'swingable' CLPs are the locus of the most bitter, public scrapfights, which would mainly threaten soft/wet MPs. The Labour right always struggled to convince the party that the hard left presented any kind of existential threat to the party, but now they didn't need to. And that's how a Tribune Group MP like Kinnock gets on the great moving right show - because the hard left faction can no longer be genially tolerated in nominating a few Keep Left MPs as long they don't do anything too outré, but must be actively extirpated from the party Labour under Corbyn seemed to suggest a realignment, with a pro-Corbyn wave of membership and, unusually, also the unions and affiliated societies (which would have thoroughly dominated both a delegate vote and OMOV, anyway). And yet the bar remains high. Kate Hoey was successfully pushed to resigning, but e.g. Margaret Hodge, longtime thread favourite, survived reselection Corbyn-period reforms to the trigger process remain in place, so presumably ballots will continue to be triggered more often. Clinically speaking the Labour right seems to be now betting on shoring up OMOV by embracing proportional OMOV, which could be... interesting...? if applied at an MP level (one assumes that it would ride on the Regional Labour Party/REC hierarchy)
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Nov 17, 2020 01:27
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therattle posted:ronya made a post a few days ago contrasting McDonnell's and Corbyn's responses to a similar issue (IRA, I believe). McDonnell played it more carefully; Corbyn didn't give a poo poo how he was perceived, despite knowing that his perspective was unpopular. I believe ronya's point was that the journalist interviewing Corbyn was going to slam him with a stupid reductive attack anyway, but Corbyn should have chosen the attack of "Corbyn condemns his own remarks from 40 years ago!!" to "Corbyn refuses to condemn IRA terrorist murder-bombs!!" because the former is slightly more palatable to the typical English voter. specifically, though, there wasn't a way for Corbyn to "look good" or avoid giving the press ammunition to use against him, because press attacks aren't based on facts - as others itt have illustrated, quite literally
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Nov 17, 2020 01:28
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Corbyn was undoubtedly absolutely ratfucked by his own party but I remain convinced that if he'd ignored the EU supergirl libs and embraced Brexit he'd have won in 2019. The smear campaign is an easy thing to point at and blame but despite what the commentariat want us to believe very few people who weren't already firmly anti-Corbyn were convinced by it. It didn't help, obviously, but it wasn't the decisive factor. Labour's Brexit policy was utterly confused throughout, though, and that was the hot button issue. I think the difficulty here was tension between his own Euroscepticism + desire to adopt a winning electoral strategy and his commitment to grassroots party democracy, especially given the overwhelmingly pro-EU Labour membership. That put him between a rock and a hard place. Given his democratic idealism though I have no idea why he didn't take the opportunity to defang the PLP by handing way more power back to the grassroots when he had total control of the NEC. That seems like a huge oversight. In any case, we can criticise his strategy but the guy deserves boundless respect for the sheer bloody minded resilience he displayed despite everything. It was superhuman.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:54
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I dunno, the libs seem like a paper tiger in retrospect but they did manage to get the tories into some seats, and I don't know that he could have known how absolutely disasterous jo swinson's campaign would be.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:57
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Lt. Danger posted:I believe ronya's point was that the journalist interviewing Corbyn was going to slam him with a stupid reductive attack anyway, but Corbyn should have chosen the attack of "Corbyn condemns his own remarks from 40 years ago!!" to "Corbyn refuses to condemn IRA terrorist murder-bombs!!" because the former is slightly more palatable to the typical English voter. specifically, though, there wasn't a way for Corbyn to "look good" or avoid giving the press ammunition to use against him, because press attacks aren't based on facts - as others itt have illustrated, quite literally yeah. Corbyn would have been monstered anyway. Gordon Brown as Leader got slammed for not bowing at the Cenotaph too (wider context was the Afghanistan 'surge' in 2009, which Brown was reluctant to support). The idea of media management is not to remove those messages, which is impossible, but trying to reduce their efficacy by not feeding the narrative. I don't think anorakgate could have been avoided, as an incident - there's always something. The real damage is done when these are paired with old skeletons pulled from closets, which Corbyn doesn't walk back because he's Corbyn and that's just how he rolls - when both Corbyn and the Daily Mail are happy to reiterate his stance on e.g. assorted wars. The scruffy anorak is merely an advertising opportunity to reinforce a toxic message. Labour Governments are not formed on acclamation but ~45% of the vote, if they're really lucky - it's a given that a wide swathe of the country will have pulled the lever for the Conservatives even in the biggest Labour landslides, and of that fraction, there'll be a loud group that is thoroughly convinced the Labour leader of the day is a power-mad loony. One does not set out to convince those people, any more than Boris Johnson would see any hope in addressing your local communist reading group. To be clear, it's not "never confront the media" - some red lines are worth fighting for. But of course something must actually be fought for. If one drags the party through the whole brouhaha in order to refight media narratives over the Irish peace process, well, that's probably not the worth the tradeoff.
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Nov 17, 2020 01:57
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therattle posted:It's both. His treatment by the media was awful. I don't think he did much to help himself. You can think that it wouldn't have mattered. I get that. I just don't agree. That's not an awful opinion to hold. If he wore an expensive coat he'd have been derided as a champagne socialist, out of touch with the common man for spending [x ridiculous sum of money] on his coat and hence being disrespectful to are brave boys. therattle posted:Despite my prejudice I really wanted Labour to win in 2017 and 2019, and part of my disappointment in him is that he did not play the game a bit to make that possible. We can differ on whether it would have done anything. You cannot "play the game" enough to get to the point where the entire country's media, being owned by Tories/Tory donors, will allow a socialist to win an election. That is the very simple fact you have to get your head around. Ed Milliband was too left wing for these people. Should Ed not have eaten the bacon sandwich, in your estimation? (This is rhetorical, I would rather you didn't answer because I also don't care.) Honestly I'm fine with you saying Corbyn was a bad leader. In hindsight I agree - he should have been more ruthless in dealing with all of the cunts surrounding him, but the things you are criticising just show that you've bought into the right-wing media's narratives with no regard for the facts of the man. Whether he was a good leader of the Labour party or not, his principles were and are sound, as were his policies - and that's why they had to attack a) His strengths, and b) Things which were just absolute bullshit - and that's what you've bought into. And myself and others are going to point that out when you do it... or eventually I'll just stick you on my ignore list and encourage others to do the same. Jaeluni Asjil posted:Corbyn's coat-gate: he was either going straight on or had come straight from an open air memorial ceremony in Islington and it was raining. Also, as he always took time after the cenotaph ceremonies to stick around and talk to the veterans instead of rushing off to feed his face on publicly funded sarnies it was a sensible thing to wear. IIRC the press couldn't make up their mind whether it was a scruffy coat or a champagne-socialist M&S £79 coat. This is a good post on all fronts. Disnesquick posted:There's no way he ever would have been allowed to win. If he had purged the party, capital would have made absolutely sure that the libs became the new opposition. Also correct. WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 01:58
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ThomasPaine posted:Corbyn was undoubtedly absolutely ratfucked by his own party but I remain convinced that if he'd ignored the EU supergirl libs and embraced Brexit he'd have won in 2019. The smear campaign is an easy thing to point at and blame but despite what the commentariat want us to believe very few people who weren't already firmly anti-Corbyn were convinced by it. It didn't help, obviously, but it wasn't the decisive factor. Labour's Brexit policy was utterly confused throughout, though, and that was the hot button issue. I think the difficulty here was tension between his own Euroscepticism + desire to adopt a winning electoral strategy and his commitment to grassroots party democracy, especially given the overwhelmingly pro-EU Labour membership. That put him between a rock and a hard place. Given his democratic idealism though I have no idea why he didn't take the opportunity to defang the PLP by handing way more power back to the grassroots when he had total control of the NEC. That seems like a huge oversight. Yes I think it was the panicked (or calculated) move to do a second referendum that probably did a good proportion of the damage for labour. Just about everyone I know from either remain or leave camp just wanted it over and done with. I also had a heated discussion with one of my brothers who is more left than me and would normally have voted labour under Corbyn, but extremely pro EU and who voted libdem because they were the party promising to stop 'leave' even though there wasn't a chance in hell of that happening and a leave agreement under someone who actually cares about people instead of the self-serving, personal wallet-stuffing tories would have been the best chance. The smears did have a big effect too though especially the ones which might hit the pockets of the >£80k earners (never could figure out why people in a country where the median income is under £30k and where only 5% of people earn more than £80k seemed to think labour was coming for their wallets, I do not know.) And the purported 'anti-military, pro-terror' smears. I don't think most people gave a poo poo about anti-semitism allegations, I doubt half the country even knows what that is. But it was just another 'nasty smell about corbyn'.
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Nov 17, 2020 02:01
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ThomasPaine posted:Corbyn was undoubtedly absolutely ratfucked by his own party but I remain convinced that if he'd ignored the EU supergirl libs and embraced Brexit he'd have won in 2019. The smear campaign is an easy thing to point at and blame but despite what the commentariat want us to believe very few people who weren't already firmly anti-Corbyn were convinced by it. It didn't help, obviously, but it wasn't the decisive factor. Labour's Brexit policy was utterly confused throughout, though, and that was the hot button issue. I think the difficulty here was tension between his own Euroscepticism + desire to adopt a winning electoral strategy and his commitment to grassroots party democracy, especially given the overwhelmingly pro-EU Labour membership. That put him between a rock and a hard place. Given his democratic idealism though I have no idea why he didn't take the opportunity to defang the PLP by handing way more power back to the grassroots when he had total control of the NEC. That seems like a huge oversight. the goss seems to suggest that tactically a big chunk of the party leadership really believed post-2017 narratives that people don't care about Brexit and care about cuts to local services, and assumed this would continue to be true even as the deadline loomed the other chunk really believed that hyper-cautious triangulation wot won it we're talking Corbyn loyalists here, not the PLP given the two, Corbyn was never really going to embrace Brexit - the choices were between continued triangulation or continued triangulation with a different messaging. Neither would have risked allowing the party membership to force an unambiguously pro-EU position either
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Nov 17, 2020 02:10
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Yes I think it was the panicked (or calculated) move to do a second referendum that probably did a good proportion of the damage for labour. The antisemitism stuff is basically a shibboleth to allow the Liberals to attack minorities and the young whilst feeling like they are the good guys. When the only thing holding them back was their own self-perception of being on the Right Side Of History, providing a band-aid for just that was a winning move.
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Nov 17, 2020 02:14
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Disnesquick posted:The antisemitism stuff is basically a shibboleth to allow the Liberals to attack minorities and the young whilst feeling like they are the good guys. When the only thing holding them back was their own self-perception of being on the Right Side Of History, providing a band-aid for just that was a winning move. Yeah, it's 100% this. The real strategic genius of the anti-semitism attacks was that they provided plausible deniability for the 'sensible centrists' to distance themselves from and undermine somebody who you'd think they'd be supporting, if their supposed principles and values were genuine. The general public were always very much less interested in the anti-semitism angle.
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Nov 17, 2020 08:17
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Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious.
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Nov 17, 2020 08:32
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. Restore the Heptarchy
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Nov 17, 2020 08:34
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. For the moment, at least, it's little more than a gag.
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Nov 17, 2020 08:51
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Well, we have a Prime Minister so unfathomably stupid that he might will it into being
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Nov 17, 2020 09:18
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. I like the principle of the thing and however likely it is to have the North become an independent country anytime soon, I'd rather vote for them over anyone else at the moment
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Nov 17, 2020 09:29
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ThomasPaine posted:Corbyn was undoubtedly absolutely ratfucked by his own party but I remain convinced that if he'd ignored the EU supergirl libs and embraced Brexit he'd have won in 2019. The EU is currently proving itself to be a complete loving joke, Poland and Hungary have voted down the Covid stimulus because it requires beneficiaries to adhere to the rule of law, which is a bridge too far for them, and the EU is busy thinking up creative ways to tolerate fascism rather than expelling them. The correct thing to do was always to say we'll do a better Brexit than the Tories and massively invest in infrastructure, probably throw in a few jokes about how they're the 'enemy'. "Mr. Corbyn, is is true that you'll scrap Trident?" "Depends on what Brussels are doing, we might need it  "What are the Brexit Party going to do to outflank that?
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Nov 17, 2020 09:44
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Marmaduke! posted:Well, we have a Prime Minister so unfathomably stupid that he might will it into being The black hole of jeering contempt caused by London's entire political and media class simultaneously going: "Heh! Those stupid, backward Northeners! Just imagine them attempting to set up a political party - what a ludicrous farce that'll be! Why, I bet they'll be putting up spokespeople with regional accents, the hopeless losers!" might very well summon up a genuine Northern independence movement, yes.
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Nov 17, 2020 09:46
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Someone near us has got a Northern Independence flag up and it's the first time I've seen someone flying a flag and given it a nod of approval rather than a snort of contempt. loving flags.
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Nov 17, 2020 09:54
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. They've got my vote for now gently caress it lol
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Nov 17, 2020 10:14
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therattle posted:Mostly agree, actually. Except about the BBC. I will have a hard time accepting that the state of human rights here is comparable to Iran. Iran is more supportive of trans rights, but other than that it's a reasonable comparison. Our government just worships money instead of Allah and murders people for being poor instead of doing crimes.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:17
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Sanford posted:Someone near us has got a Northern Independence flag up and it's the first time I've seen someone flying a flag and given it a nod of approval rather than a snort of contempt. loving flags. My neighbour has two flagpoles on the front of his house, and yet appears to be a reasonable person and not noticeably racist or right wing. Not sure how to feel about that.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:19
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. Well the north of England has a population of around 15 million versus Scotland's 5.5, so if the party takes off it's call for independence would be louder and, given the deprivation the North has suffered under the tories, arguably more genuine than that of Scotland which enjoys higher GDP per capita figures and much better representation with its own devolved government as things currently stand. It will certainly be interesting to see how things go and whilst Scottish claims to independence were recently answered for a generation with a resounding referendum result, the question of the North's independence would be absolutely open to debate and probably one I would support.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:19
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Wolfsbane posted:My neighbour has two flagpoles on the front of his house, and yet appears to be a reasonable person and not noticeably racist or right wing. Not sure how to feel about that. I was talking to my wife about this the other day. On my standard two mile "quick walk" with the dog I pass four flagpoles. If I do the "full walk" of seven miles I pass eleven. I'm sure that never used to be a thing. When we were kids I can remember asking my mum to walk the long way home from school so we could see where Mr Draper had a flag up because it was so unusual. loving flags.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:23
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Presumably Boris will decide, after seeing the interest in the NIP, to consolidate his party's holdings in the Red Wall by opening the issue of Northern independence up to the public as a referendum. This, I'm sure, will end well for him...
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Nov 17, 2020 10:24
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When that northern independence party twitter feed started it was very obviously a joke, has it morphed into an actual thing in the space of 3 weeks?
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Nov 17, 2020 10:25
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Coohoolin posted:Hi everyone, haven't posted in a while. What's the thread's thoughts on the Northern Independence Party? I'm very curious. it's good. uncritical support for the NIP get yourselves a proper webpage with a summary so i don't have to use wikipedia posted:NIP also supports a "green industrial rebirth" and democratic socialist principles. The party is committed to federalism and enhanced local democracy. NIP is firmly anti-racist and opposed to anti-refugee rhetoric in all forms. Instead, it stress Northern traditions of solidarity, tolerance and mutualism.[4]
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Nov 17, 2020 10:26
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therattle posted:Mostly agree, actually. Except about the BBC. I will have a hard time accepting that the state of human rights here is comparable to Iran. UK Politicians, including very serious ones, all seem to love photo ops with Israel, despite Israel's track record being slightly better or slightly worse than Iran's on human rights, depending on what specific incident/minority you're looking at, if that helps you with the cognitive dissonance around 'Iran bad, UK good'. It's a great example of a country that serious politicians love and would gladly give interviews to if it mattered at all except as a stick to beat arab/muslim people with.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:26
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Sanford posted:Someone near us has got a Northern Independence flag up and it's the first time I've seen someone flying a flag and given it a nod of approval rather than a snort of contempt. loving flags. Other good flags include pride, st piran, and the jolly roger
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Nov 17, 2020 10:32
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NotJustANumber99 posted:It will certainly be interesting to see how things go and whilst Scottish claims to independence were recently answered for a generation with a resounding referendum result, the question of the North's independence would be absolutely open to debate and probably one I would support. I think "answered for a generation" and "resounding referendum result" might find some argument north of the border. "Yes" has been steadily gaining in opinion polls since the 2017 GE and has consistently had a small edge the past several months.  There's enough independence for everyone IMO though, dismantle the United Kingdom.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:33
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Well the north of England has a population of around 15 million versus Scotland's 5.5, so if the party takes off it's call for independence would be louder and, given the deprivation the North has suffered under the tories, arguably more genuine than that of Scotland which enjoys higher GDP per capita figures and much better representation with its own devolved government as things currently stand. Lmao thanks for not disappointing with the "independence is bad when it's Scottish but good when it's English" take i fully expected from someone Anyway yeah it seemed to have started as a joke but they're currently fundraising to set up as a party and plan to stand local candidates for the next council elections. If their attention continues to grow I suspect they might go for constituencies as well.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:41
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https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1328625986053795844?s=20
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Nov 17, 2020 10:42
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It seems a bit daft to be honest. Definitions are quite nebulous, but England has existed as unified national polity for what, 1,000 years?
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Nov 17, 2020 10:47
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I hope England shatters into a multitude of permanently warring city states.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:55
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keep punching joe posted:I hope England shatters into a multitude of permanently warring city states. I haven't read or seen it but Mortal Engines sounds like the ideal scenario.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:56
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I clicked that link and saw this incredible twitter exchange: 
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Nov 17, 2020 10:57
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I don't know how serious the NIP really are about independence, but I don't think they're a joke either. If your goal is greater regional autonomy - perhaps the regional assemblies that have been mooted on and off for at least a couple decades - it certainly doesn't hurt to have a more extreme pressure group out there to make lesser measures look like a reasonable compromise.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:59
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