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I've got a koi pond that I'm pretty lukewarm on. At this point it's mostly just a wet hole that's a few feet deep. How dumb would it be to try to DIY convert it into an in-ground hot tub? It wouldn't need to be outfitted with all sorts of fancy jets; a literal tub of hot water akin to those wood-fired ones would be acceptable (although I'd use an electric system). I was thinking of doing some sort of stone/concrete mix and then slathering a seal on it. The existing koi pond is visible in the corner of this photo. 
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Nov 12, 2020 22:11
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luminalflux posted:I had district heating in all my apartments in Stockholm. Fairly instant, abundant hot water at high pressure? Sign me the gently caress up. Here in LA, we've got a gas-fired tankless heater that manages to take 1) 5 minutes to get hot water to the shower 2) run out of hot water somehow??? Oh! I've seen that tunnel, or at least the vents for it and idly wondered what it was for. Did not expect to randomly hear about it here.
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Nov 12, 2020 22:28
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luminalflux posted:I had district heating in all my apartments in Stockholm. Fairly instant, abundant hot water at high pressure? Sign me the gently caress up. Here in LA, we've got a gas-fired tankless heater that manages to take 1) 5 minutes to get hot water to the shower 2) run out of hot water somehow??? Are you sure it's firing when you think it is? If I turn my shower head to its minimum amount, which is basically a dribble that lets it tell California that it uses negative water per minute or whatever, mine turns off as below the flow threshold. When drawing water to your shower, are you blending it with cold water and waiting? Ours takes a solid minute or minute and a half to reach our kitchen due to poor layout and refusal to install a pump on my part. It means my dishwasher is almost certainly using tap-cold water, and any water that gets heated in the interim is purely wasted gas as it probably cools in the pipes waiting for the next cycle.
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Nov 13, 2020 00:34
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Just closed on my first house! Boy, am I hosed, huh
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Nov 13, 2020 00:46
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Just closed on my first house! Boy, am I hosed, huh You are! Congrats anyway!! This thread title is awfully accurate. We disconnected 2 unknown sets of wires from the hall light circuit, only to find out it was to one (1) of the outlets in two separate bedrooms. All the other outlets in the bedrooms are on that rooms light circuit. What the gently caress man.
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Nov 13, 2020 01:59
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H110Hawk posted:Are you sure it's firing when you think it is? If I turn my shower head to its minimum amount, which is basically a dribble that lets it tell California that it uses negative water per minute or whatever, mine turns off as below the flow threshold. When drawing water to your shower, are you blending it with cold water and waiting? Ours takes a solid minute or minute and a half to reach our kitchen due to poor layout and refusal to install a pump on my part. It means my dishwasher is almost certainly using tap-cold water, and any water that gets heated in the interim is purely wasted gas as it probably cools in the pipes waiting for the next cycle. Nope, no adjustments or anything, no other appliances firing. Just randomly in the middle of the shower with the blender at the same setting it sometimes will give you no warm water for a minute.
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Nov 13, 2020 02:38
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So, I need a heater in an approximate 400 square foot uninsulated garage (with stone walls and no way to insulate it) with a low ceiling in the suburbs of Philadelphia, so I can actually use my home gym year-round. Gas hookup is available, as is a nearby window for venting. The people that have come out have all largely tried to push me to a mini-split system at around five grand, and just waffle when I ask about what I generally consider a default "garage heater," a Reznor/Modine-style hanging box. A while ago my usual HVAC guy attached a one-line quote for a Reznor unit (without any model number listed, which makes comparison difficult) at $4700, which seems pretty freaking high given that a 30k BTU separated combustion chamber unit looks like it costs about $1200. I think with the code height constraints that a separated combustion unit is required, but I'm not sure. While I can't say that I'd turn down the ability to get rid of my portable A/C unit to have more effective cooling in the warmer months and to free up a few precious square feet of floor space, my gut tells me that $4700+ to safely heat this space is pretty high. I basically need to keep it in the 50s overnight (with the lowest temperatures we get here generally being in the single digits, but more generally around 30-ish) and then be able to crank it up before my workouts. Does anyone have suggestions for good approaches to my issue or guidance on whether people are high-balling quotes here because they want to upsell to a mini-split for ease of installation?
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Nov 14, 2020 13:39
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I've got a koi pond that I'm pretty lukewarm on. At this point it's mostly just a wet hole that's a few feet deep. How dumb would it be to try to DIY convert it into an in-ground hot tub? It wouldn't need to be outfitted with all sorts of fancy jets; a literal tub of hot water akin to those wood-fired ones would be acceptable (although I'd use an electric system). I was thinking of doing some sort of stone/concrete mix and then slathering a seal on it. You’re never going to be able to get an in-ground fishpond “hot” with any reasonable amount of energy. Every kilowatt you dump it is going to get dissipated into the ground almost immediately. Better plan would be to rip it out and put in a proper, insulated in-ground hot tub, or pour a pad and place an above-ground pre-fab.
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Nov 14, 2020 15:45
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I've got a koi pond that I'm pretty lukewarm on. At this point it's mostly just a wet hole that's a few feet deep. How dumb would it be to try to DIY convert it into an in-ground hot tub? It wouldn't need to be outfitted with all sorts of fancy jets; a literal tub of hot water akin to those wood-fired ones would be acceptable (although I'd use an electric system). I was thinking of doing some sort of stone/concrete mix and then slathering a seal on it. well if you take it out you'll have more room to play Koirnhole
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Nov 14, 2020 15:50
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tetrapyloctomy posted:So, I need a heater in an approximate 400 square foot uninsulated garage (with stone walls and no way to insulate it) with a low ceiling in the suburbs of Philadelphia, so I can actually use my home gym year-round. Gas hookup is available, as is a nearby window for venting. The people that have come out have all largely tried to push me to a mini-split system at around five grand, and just waffle when I ask about what I generally consider a default "garage heater," a Reznor/Modine-style hanging box. A while ago my usual HVAC guy attached a one-line quote for a Reznor unit (without any model number listed, which makes comparison difficult) at $4700, which seems pretty freaking high given that a 30k BTU separated combustion chamber unit looks like it costs about $1200. I think with the code height constraints that a separated combustion unit is required, but I'm not sure. Hello, where I grew up we'd just use a propane heater to get through the winter: https://www.harborfreight.com/30000...V8aAjG_EALw_wcB That isn't exactly what we had, ours looked like a jet engine. Something more like this: https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...LUaAiy3EALw_wcB The point I'm making is how often do you work out? When I weight lifted it was at most 3X a week for a couple of hours and there's no way I could justify spending $5k on a heater for three/four months of the year. The two options (and plenty more on the internet) are what I'd do first as they are so cheap.
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Nov 14, 2020 16:07
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tetrapyloctomy posted:garage heater I don’t know much about hvac systems but 30k BTU seems like a lot of output for only 400 sqft. If you just need heat for a couple hours a day in the winter, what about an infrared heater or two?
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Nov 14, 2020 16:15
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tetrapyloctomy posted:So, I need a heater in an approximate 400 square foot uninsulated garage (with stone walls and no way to insulate it) I don't understand how there's no way to insulate it. Let's start there. tetrapyloctomy posted:I basically need to keep it in the 50s overnight (with the lowest temperatures we get here generally being in the single digits, but more generally around 30-ish) and then be able to crank it up before my workouts. A mini split will not work for this. The reaction time between 50 and 65 will be measured in hours. I don't see how you use a garage style heater (like a Reznor) in a place with low ceilings. It's just not going to work. There are vent free wall hanging propane/natural gas heaters: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Mr-Heater-20-000-BTU-Vent-Free-Blue-Flame-Natural-Gas-Heater-MHVFBF20NGT/304911364 They're not great, but you're down to not great options at this point.
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Nov 14, 2020 17:29
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It would be hard on the 'ol electric bill, but a big 'ol electric heater like this King might be a decent alternative.
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Nov 14, 2020 18:15
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Elviscat posted:It would be hard on the 'ol electric bill, but a big 'ol electric heater like this King might be a decent alternative. Motronic posted:I don't understand how there's no way to insulate it. Let's start there. quote:A mini split will not work for this. The reaction time between 50 and 65 will be measured in hours. quote:]I don't see how you use a garage style heater (like a Reznor) in a place with low ceilings. It's just not going to work. quote:There are vent free wall hanging propane/natural gas heaters: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Mr-Heater-20-000-BTU-Vent-Free-Blue-Flame-Natural-Gas-Heater-MHVFBF20NGT/304911364 They're not great, but you're down to not great options at this point. hypnophant posted:I don’t know much about hvac systems but 30k BTU seems like a lot of output for only 400 sqft. If you just need heat for a couple hours a day in the winter, what about an infrared heater or two? Earth posted:That isn't exactly what we had, ours looked like a jet engine. Something more like this: https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...LUaAiy3EALw_wcB Edit: It's unreasonable to expect anyone to give more specific advice without knowing what the space looks like. I'll get some more pictures when I can, but this give an idea of the current setup, with my back up against the garage door. Sorry for the distorted wide-angle shot, but that's all I've got at the moment. 
tetrapyloctomy fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 18:26
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tetrapyloctomy posted:Framing out walls to have a cavity suitable for insulation would be arduous and time-consuming; would encroach upon the opening to the garage door; and in general is considered a really bad idea in this type of stone construction where the walls regularly get damp, as it can cause accelerated freeze-thaw damage and destroy them. Is this your understanding, or something you were told by a handyman that didn't want the job? tetrapyloctomy posted:Why would low ceilings keep one from working? Unless you mean just from a head clearance perspective, in which case one of these with a 12" height wouldn't hang much lower than the steel support beams that are in the garage already. Because they're not designed to be installed that way. They are actively dangerous at head height due to their output characteristics. Which is why the cut sheet says you can't install them that way. And if you disregard the cut sheet it's not to code. tetrapyloctomy posted:What in particular makes them not great compared to other styles of similar output? Anything ventless is going to make the room a humid mess. Edit: now I see your pic that you added. JFC why are you trying to condition that entire space? Throw up three walls around the weights. Insulate them. You'd be able to heat it with a freaking candle. (meaning you can throw in a single section of electric baseboard and be totally fine)
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Nov 14, 2020 18:35
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A minisplit could regulate the temperature minimum but without even a modicum of insulation you're going to be spending a ton of money on any kind of heating against 0-30f ambient. Same with a gas furnace sorta thing with a flue going outside just your gas bill is going to be nuts. Can you not frame out enough to get some foam insulation up? Is your garage door insulated? Is it metal? That is prime insulation territory.
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Nov 14, 2020 18:43
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Motronic posted:Is this your understanding, or something you were told by a handyman that didn't want the job? The issues with insulating stone walls is what I've gotten from researching my home, confirmed by an independent home energy inspector I spoke with last year. The placement of the windows and the garage door brackets and opener prevent a wall going straight across, and putting one right up against the platform makes it tough to actually move around easily, much less moving seven foot Olympic bars. I strongly considered it when I built the other walls, but it just wasn't in the cards. H110Hawk posted:A minisplit could regulate the temperature minimum but without even a modicum of insulation you're going to be spending a ton of money on any kind of heating against 0-30f ambient. Same with a gas furnace sorta thing with a flue going outside just your gas bill is going to be nuts.
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Nov 14, 2020 18:55
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tetrapyloctomy posted:The issues with insulating stone walls is what I've gotten from researching my home, confirmed by an independent home energy inspector I spoke with last year. Can you point me at this "research"? Because it sounds like you don't actually understand how vapor barriers work, where they would be placed in an assembly like this, or how the integrity of your wall assembly shouldn't rely on your house being either heated or unheated. This is another one of those asks where every obvious solution has already been considered impossible. Leaving you with only a few lovely "solutions", none of which are going to work well and all of which are going to cost a fortune in energy bills. This leaves you with three options: plow ahead and create something that's going to leave you unhappy, start over and figure out how to question some of the assumptions you've made or "don't do it at all" because the idea isn't feasible.
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Nov 14, 2020 19:41
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My PO put Rinnai wall units like the one below in my 2 garages and while they're not what I would've picked due to losing some floor space they do a pretty good job and are a lot quieter than the typical ceiling mount garage heaters I'm used to. I don't know about this specific model, but the ones I have can be mounted on the wall up off the floor if that's a concern, something I wish the PO would've had done in my case. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-EnergySaver-21-500-BTU-Vented-Natural-Gas-Furnace-EX22CTWN/306653481 I have the size up from that but my garages are both 600 square feet, I'm in Alaska, and frankly I'm not sure actually need to be as big as they are. I even use one of them in a similar manner as you're talking about as that "garage" is a semi finished home office/workout room/shop, leaving it at 50 degrees overnight and when I'm at work but then bringing up to something more comfortable when I'm home which only takes minutes with a 30k BTU unit.
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Nov 14, 2020 19:42
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No, every obvious solution has not been deemed impossible, just possessing obstacles of varying types. I'm not dismissing any solutions out of hand, just explaining where difficulties arise while trying to piece together why pros have recommended some solutions -- e.g., the mini-split -- that seem to have drawbacks that you guys have confirmed and clarified while they glossed over them.
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Nov 14, 2020 19:57
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Hard to tell from that pic, but is it possible to just use a plastic sheet to cut off the area of the garage where your workout gear is, and heat that? Obviously not a permanent solution but might be a quick and easy thing to do for the cold season. It'll be inefficient as hell still but at least you're reducing the volume a bit. I'm dealing with a similar situation in Sweden but I ended up framing (with steel studs) half the garage and building a wall. Obviously it makes it useless to park cars in at this point but it's a 1930s garage that was useless to begin with. Now I have a heated home gym (that doesn't use a lot of energy) and an unheated space for tools and poo poo. That part stays above freezing still, but the gym I keep at 18C or so all winter. The method I used (steel studs, insulation between them, plastic sheet and then board) is one of those that some people swear by and other insist will do terrible things, but our old house's basement was done this way back in the 1980s and is still fresh as a daisy so I'm not too concerned. Clayton Bigsby fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 20:42
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Clayton Bigsby posted:Hard to tell from that pic, but is it possible to just use a plastic sheet to cut off the area of the garage where your workout gear is, and heat that? Obviously not a permanent solution but might be a quick and easy thing to do for the cold season. It'll be inefficient as hell still but at least you're reducing the volume a bit. Yeah, that coupled with the pain-in-the-rear end measure of keeping the bars in the furnace room just off the garage is a stopgap measure I've considered, since it would cut the volume about in half. Things will get a bit easier if I can fix the weirdly-arranged supports for the garage door tracks, too.
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Nov 14, 2020 21:06
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I think a space heater pointed at you and workout gloves is the solution here.
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Nov 14, 2020 21:16
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MrYenko posted:You’re never going to be able to get an in-ground fishpond “hot” with any reasonable amount of energy. Every kilowatt you dump it is going to get dissipated into the ground almost immediately. Better plan would be to rip it out and put in a proper, insulated in-ground hot tub, or pour a pad and place an above-ground pre-fab. Oh, really? I figured the ground would be more insulating than open air, especially with a few inches of concrete (edit: and additional in-ground insulation barrier, after some reading) between the water and the dirt e: think of something like this (obviously an in-progress shot)  I guess the question is how stupid of an idea is this The Wonder Weapon fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 22:02
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It's stupid, unless you put a lot of effort into doing it right. Air at STP is .02 units of thermal conductivity. Concrete is 1-2 (50-100 times more thermally conductive than air) and soil is in the 0.2-0.5 range if it's not sandy. Water - a great thermally conductive medium - is about 0.6. Aside from just conductivity, you also have to take into account the sheer mass of what will be sinking the heat. If you're connected to the ground, you have a functionally infinite heatsink, which is why you would need to insulate it with a couple inches of foam
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Nov 15, 2020 02:11
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"hey so if i install a lazy susan bracket, round head screws are okay, right?" - previous owner of Deviant's house, and the world' biggest waste of oxygen
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Nov 15, 2020 20:35
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Happiness Commando posted:It's stupid, unless you put a lot of effort into doing it right. Air at STP is .02 units of thermal conductivity. Concrete is 1-2 (50-100 times more thermally conductive than air) and soil is in the 0.2-0.5 range if it's not sandy. Water - a great thermally conductive medium - is about 0.6. Aside from just conductivity, you also have to take into account the sheer mass of what will be sinking the heat. If you're connected to the ground, you have a functionally infinite heatsink, which is why you would need to insulate it with a couple inches of foam Uninsulated gunite spas are a thing, you just don't keep them hot all the time, you turn it on before you use it.
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Nov 15, 2020 21:49
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Happiness Commando posted:It's stupid, unless you put a lot of effort into doing it right. Air at STP is .02 units of thermal conductivity. Concrete is 1-2 (50-100 times more thermally conductive than air) and soil is in the 0.2-0.5 range if it's not sandy. Water - a great thermally conductive medium - is about 0.6. Aside from just conductivity, you also have to take into account the sheer mass of what will be sinking the heat. If you're connected to the ground, you have a functionally infinite heatsink, which is why you would need to insulate it with a couple inches of foam This is surprising, honestly. It never occurred to me how much more insulating air is than concrete and dirt. Huh. Well, were I going to go that route, I'd have to make a point to ensure I'm properly insulating the concrete casing to prevent paying to warm up all the dirt. The reason I find the in-ground approach appealing is because I've already got the hole, and they look a lot slicker. I was also hoping that doing the hard work of building my own would end up considerably cheaper than paying $5,000+ to fill the hole and then plop down an above-ground prefab. Those wood-fired ones are appealing in their simplicity, but seem like you'd end up using them rarely, since you've got to get an actual fire going to do it, which in the winter months is going to be a non-starter. That might be a different story if you've got it on your patio, but mine will end up being 40 or 50 feet from the house entrance.
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Nov 16, 2020 15:48
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It’s me, I’m the thread title. I’ve been slowly building out a new gfci circuit as I have time, adding some more outlets to the garage, an outdoor outlet behind the garage, as well as under the eaves for Christmas lights. I’m pretty close to being done, just two more outlets to go and the wire is already pulled to the cavity above the next to last outlet, with a short hop to the other, final outlet under the eaves by the front door. Once that’s done I’ll get it tied in to the breaker box. Of course, I didn’t pay attention and hosed up where I started the hole for the box. I put the short side right on a seam that was held together by a 2x4 so there wasn’t any room for the tab to lock down. Tried to see what I could do to fix the piece of wood so the box could be secure but ultimately decided to replace it. On the plus side, the segment of soffit to replace is very short so it won’t be hard to slap a new one in there tomorrow, with a properly cut out hole for the box. Could be worse, it was only an $8 mistake for the piece of replacement plywood.  
devmd01 fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 00:21
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The Wonder Weapon posted:This is surprising, honestly. It never occurred to me how much more insulating air is than concrete and dirt. Huh. Well, were I going to go that route, I'd have to make a point to ensure I'm properly insulating the concrete casing to prevent paying to warm up all the dirt. So I kinda misunderstood initially. You can ABSOLUTELY use the hole in the ground as a basis for an in-ground hot tub. Initially I thought you also meant using the existing pond structure, which is a non-starter.  A proper, insulated, in-ground hot tub is a hell of a nice thing to have around, but honestly the cost of the hole itself is a rounding error in that kind of project. Between pumps, heaters, plumbing, controls, etc, you’re in the multiple thousands of dollars range, maybe tens of thousands, depending on how big it is, and how far north you are.
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Nov 17, 2020 02:01
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devmd01 posted:It’s me, I’m the thread title. I’ve been slowly building out a new gfci circuit as I have time, adding some more outlets to the garage, an outdoor outlet behind the garage, as well as under the eaves for Christmas lights. I’m pretty close to being done, just two more outlets to go and the wire is already pulled to the cavity above the next to last outlet, with a short hop to the other, final outlet under the eaves by the front door. Once that’s done I’ll get it tied in to the breaker box. You can screw or nail through the little ears on a retro box, #6 bugle head wood screws work really well, as long as the metal's no in the volume of the box itself. I know it's way to late but
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Nov 17, 2020 04:56
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MrYenko posted:So I kinda misunderstood initially. You can ABSOLUTELY use the hole in the ground as a basis for an in-ground hot tub. Initially I thought you also meant using the existing pond structure, which is a non-starter. This is something I briefly looked into this year and basically determined that I’m probably just as well off moving houses and doing this someplace nicer for as much time and money as I’d have to sink into it, even diy.
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Nov 17, 2020 17:10
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I've seen a lot of blog posts about people turning livestock water tanks into DIY pools and a couple that make them into hot tubs that are either heated with wood fires or electric spa heaters. Cheaper than buying a hot tub, and you can dress them up a bit to make 'em look kinda neat. Absolutely the most inefficient way to heat up a bunch of water though and it will probably take forever unless you insulate the poo poo out of the thing, and that's with them above ground.
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Nov 17, 2020 17:40
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MrYenko posted:So I kinda misunderstood initially. You can ABSOLUTELY use the hole in the ground as a basis for an in-ground hot tub. Initially I thought you also meant using the existing pond structure, which is a non-starter. I'm in WNY, so we get winter, but it's not as bad as plenty of other cities around the great lakes. For maybe two to three months it floats around freezing temps, with a handful of weeks dipping well below that. OSU_Matthew posted:This is something I briefly looked into this year and basically determined that I’m probably just as well off moving houses and doing this someplace nicer for as much time and money as I’d have to sink into it, even diy.
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Nov 17, 2020 20:42
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Sirotan posted:I've seen a lot of blog posts about people turning livestock water tanks into DIY pools and a couple that make them into hot tubs that are either heated with wood fires or electric spa heaters. Cheaper than buying a hot tub, and you can dress them up a bit to make 'em look kinda neat. Absolutely the most inefficient way to heat up a bunch of water though and it will probably take forever unless you insulate the poo poo out of the thing, and that's with them above ground.
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Nov 18, 2020 07:01
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Ball pit GIS 露天風呂 to see wonderful outdoor baths (the trick is to fill with heated water, not to heat a cold pond.)
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Nov 18, 2020 12:50
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peanut posted:Ball pit Also a bunch of naked japanese dudes, apparently  Those pools are awesome, though   
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Nov 18, 2020 14:25
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Has anyone had the pleasure of moving CAN lights in a finished ceiling before? This is to accommodate the possibility of a kitchen remodel that would move my peninsula to the left (solid taped lines are base cabinets, dashed lines are approx countertop overhang) * It has to move "one joist span" to the left. * Ceiling is drywalled * Space above is finished (no access) From what I have read, I would have to legally leave access to the old holes no matter what I do. I bought a few blank covers to see what they would look like, and well they're not ideal: https://www.garvinindustries.com/cbc-800 At bare minimum I believe I'd have to make new holes, run wires to them FROM the old cans (through joists) and install electrical boxes in new location. As best i can guess I could also explore converting the old CAN holes to smaller electrical boxes.. somehow, patch drywall around, then have smaller less visible covers. Am I missing any legal options here? 
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Nov 18, 2020 16:15
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You can't leave a splice in the ceiling, but you could re-terminate / re-run your cable so that there are none aside from your new boxes. Depending on how it was wired and daisy-chained, you could get lucky and only have to tear out the drywall between those joist bays and where the lights continue down towards the sink. Where's the switch for these lights?
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Nov 18, 2020 16:26
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Hed posted:You can't leave a splice in the ceiling, but you could re-terminate / re-run your cable so that there are none aside from your new boxes. Depending on how it was wired and daisy-chained, you could get lucky and only have to tear out the drywall between those joist bays and where the lights continue down towards the sink. Ah yes, that would be nice if they were 'fed' from that way, didn't think about that. I also totally neglected to mention that I want to put in pendant lights to replace them, not new can lights. There's two switches, so 3 way. One is visible next to the patio door. the other is at the opposite diagonal corner of kitchen. I think that 'opposite' one is where the actual power feed is. Honestly, I only really need one switch and would make due with that if I had to. Are there any uh.. power wire metal detectors to try to trace the path? I have a small cheap handheld wand thing that I could try but I think it has to be pretty close to the wire. I also don't fully know what's going on inside of the cans and didn't see a way to 'see' beyond the metal part, but if it can somehow pull out, maybe something would be visible with a phone camera. I'll have to muck with it more to see if the screw in light fixture portion, which does adjust up and down, can somehow pull out and dangle. It seems to be a standard 'new construction' fixture, house is from mid 80s, so something in the ballpark of this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/202256649
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Nov 18, 2020 16:36
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