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We did destroy the passports of black citizens and continue to ethnically cleanse them against international law though
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Nov 22, 2020 13:14
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Jakabite posted:No but you see it’s just as bad here because Exactly.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:15
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Vigil for Virgil posted:And yet we moved past it Tell that to people in Dungavel or Yarl's Wood
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Nov 22, 2020 13:15
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Remember when a government minister suggested moving our camps to the middle of the Atlantic so they could better abuse refugees
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Nov 22, 2020 13:15
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Rumda posted:Only because we no longer have the manpower and organisation to do it. If they could do it they would be building reeducation camps for Trans people. Sorry but this just comes across as wildly hyperbolic. There are elements within the current government who I can see supporting this but 1) that absolutely isn’t in line with the priorities of a modern neoliberal government and 2) the British state absolutely does have the resources to round anyone they like up into camps. They don’t because they don’t want or need to, and Britain just isn’t as as authoritarian as China. Like sorry but it just isn’t
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Nov 22, 2020 13:17
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I think it is equally obvious that the UK does not have the logistical capacity for that scale of atrocity as it is that the lack of capacity is the only reason the UK isn't doing it. I really don't see anything to suggest that the UK government somehow would not do that out of some sense of justice or whatever.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:18
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Considering our "government" solely does press releases and open corruption they still manage to get quite a lot of evil poo poo in when they can be bothered. It's just yeah even an app is beyond them
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Nov 22, 2020 13:18
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When we did have the capacity to commit atrocities we did them. Now that we don't, we don't*** do them because were too kind now ***just a little as a treat
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Nov 22, 2020 13:19
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The app, and all the associated COVID incompetence, isn’t actually incompetence. They did what they intended and funnelled money from the public into private hands.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:20
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therattle posted:nor performed mass sterilisations and forcible IUD use. this bit of it isn't true afaik. also lol did you miss that whole sotry about people with bad credit ratings not getting covid tests cos the government outsourced it to a credit rating company? we live in an insanely CCTV covered country i'm curious what the current tory death total is after combining austerity + covid
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Nov 22, 2020 13:20
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Lots of face coverings, not much travel between communities, people very reluctant to accept lifts - she's on to something here.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:23
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Jakabite posted:E: also we invented that is a weak as poo poo argument. We did, but there isn’t anything close to that in modern Britain on the scale and ferocity with which it’s happening in China. Yarl’s Wood and them sorts of places are obviously awful but let’s not even pretend they’re the same as mass ethnic cleansing.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:23
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we're currently arming and training other countries to do what might well be the biggest genocide to ever happen
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Nov 22, 2020 13:25
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We are quite literally in the process of ethnically cleansing the Windrush generation
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Nov 22, 2020 13:25
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Rumda posted:because we have already done all the ethnic cleansing we could do There's always the Welsh.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:28
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The argument is stupid. Obviously China is a more functional state than the UK, we are in the middle of a massive demonstration of that. But yes China is an authoritarian right wing state that sucks in a multitude of ways. Nobody should kneejerk defend it. China's whole history involves millions of people being killed every 10 minutes for one reason or another. It's also really stupid to try to claim BRITAIN as a morally decent country by comparison though. We just don't have the capacity to do as much harm and we still swing for the fences every time we get an opportunity and are currently engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing ourselves.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:29
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Again, I loving despise this government but comparing Windrush, which is absolutely terrible and a huge injustice, to a million people put in concentration camps just isn’t as strong a defence of the CCP as some of you seem to think.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:30
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For reference I don't think it's a defence of the CCP at all my point is that they both seem like dogshit regimes to live under but I would probably take the incapable one over the capable one if both are so antithetical to human life.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:33
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OwlFancier posted:For reference I don't think it's a defence of the CCP at all my point is that they both seem like dogshit regimes to live under but I would probably take the incapable one over the capable one if both are so antithetical to human life. Oh no I didn’t mean you! More TP and Jose, who seem to have the tankie brainworm thing that countries that call themselves communist are actually alright and you can ignore all the ways they’re loving terrible. I’d be very interested to hear some hot takes on how North Korea isn’t actually as bad as everyone makes out
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Nov 22, 2020 13:35
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I always like to tell people who think elections make us a democracy that North Korea holds elections too
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Nov 22, 2020 13:36
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I'm extremely suspicious of all Western sources on Xinjiang honestly though I'm also suspicious of all Chinese sources. Its pretty clearly the subject of a propaganda war. Something is clearly happening there which the Chinese state is trying to whitewash but people seem to be willing to take some really suspect 'evidence' from very dubious and clearly partisan sources (Adrian Zenz, I mean come on) at face value so long as it promotes the 'genocide' narrative. It seems significantly more likely that you've got the kind of heavy handed crackdown on a separatist movement that you'd expect from an authoritarian state. While I'm sure there is an element of Han chauvinism involved in cultivating attitudes, I'm troubled by the number of people who have just uncritically accepted the idea that this is first and foremost about ethnic cleansing. It does feel like there's a bit of racism in there. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 13:38
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I mean Uighur people themselves seem like a fairly good source. Funny how none of this suspicion was cast on the Rohingya or similar
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Nov 22, 2020 13:39
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the cultural damage is visible from space
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Nov 22, 2020 13:43
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Dabir posted:the cultural damage is visible from space Didn't think you could see the Blackpool tower from space.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:44
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm extremely suspicious of all Western sources on Xinjiang honestly though I'm also suspicious of all Chinese sources. Its pretty clearly the subject of a propaganda war. Something is clearly happening there which the Chinese state is trying to whitewash but people seem to be willing to take some really suspect 'evidence' from very dubious and clearly partisan sources (Adrian Zenz, I mean come on) at face value so long as it promotes the 'genocide' narrative.  What about the Hong Kong protests where the CCP sent in death squads and are black bagging protestors. Using live rounds on protests too, are you taking all those reports with a pinch of salt too?
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Nov 22, 2020 13:46
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Jakabite posted:Oh no I didn’t mean you! More TP and Jose, who seem to have the tankie brainworm thing that countries that call themselves communist are actually alright and you can ignore all the ways they’re loving terrible. I’d be very interested to hear some hot takes on how North Korea isn’t actually as bad as everyone makes out Where have I stated I think they're good? Try not to be a oval office mate
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Nov 22, 2020 13:46
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Jakabite posted:I mean Uighur people themselves seem like a fairly good source. Funny how none of this suspicion was cast on the Rohingya or similar Or the Palestinians for that matter.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:46
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I don't see why you would assume there must be some other motivation other than the desire to ethnically cleanse people when you also accept that the UK just loves doing that.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:50
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It seems pretty simple: The Chinese absolutely are genociding the Uighur AND the West is using it to start a new cold war. These things aren't mutually exclusive. There's no way any western nation actually cares about the Uighur, and indeed the plight of any minority group, other than as a way to attack the present 'threat'. See how bleeding heart republicans get about oppression in Iran while also wanting to nuke everyone in the country. China bad, everyone else bad, new cold war bad, world bad.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:50
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If the propaganda efforts weren't as polished here we would see much more active state repression but it simply isn't necessary. Instead, millions of folk walk into a newsagents and gladly pay to be lied to about liars, drive home while listening to another tranche of corporate state authorised bullshit on the radio then sit in front of the TV for another dose direct to the eyeballs before getting on facebook to have it validated by a bunch of other blathering dipshits and automatically amplified by bots. Why bother going to the expense and bother of running camps for say, muslim or trans folks, when you can turn chunks of the population rabidly angry at them with polished and practiced ease and repress them in their own homes and streets? This whole damned nation is a prison camp- and like the gulags in siberia- there aren't many guards because there's nowhere to loving run to.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:51
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Yeah there's certainly an element of propaganda there. That's what sets me off, whenever some other country or group is doing something bad it gets hyped up and comes up in every discussion about our own atrocities. Also at the moment there is a really predictable Sinophobic response in the medias of the western powers because the Chinese loving embarrassed the west over covid. Their science has been months ahead of ours at every step and their response was massive, quick and effective. Ours has been largely completely shockingly incompetent. China stumbled and it accidentally yanked the curtain down exposing the man paying his inbred cousin to do nothing. It did expose that there IS a reason to want to live in places like China over the west. Like people saying "so would you live in China over the UK then?" absolutely yes are you kidding me after 2020? If I had a flat in Xian lined up I'd be on the plane now. That's what had to be attacked by the media. Otoh I don't find it hard to believe that the uighur stuff is about ethnic cleansing though and I'm not going to excuse them, whatever theyr up to its loving horrible. They are not a nice left wing ally state theyr another cynical industrial empire. China has always been an imperialist project. And I do think Windrush is ethnic cleansing, the intent is the same even if the scale and direct intervention is different. (very tory solution, just make them someone else's problem and abdicate responsibility.) Are we going to honestly believe they accidentally lost/destroyed the passports of the black people they wanted to deport? That makes us the brainwashed drones.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:52
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Saying 'X may be the subject of propaganda from Y, so we shouldn't necessarily take statements about it at face value' isn't the same thing as 'X is good' E: my uncertainty about describing what's happening as 'ethnic cleansing' is that it just seems to make no sense. There are active Uyghur members of the CCP. The language is a recognised minority language. There are dedicated cultural institutions to promote Uyghur culture. All of these things are controlled by the party at some level, but that's why I tend to think its more a heavy handed response to separatism. That's not good, obviously, but it's not exactly ethnic cleansing. That would be like having the Third Reich have Jewish ministers and recognising Yiddish and making Hannukah an official holiday - it just seems absurd. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 13:54
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The persistant theme of wanting to stan big daddy CCP because wouldn't it be weird guys if authoritarianism was the only way lol what if we had to kill a load of people to stop separatism guys wouldn't that be wild just saying, might be a contributing factor to why people think you might think it's good, actually.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:56
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Communist Thoughts posted:Are we going to honestly believe they accidentally lost/destroyed the passports of the black people they wanted to deport? They weren't passports, they were boarding cards, and all documentation such as boarding cards gets destroyed on a 50 year cycle, on the assumption that if you've been here 50 years then you're probably a citizen, because nobody wanted a formal database of who is or isn't. If they'd had passports, they'd be in their possession and couldn't be destroyed. That uncertain status was then capitalized on by the Tories in the 2010s, in a deliberately racist campaign. It's like the difference between deliberately poisoning a town's water supply and Flint, MI. DIfferent attitudes led to it, but that doesn't mean much to those affected. Or the difference between having a social credit system that determines your access to things and doing functionally the same but calling it a bank account. Or that the US prison population hasn't been mentioned in the list of bad poo poo thus far.
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Nov 22, 2020 14:01
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We literally couldn’t have this thread in China, and for the crime of posting in here we could have punishments ranging from having our social credit score lowered to being thrown into a re-education camp. The CCP have indeed shamed many Western governments by showing that it’s perfectly possible for a state to handle Covid, but yeah they’re still loving terrible. We really need to stop this knee-jerk “well actually Britain is just as bad/worse because...” whenever a criticism of any country, no matter how authoritarian, is made.
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Nov 22, 2020 14:05
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Lol chinese science being months ahead, at best they've been level with the west (their vaccine candiate probably works as well as the western ones). Just that their government felt getting the virus under control was more important to keep their people onside (since it was governmental fuckups that led to uncontrolled spread in the first place) and it fitted with what they wanted to do anyways. If anywhere should be shaming western governments, it's places like Taiwan, South Korea and New Zealand.
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Nov 22, 2020 14:07
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Communist Thoughts posted:Like people saying "so would you live in China over the UK then?" absolutely yes are you kidding me after 2020? If I had a flat in Xian lined up I'd be on the plane now. I too am eager to live in a country where your posting is literally and unironically a criminal offence
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Nov 22, 2020 14:07
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Guavanaut posted:They did, but it's a good example of how lazy liberal shite gets the same outcomes as authoritarian oppression. It was the home office who destroyed them though right? The one with the racist plans to get rid of black people? Same home office who then started deporting them all anyway? And resumed deporting them after the outcry had ceased, continuing until today? And refuses to even track down the ones who are legally exonerated? *Joe Biden voice* cmon man
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Nov 22, 2020 14:08
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OwlFancier posted:The persistant theme of wanting to stan big daddy CCP because wouldn't it be weird guys if authoritarianism was the only way lol what if we had to kill a load of people to stop separatism guys wouldn't that be wild just saying, might be a contributing factor to why people think you might think it's good, actually. I don't think a single person is saying that what is happening in Xinjiang is good. You can accept that the Chinese state is being very poo poo while also acknowledging that certain interests might benefit from making it sound even worse than it is.
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Nov 22, 2020 14:08
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ThomasPaine posted:Which SCP is this SCP-5248
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Nov 22, 2020 14:11
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