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I'll have to disagree with the reason why I use Mixu's LLs, particularly for the Empire Electors Counts: when I fight Averland (cavalry galore), it should feel different to me fighting Hochland (snipers in the woods), or MIddenland (better melee than usual for Empire), or whatever. The lore accounts for a diversity of fighting styles across the same "race," and that is a major part of the charm of Warhammer. Fighting the WW1 rats should be different from fighting the bio-nightmare rats and I should be forced to account for that when facing them, because otherwise it gets boring.
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Nov 22, 2020 23:33
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So did the new patch come out yet with the foot lord changes or is it dropping alongside the DLC?
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Nov 22, 2020 23:38
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toasterwarrior posted:I'll have to disagree with the reason why I use Mixu's LLs, particularly for the Empire Electors Counts: when I fight Averland (cavalry galore), it should feel different to me fighting Hochland (snipers in the woods), or MIddenland (better melee than usual for Empire), or whatever. The lore accounts for a diversity of fighting styles across the same "race," and that is a major part of the charm of Warhammer. Fighting the WW1 rats should be different from fighting the bio-nightmare rats and I should be forced to account for that when facing them, because otherwise it gets boring. Yeah, but those factors just change what you rely on, not "Hochland armies are nothing but handgunners, who are so much better than other handgunners that you need nothing else". Because that's Ikit. Eshin and Pestilens both feel better to me. They're different focuses, but still benefit from other units. Mors I haven't played in ages, but I'm sure they need more than all stormvermin all the time. Mixu's LLs are good.
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Nov 22, 2020 23:38
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Arcsquad12 posted:So did the new patch come out yet with the foot lord changes or is it dropping alongside the DLC? That is coming with the dlc.
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Nov 22, 2020 23:39
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Ravenfood posted:Yeah, but those factors just change what you rely on, not "Hochland armies are nothing but handgunners, who are so much better than other handgunners that you need nothing else". Because that's Ikit. Eshin and Pestilens both feel better to me. They're different focuses, but still benefit from other units. Mors I haven't played in ages, but I'm sure they need more than all stormvermin all the time. Mixu's LLs are good. I think a fair amount of the power discrepancy is, well, Skryre Weapon Teams are extremely good at their job. They're specialist units, after all, and in turn are stupidly fragile. The issue is that the AI is in no way good enough to account for this, and will do dumb poo poo like shooting at your Skavenslaves first instead of ignoring them in favor of the real dangerous poo poo. Mind you, this is intertwined with the whole "what is a good AI" thing because if the AI knew to ignore your chaff properly and actually was extremely efficient at its job of trying to kill you, that would be legitimately an unfun time IMO.
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Nov 22, 2020 23:48
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I'm noticing in all this discussion about Skaven being too varied and non-vanilla, almost nobody has mentioned Queek besides raven just now, the most vanilla and least played skaven campaign.
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Nov 23, 2020 00:06
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And we're not discussing Rictus because, face it, Tretch probably wants it that way, for easier backstabbing
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Nov 23, 2020 00:12
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Most weapon teams are at 75+ armor and really aren't particularly fragile - they won't WIN melee combat, but they don't die particularly fast either. This leads to part of the problem with the compositions you're talking about - in tabletop and lore they're both fragile if someone does target them (bar Jezzails at range to an extent, due to the palisades) AND have the Skaven misfire issues. Here? Skaven misfire issues were completely removed, and practically all the weapon teams were given heavy armor stats which aren't remotely reflected in the models. Like, if cost isn't an issue, why bother with normal slave/clanrat frontlines when you can just run more weapon teams (possibly with certain specialist units for very particular threats)?
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Nov 23, 2020 00:17
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Ravenfood posted:Nerfing raze income sucks if true because I liked the idea of being a fickle neighbor and occasionally just razing some nearby folks for some cash infusions. Shame, it helped differentiate the WE campaign a bit. I won't complain until I get to play it though, because maybe there are some other techs/stuff that mitigate upkeep a bit. They've taken away the raze income tech I think. But the players are consistently getting twice the income from razing than occupying - I'm not sure raze income has actually been nerfed. And I think the issue with Skaven is that the difference between the Skaven clans is both much more visible than for the other factions and is front and center - and that the two basic lords have been differentiated. I can immediately tell you the difference between Clan Mors, Clan Pestilens, Clan Skyre, Clan Eshin, and Clan Moulder in terms of mechanics - and to an extent Clan Rictus. I don't think the difference is any smaller mechanically between Teclis, Alarielle, Eltharion, Imrik, and Alith Aenar. But I'm comparing entire clans with individuals here and even if Eltharion is as distinct from Teclis as Sniktch is from Skrolk there isn't so much of a faction identity behind them so they blur together. Also the default Tyrion/Teclis are mechanically more similar than Skrolk and Queek or even Queek and Tretch. Also then there's the game one factions. There's very little difference other than on the battlefield and in who they fight between e.g. Karl and Gelt, or between any of the starting Bretonnian Three. So I do think it's more perception than reality - but perception matters.
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Nov 23, 2020 00:41
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 Nabbed from the subreddit. I’ve gotta say, the rats do often get the coolest mechanics. Does this mean CA is staffed by human sized anthropomorphic rats? Who can say.
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Nov 23, 2020 00:47
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skaven are incredibly boring. skyre is wildly mega op and ruins the other factions. weapons teams need *major* nerfs.
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Nov 23, 2020 00:54
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Ammanas posted:skaven are incredibly boring. skyre is wildly mega op and ruins the other factions. weapons teams need *major* nerfs.
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Nov 23, 2020 00:56
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I don't even mind the OPness since TBH that's up to the player to decide whether they want to partake in the bullshit, but it's still a great argument for unit caps per army.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:01
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The crazy thing is Ikit has already been severely nerfed, from when they increased the build-maint costs on all undercity buildings like a month after he released.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:03
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I think they should change the engineer buffs to auras so they don't stack. Similar the issues with wood elves stacking too much +range, skaven and dwarfs break the game with ranged buffs as well. Maybe upping their cost will help a bit. edit: Dwarfs less so since they need a t5 settlement to increase their hero cap.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:07
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toasterwarrior posted:I think a fair amount of the power discrepancy is, well, Skryre Weapon Teams are extremely good at their job. They're specialist units, after all, and in turn are stupidly fragile. The issue is that the AI is in no way good enough to account for this, and will do dumb poo poo like shooting at your Skavenslaves first instead of ignoring them in favor of the real dangerous poo poo. They're pretty durable for what they are and also came with perfect screening units in doomflayers. You simply don't need other units at all, cost aside. The other clans don't quite get that level of independence or power. But realistically, a button with custom UI that gives all ratlings infinite ammo isn't that different from a scrap upgrade or a tech upgrade that does, it's just a different UI, but it really feels different. Nakai feels incredibly unique compared to other lizardmen, but snikch just somehow feels like more work went into him, even though the units from his DLC are all leftover skryre units and they gave all the existing Eshin units a bunch of AP to keep them semi-relevant. But because he got more UI work and all the off-map actions that you don't see with other factions, he feels very neat and cool. The other issue is that Nakai's uniqueness come with upsides and downsides and aren't quite a pure power fantasy while the Skaven factions really don't have those downsides. Eshin kind of does in that while their skirmishers are great, they can still benefit from some kind of artillery or monster support. E: yeah, engineers need to be reworked across the board. And I do truly feel that Skryre's weirdest unit is getting doomflayers, as much as I like them. They're just...much better rat ogres, and are a huge part of why Skryre can do what it can do for relatively cheap. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 01:07
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It's a multitude of reasons of why Skryre weapon team spam is extremely good, the same set of reasons feeding into the "ranged combat dunks on melee combat" problem. Armies not having forced unit caps, armies only being limited to 20 units, model pathfinding issues, etc. My concern is that overcorrecting on this by nerfing weapon teams into feeling bad to use would absolutely not be the way to go, but it's one of the few options to try without doing radical changes to how the game even works.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:08
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toasterwarrior posted:It's a multitude of reasons of why Skryre weapon team spam is extremely good, the same set of reasons feeding into the "ranged combat dunks on melee combat" problem. Armies not having forced unit caps, armies only being limited to 20 units, model pathfinding issues, etc. My concern is that overcorrecting on this by nerfing weapon teams into feeling bad to use would absolutely not be the way to go, but it's one of the few options to try without doing radical changes to how the game even works. Making them a lot more fragile is a good start, especially since light cavalry rarely has good AP. Make their suppressing fire a firing stance, not on by default, so they need more screening. Make them rotate slower. Indirectly nerf them by making flayers actually chariots who need to charge in and out instead of just sticking around in combat. But ultimately, teaching the AI not to blob up on heroes (also nerf engineers) and lords would help a lot too.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:20
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Do weapon teams really feel that durable? I always figured that concentrated fire, even with just crossbows, would gently caress up a weapon team bad quickly since all but one of them have no shields and crap HP per model. And if you get them into melee, well, you've already won.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:24
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Yes a big part of the reason why Skaven compositions are a bit weird is that on tabletop they are legitimately designed for you to spend most of your points on powerful units like weapon teams and the rest on chaff...and that would actually lead to you having an enormous army of chaff that numbers-wise still dwarfed everything that, say, the Dwarves (get it?) could bring to the table. In TWWH everyone gets 20 units and supply lines makes multiple armies not a very good solution for outnumbering your opponent. Plague Priest spam is kinda boring but honestly, those extra 10 - 15 units of clanrats are basically in line with what you'd get on tabletop. Just with the actual quality units exploding from time to time. They tried to solve this with Vampire Counts free skeleton tech but it didn't really work out since they still increase supply lines of every non-fodder unit and embedded hero anyway so you end up with the handful of Vargheists or Blood Knights or whatever you threw into your army being outrageously expensive. Basically the more horde-y a faction is on tabletop, the more CA has to come up with some workaround for adapting them to the game and it's no surprise when it results in misses WRT flavor/army composition/power levels. Factions like Empire, Dwarves, Elves just lend themselves much more naturally to armies that are similar to tabletop, even if you can still doomstack or whatever. For Skaven it's overpowered value-units, for Greenskins it's ludicrous Goblin buffs (no way to try to explain late-game or AI goblin stats with lore), VC it's the kinda awkward but ok I guess free fodder tech.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:27
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Nov 23, 2020 01:29
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Ranged grace period applies to arty, means setting up on the edge of woods will likely win you arty duels vs an enemy out in the open. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efti_k1Rq7I
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Nov 23, 2020 01:37
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I like Skaven memes as much as I hate playing as them, so this DLC is land of contrasts, I guess.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:38
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Am I missing something in the discussion about Skaven getting all the unique stuff? Because Grom and Eltharion were both very different from their base factions.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:46
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toasterwarrior posted:Do weapon teams really feel that durable? I always figured that concentrated fire, even with just crossbows, would gently caress up a weapon team bad quickly since all but one of them have no shields and crap HP per model. And if you get them into melee, well, you've already won.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:49
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KazigluBey posted:Ranged grace period applies to arty, means setting up on the edge of woods will likely win you arty duels vs an enemy out in the open. I’m not sure I understand why this isn’t a Wood Elf only change.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:54
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Tirranek posted:Am I missing something in the discussion about Skaven getting all the unique stuff? Because Grom and Eltharion were both very different from their base factions. The complaint is that any DLC featuring Skaven feels like a Skaven DLC with some other bits stuck on as an afterthought, which is why I was mentioning that Nakai feels really different from baseline lizardmen, probably even more different than Ikit does from other Skaven, but it's not as pure overpowered stuff as Nakai gets, so it feels more like a DLC for Ikit, and also Nakai is in there I guess. And it feels like Ikit got more work (the weapon teams are very different from other Skaven units) while lizardmen got better kroxigors and a giant late game centerpiece unit, so they don't change a lot. E: keep the ranged change for all infantry, remove it for artillery, and make WE arrows phase through trees forever. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 01:57
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The goblins are just being favoured by Gork clearly.
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Nov 23, 2020 02:01
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Ethiser posted:I’m not sure I understand why this isn’t a Wood Elf only change.
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Nov 23, 2020 02:02
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KazigluBey posted:Ranged grace period applies to arty, means setting up on the edge of woods will likely win you arty duels vs an enemy out in the open. This is going to be absolutely horrible for multiplayer. Like, have fun digging a goddamned Coast or Dwarf box out of a clump of trees, given any ranged you have shooting back can get blocked and cavalry no longer works due to forest penalties. Blasting charge miners just became frontline meta, I guess (those are ranged too, of course). Or you have two armies both camping different clumps of trees, and neither wants to advance. Because that's interesting gameplay. I mean, I guess the short term solution is to ban maps with extensive forests, but that just lowers map variety even more. For Wood Elves ALONE it would have at least been flavorful - still likely OP, but flavorful. For every ranged unit, including artillery, in the game? What the hell were they thinking? Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 02:03
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Because anything with a bow or similar on the edge of a wood is going to try it’s best to not shoot an arrow into a tree two feet in front of itself. The forest penalty of messing with charges and the (I want to say) 20% drop in MA is going to be annoying. Real Cool Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 02:04
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neonchameleon posted:They've taken away the raze income tech I think. But the players are consistently getting twice the income from razing than occupying - I'm not sure raze income has actually been nerfed. I mean there's tons of lore on the differences between the Elector Counts or Elven Kingdoms that just doesn't get used at all. As well while they squabble the humans and elves aren't backstabbing ratpeople incapable of trust so Nuln will still provides guns for the Empire and Lothern will still send out the Sea Guard for other kingdoms. They COULD emphasize each subfactions differences more, they just don't. Hell just giving the AI different build preferences per subfaction would be nice.
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Nov 23, 2020 02:12
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Real Cool Catfish posted:Because anything with a bow or similar on the edge of a wood is going to try it’s best to not shoot an arrow into a tree two feet in front of itself. Yeah sure it makes a lot of sense but now ranged is even more effective against cavalry than it was. E: basically I think it's a great change in isolation and an unfortunate one in the context of ranged already being dominant. I guess it's an indirect buff to dogs/wolves. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 02:34
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Agreed, not good for cav . Guess we’ll see how it plays out on release and if it gets tweaked.
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Nov 23, 2020 02:46
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I strongly suspect it's going to ruin multiplayer on most maps because it completely nullifies enemy missile fire and weakening large units combined with how much people absolutely hate fighting in forests in this game. It really should just be a wood elf archer trait on the unit cards, it's less annoying if just one faction can take advantage of it and it's weird that due to projectile speed that the gunpowder factions can outshoot the woodelves in the woods.
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Nov 23, 2020 03:18
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Real Cool Catfish posted:Because anything with a bow or similar on the edge of a wood is going to try it’s best to not shoot an arrow into a tree two feet in front of itself. This is indeed the reason why everyone got it. Wait and see what happens in multiplayer, because while the nightmare scenario of one side camping forest edge and the other side being out in the open does seem terrible I'm curious if there's play/build around for it, depending on the map(s) in question. Obviously you can never take that kind of engage and there's no way things stalemate into nobody advancing, so idk, want to see in practice what happens across the meta.
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Nov 23, 2020 03:32
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coast were already the best faction in multiplayer by a mile
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Nov 23, 2020 03:54
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Ravenfood posted:The complaint is that any DLC featuring Skaven feels like a Skaven DLC with some other bits stuck on as an afterthought, which is why I was mentioning that Nakai feels really different from baseline lizardmen, probably even more different than Ikit does from other Skaven, but it's not as pure overpowered stuff as Nakai gets, so it feels more like a DLC for Ikit, and also Nakai is in there I guess. And it feels like Ikit got more work (the weapon teams are very different from other Skaven units) while lizardmen got better kroxigors and a giant late game centerpiece unit, so they don't change a lot.
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Nov 23, 2020 04:22
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Tehenhuain's campaign is more fun than Ikit's. The only downside is it's tough to do skill shots with the invocation of Sotek. Skaven are a rat-ly feast but their campaigns are a glut, glut, glut, glut!
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Nov 23, 2020 04:50
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Invocation of sotek could use a serious buff.
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Nov 23, 2020 04:52
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