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Herostratus posted:Out of genuine curiosity, how come the original trilogy had none of these issues? At least tESB and RotJ must have faced executive meddling. Watch the George Lucas videos by SF Debris. Hero's Journey, Shadow's Journey and Hermit's Journey. Empire and Jedi were production nightmares.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:18
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Herostratus posted:Out of genuine curiosity, how come the original trilogy had none of these issues? At least tESB and RotJ must have faced executive meddling. ESB was over budget and went over deadline all the time. Lucas almost went bankrupt over it, and he was constantly pissed at Kurshner for it. Kurshner did not give a gently caress. For ROTJ, Lucas hired someone he could easily control so that wouldn't happen again. edit: Even then, ROTJ faced lost of "executive meddling". From Lucas himself, who decided to condense 4 movies into 1, and then drastically change the script near shooting, cutting out the capital city, cutting out a whole 3rd Death Star, cutting out a lava throne room, and ghost Yoda and Obi-Wan helping Luke fight the Emperor. Crazy poo poo went down for the OT. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 22:19
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Herostratus posted:Out of genuine curiosity, how come the original trilogy had none of these issues? At least tESB and RotJ must have faced executive meddling. All of the originals were production nightmares as well, Lucas came really close to having ANH die in production a number of times, and was really lucky to have some studio execs with pull who genuinely believed in him and the project and put their jobs on the line to let it finish. Empire of Dreams is a phenomenal documentary on the first three movies and goes pretty deep into the production woes for all of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-ux9jn1tRU
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Nov 23, 2020 22:19
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Thanks all, I guess I should amend my question to "how come the original trilogy also faced much executive meddling and yet managed to actually be great?"
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Nov 23, 2020 22:23
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Herostratus posted:Thanks all, I guess I should amend my question to "how come the original trilogy faced so much executive meddling and yet managed to actually be great?" You still largely had one person, Lucas, deciding what the series would be about, instead of a new person making each movie be about whatever they wanted. That can work for a series with no end in sight, or where each movie is supposed to stand on it's own. But it's an odd way to make a planned "trilogy". "This is the first movie of our trilogy!" "Cool, what's next?" "Oh, I have no idea, I'm out of here." Lucas had other people come in and (largely) write the scripts for ESB and ROTJ, but he still oversaw the process. Leigh Brackett, who wrote the first draft for ESB, didn't even know Vader was going to be Luke's father (and died before the second draft), because she included a scene where ghost Anakin showed up on Dagobah. Then Lucas came in and adjusted course a bit. So you had one person deciding where the series was going, even if they changed their mind as they went. I like the sequel trilogy more than most people on SA, but I still think it's downright silly they didn't have someone in charge of the overall story the whole time. I like the movies on their own, but even I have to admit they don't really work together. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 22:28
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Herostratus posted:Thanks all, I guess I should amend my question to "how come the original trilogy also faced much executive meddling and yet managed to actually be great?" Better writing. You'll note that the best of the ST films has the best writer attached.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:28
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https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1330979436053868544 (Also, for those interested, the Concept art is usually in the Mando Download blogs of Star Wars website)  
Vinylshadow fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 22:33
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Herostratus posted:Thanks all, I guess I should amend my question to "how come the original trilogy also faced much executive meddling and yet managed to actually be great?" They were made by people who, almost miraculously, were able to play to eachothers' strengths and compensate for eachothers' weaknesses. Going into the Special Editions and the Prequels, all the folks who were able to cover those weaknesses were pushed aside as Lucas assumed greater control over Star Wars and the people who had the clout to tell him "No." originally kind of disappeared. Another video to watch alongside the SF Debris Shadow's Journey videos is Freddie Wong's How Star Wars Was Saved In The Edit, about how the first draft of A New Hope was kind of an epic disaster fire, and Lucas's then-wife locked herself in an editing booth and chopped the film into the version we now know and love today. Flash forward 30 years, and the same thing happened again. Lucas turned in a first draft of The Phantom Menace that left everyone with him in the screening room gasping in horror and produced the now infamous quote "I may have gone too far in some places". Only there was no Marcia Lucas there to bail him out this time.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:34
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I'm gonna be real disappointed if we don't get a nice coffee table book with high quality paper and high resolution prints of all of the ending concept art because it loving ruuuuuullllleeeeeeesssssss
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Nov 23, 2020 22:38
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I'm gonna be real disappointed if we don't get a nice coffee table book with high quality paper and high resolution prints of all of the ending concept art because it loving ruuuuuullllleeeeeeesssssss We had a "Volume One" book for Season One, so I suspect we're getting a Volume Two at some point Plus, it's usually all neatly bundled into various archives you can usually find on Reddit or Imgur, or links to Imgur from Reddit
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Nov 23, 2020 22:42
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Honestly the Mandalorian has gotten me back into the Star Wars far better than the sequel trilogies did and if Disney was smart they'd figure some way to somehow tie the Star Wars land at the theme parks to the Mandalorian so they can actually save that mess of theming when all they had to do was slap Tatooine on it. I really enjoyed the original trilogy and prequels as a child (I later didn't really like the PT that much until the two Clone Wars cartoons came out when I could see all its flaws), and it's nice using a ton of the BS already set to make a nice thematic story. Bob Iger nearly killed Star Wars lol C-SPAN Caller fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 22:46
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nine-gear crow posted:They were made by people who, almost miraculously, were able to play to eachothers' strengths and compensate for eachothers' weaknesses. Going into the Special Editions and the Prequels, all the folks who were able to cover those weaknesses were pushed aside as Lucas assumed greater control over Star Wars and the people who had the clout to tell him "No." originally kind of disappeared. I'll watch those, thanks! Makes one wonder if the ST could have been saved by a better editor, regardless of directorial issues.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:47
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nine-gear crow posted:Another video to watch alongside the SF Debris Shadow's Journey videos is Freddie Wong's How Star Wars Was Saved In The Edit, about how the first draft of A New Hope was kind of an epic disaster fire, and Lucas's then-wife locked herself in an editing booth and chopped the film into the version we now know and love today. And that was after Lucas had already fired another editor because he told Lucas his edit was poo poo and refused to cut the movie the way George wanted it. If you learn about the pre-production for the OT what you come out learning is that while Lucas created an incredible story framework and had a genius eye for pushing the envelope of special effects, he was also a terrible director, a terrible editor, and a terrible script writer. The OT is a direct result of Lucas ultimately leaning on others to cover those weaknesses to lift up his vision into something extraordinary. The PT is a direct result of Lucas telling all those people to take a hike and trying to write, direct, and dictate the edits all by himself.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:50
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Sydin posted:And that was after Lucas had already fired another editor because he told Lucas his edit was poo poo and refused to cut the movie the way George wanted it. Well the thing about the PT is that he tried to get other people to direct them, but no one would bite. I think it's probably because he went after his big name friends like Steven Spieberg and Ron Howard, but they all told him they wouldn't because they were "his movies". (They were probably worried about loving them up and ruining their careers.) Which is especially funny considering he only directed one of the OT. That being said, I think he felt kind of forced into directing the PT, at which point he figured, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm doing it exactly how I want to.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:57
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Vinylshadow posted:We had a "Volume One" book for Season One, so I suspect we're getting a Volume Two at some point Unfortunately I read some amazon reviews and people said it's a poo poo book with poor quality prints and paper stock used. I want one of those big rear end $150 books with archive quality paper and prints.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:06
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thrawn527 posted:Well the thing about the PT is that he tried to get other people to direct them, but no one would bite. I think it's probably because he went after his big name friends like Steven Spieberg and Ron Howard, but they all told him they wouldn't because they were "his movies". (They were probably worried about loving them up and ruining their careers.) Which is especially funny considering he only directed one of the OT. It's funny then that Ron Howard would go on to direct (half) a Star Wars movie himself 20 years later, but he's now so professionally insulated/near retirement that its failure probably won't dent his career in the slightest. Meanwhile his daughter went on to direct two of the best episodes of the best piece of Star Wars media to come out in years now. That does raise the question though; would Ron Howard, like late 90s Apollo 13-era Ron Howard, have been able to make a good movie out of The Phantom Menace?
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Nov 23, 2020 23:09
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Unfortunately I read some amazon reviews and people said it's a poo poo book with poor quality prints and paper stock used. I want one of those big rear end $150 books with archive quality paper and prints. Is that, this? https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Mandalorian-Imagery-Collectors/dp/178773420X/ This one comes out in a week, and if it's line with the previous ones for the films, should be really solid: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Star-Wars-Mandalorian-Season/dp/141974870X/ref=sr_1_3?crid=J8GY7ENRM8K8
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Nov 23, 2020 23:11
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Sydin posted:Imagine making a score for a movie series and then twenty years later they want you to come back and do it again. Then another twenty years after that they want you to do it a third time. John Williams should've just said "No, you get Joseph" Just this for all of the sequels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ebjptd6Kgo
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Nov 23, 2020 23:22
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:I worked on FFG's Star Wars RPG from 2011 (pre-release) until a year or two ago. I was the "ships and vehicles" guy and specialized in ships, speeders, guns, and gear. I worked on all three lines, nearly every book, and the three prequel/Clone Wars expansions. If you have a favorite spaceship, gun, droid, or piece of kit in that game, chances are I wrote it. If you're the ships and vehicles guy can you tell me why I never received my copy of the Starships and Speeders book that I ordered in January? It's the only one I'm missing to have the complete line. 
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Nov 23, 2020 23:29
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AdmiralViscen posted:Do you seriously think that “Disney Corporation” and “SJWs” are comparable forces in the direction of movies produced by Disney Corporation Oh hell no. My point was that angry fuckboys do. C-SPAN Caller posted:Honestly the Mandalorian has gotten me back into the Star Wars far better than the sequel trilogies did and if Disney was smart they'd figure some way to somehow tie the Star Wars land at the theme parks to the Mandalorian so they can actually save that mess of theming when all they had to do was slap Tatooine on it. Mando's helmet, gun, and armor are on the wall in Dok Ondar's And the theming in Batuu is loving insanely good, what are you on about 
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Nov 23, 2020 23:30
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nine-gear crow posted:That does raise the question though; would Ron Howard, like late 90s Apollo 13-era Ron Howard, have been able to make a good movie out of The Phantom Menace? The Phantom Menace is closer to a "good movie" than the other two prequels, given how bad Lucas is at actually directing in that hypothetical Howard probably could've done it.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:32
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Teek posted:Is that, this? Yes the first one was the one I had seen before. Hadn't seen the second but now I'm gonna keep my eyes open and maybe even go to a Barnes and Nobles to see it in person before deciding to buy. Thanks for the heads up!
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Nov 23, 2020 23:35
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Epi Lepi posted:If you're the ships and vehicles guy can you tell me why I never received my copy of the Starships and Speeders book that I ordered in January? Beats me. I haven't gotten my comp copy yet! I'm just a freelancer, I don't have anything to do with that kinda thing. After all the FFG/Asmodee drama went down we've had a hell of a time getting our comps despite them being in our contracts. I haven't done any work for FFG since they spun the RPG department off. Last thing I did for them was a Genesys thing.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:36
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:Beats me. I haven't gotten my comp copy yet! I'm just a freelancer, I don't have anything to do with that kinda thing. After all the FFG/Asmodee drama went down we've had a hell of a time getting our comps despite them being in our contracts. I haven't done any work for FFG since they spun the RPG department off. Last thing I did for them was a Genesys thing. Are you allowed to say what the gently caress happened/is happening over there? The only reason I followed FFG for so long was the LOTR LCG and all their RPG books so I'm out on them now. Over the last almost 10 years I got used to "normal" FFG delays but poo poo has been so much worse, at least for the products I cared about, the last few years.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:40
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Arcsquad12 posted:March of the Resistance is just the Trade Federation March which is just the Nazi March from Last Crusade. John Williams does good stuff but he also has just been copying his own music for 20 years now. Listening to the first two Harry Potters movies and it's clear how similar they are to the Pequels.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:41
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Thom12255 posted:John Williams does good stuff but he also has just been copying his own music for 20 years now. Listening to the first two Harry Potters movies and it's clear how similar they are to the Pequels. Hes 88 years old, of course he doesn't care anymore and hasn't for a while.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:45
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Thom12255 posted:John Williams does good stuff but he also has just been copying his own music for 20 years now. Listening to the first two Harry Potters movies and it's clear how similar they are to the Pequels. If I'm recalling correctly Williams was really strapped for time in 2001-02 because he was working on Clones and Chamber of Secrets back to back and also had Catch Me if You Can coming up all in a really narrow time frame. All three films share a fairly muted soundtrack that is more about ambient moody vibes than straight bombast. The bombast is there but the low key atmosphere music is really similar across all three.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:If I'm recalling correctly Williams was really strapped for time in 2001-02 because he was working on Clones and Chamber of Secrets back to back and also had Catch Me if You Can coming up all in a really narrow time frame. All three films share a fairly muted soundtrack that is more about ambient moody vibes than straight bombast. The bombast is there but the low key atmosphere music is really similar across all three. And it was so frenetic a time that the Coruscant chase music somehow ended up in the Quiddich scene. Literally. That's an actual mistake that happened.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:47
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hobbesmaster posted:The Phantom Menace is closer to a "good movie" than the other two prequels, given how bad Lucas is at actually directing in that hypothetical Howard probably could've done it. I dunno, 3 > 1 > 2 IMHO.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:27
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thrawn527 posted:Well the thing about the PT is that he tried to get other people to direct them, but no one would bite. I think it's probably because he went after his big name friends like Steven Spieberg and Ron Howard, but they all told him they wouldn't because they were "his movies". (They were probably worried about loving them up and ruining their careers.) Ehh, I dunno, I could just as easily see it being that they were worried about butting heads with him and damaging their relationships with him.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:27
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Or maybe they just know how much Star Wars means to him and that it’s his vision overall
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Nov 24, 2020 00:30
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thrawn527 posted:Well the thing about the PT is that he tried to get other people to direct them, but no one would bite. I think it's probably because he went after his big name friends like Steven Spieberg and Ron Howard, but they all told him they wouldn't because they were "his movies". (They were probably worried about loving them up and ruining their careers.) However, I can strongly believe that watching Kirschner/Marquand and maybe even Howard himself after directing Willow, thinking, "George, working for you would ruin our friendship." Edit: EFB
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Nov 24, 2020 00:32
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In surprised Joe Johnston hasn't been approached to do a Star War.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:41
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I know I’m a little late to soundtrack chat, but I really, really didn’t like “March of the Resistance”, and was surprised to find myself in a vanishingly small minority on that front. It would probably help if I had the music theory knowledge to properly articulate why I don’t like it, but c’est la vie.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:45
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Mywhatacleanturtle posted:I know I’m a little late to soundtrack chat, but I really, really didn’t like “March of the Resistance”, and was surprised to find myself in a vanishingly small minority on that front. It sounds pompous, more like parade music than action-oriented scrappy underdog music.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:51
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Rose’s theme is a better scrappy under dog theme. It’s full of hope. It’s really good.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:51
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Thom12255 posted:John Williams does good stuff but he also has just been copying his own music for 20 years now. Listening to the first two Harry Potters movies and it's clear how similar they are to the Pequels. That's been true for longer than 20 years. Love the guy but he's always cribbed from himself.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:55
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CelticPredator posted:Rose’s theme is a better scrappy under dog theme. It’s full of hope. It’s really good. Easily the best new theme of Last Jedi. I do like the March theme that plays when Rey is following Luke around the island. I think that part plays during The Spark on the OST? It's a much better theme for the Resistance since it is small but determined. March of the Resistance comes out swinging but it feels less associated with the Resistance than it feels like it is announcing to the audience "look the rebel heroes are back!"
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Nov 24, 2020 01:02
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To me it’s more of Poe’s theme, as it always blasts when he shows up. Pompous and a bit arrogant like the character.
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Nov 24, 2020 01:06
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I don't mind it and I love how it builds up during the flight over the lake on Takodana but I just like the TLJ theme better. More quiet motifs that grow into full on defiance as the resistance is reborn. I also like the Fin and Poe theme a lot more and it sucks we only hear it twice.
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Nov 24, 2020 01:11
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