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Alexandrian could've also handled it better by just pointing out the problem with the flowchart and explaining why small creators may have a problem with the inherent assumptions in it instead of stomping around and accusing the flowchart maker of forcing him to be racist
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Nov 28, 2020 01:49
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Neat way to find out I'm blocked by the Alexandrian. I should probably get a t-shirt made to go with my "blocked by Mike Mearls" one.
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Nov 28, 2020 01:49
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The Chairman posted:Alexandrian could've also handled it better by just pointing out the problem with the flowchart and explaining why small creators may have a problem with the inherent assumptions in it instead of stomping around and accusing the flowchart maker of forcing him to be racist That's literally what he did though - he's pointing out that the setup of the flowchart makes it impossible for him to work with people of colour. It's the same issue. It's not the Matt Bors comic where he's going "oh man I hate to be hiring Nazis but you said I couldn't hire Black people;" he's making it clear that there's no option for him to hire people of colour period if this is the standard, and how stupid and bad that is from representation/ethical/legal perspectives. the "I can only hire white people" part of his response is because that's the only option the chart gives him, not because he's making an unfounded accusation just to get more clicks or whatever.
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Nov 28, 2020 01:53
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Arivia posted:That's literally what he did though - he's pointing out that the setup of the flowchart makes it impossible for him to work with people of colour. It's the same issue. It's not the Matt Bors comic where he's going "oh man I hate to be hiring Nazis but you said I couldn't hire Black people;" he's making it clear that there's no option for him to hire people of colour period if this is the standard, and how stupid and bad that is from representation/ethical/legal perspectives. Yeah, but then he also accused the guy of forcing him to be racist
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Nov 28, 2020 01:54
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The Chairman posted:Yeah, but then he also accused the guy of forcing him to be racist No he didn't. Go ahead and show that. I looked at his tweets this afternoon, he doesn't say anything of the like. There's an out of context quote from Leon-Gambetta that got put in this thread.
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Nov 28, 2020 01:59
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Arivia posted:That's literally what he did though - he's pointing out that the setup of the flowchart makes it impossible for him to work with people of colour. It's the same issue. It's not the Matt Bors comic where he's going "oh man I hate to be hiring Nazis but you said I couldn't hire Black people;" he's making it clear that there's no option for him to hire people of colour period if this is the standard, and how stupid and bad that is from representation/ethical/legal perspectives. I think that pretty much everyone in the thread understands what he's saying, we're saying he's communicating this in a needlessly aggressive and confrontational manner that makes him look like an rear end in a top hat and that him responding to the OT in the first place is a dumb fight to pick.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:08
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KingKalamari posted:I think that pretty much everyone in the thread understands what he's saying, we're saying he's communicating this in a needlessly aggressive and confrontational manner that makes him look like an rear end in a top hat and that him responding to the OT in the first place is a dumb fight to pick to begin with. nah people (tree and lemoncurdistan) have been using this as a reason to go after justin alexander period as a character assassination thing
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Nov 28, 2020 02:10
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Arivia posted:nah people (tree and lemoncurdistan) have been using this as a reason to go after justin alexander period as a character assassination thing ...Because they think he's behaving like a dickhead. You realize there's not a logical disconnect between what I said and what you said, right?
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Nov 28, 2020 02:11
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KingKalamari posted:...Because they think he's behaving like a dickhead. You realize there's not a logical disconnect between what I said and what you said, right? No, this is founded on years of disliking him because a lot of people here misread what he wrote about 4e and have hated him ever since. Getting to pin being a racist on him now is too good to pass up, better finish the job off!
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Nov 28, 2020 02:15
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I would contend thatquote:Frankly, anyone who thinks that I *should* only be hiring white people should get the gently caress outta my timeline. is not really forming the basis of a welcoming critique
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Nov 28, 2020 02:18
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I mean, he was really very exceptionally dumb about 4e. But I think I can disassociate that mechanically from his current hot take that some hyperbolic flowchart is both literal and directly applicable to him, the real victim.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:21
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Arivia posted:No, this is founded on years of disliking him because a lot of people here misread what he wrote about 4e and have hated him ever since. Getting to pin being a racist on him now is too good to pass up, better finish the job off! Uh, [citation needed]?
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Nov 28, 2020 02:21
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KingKalamari posted:Uh, [citation needed]? I had to be reminded of who he was! I think he blocked me on twitter over those "Things We Hate About D&D" episodes.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would contend that And yet we'd all be applauding it if it was directed at nazis saying you should racially segregate your gaming groups. The message is just as stupid when it's coming from a person of colour setting rules about who can engage in streaming RPGs together, and it is literally what the flowchart says to Alexander about his projects. The responses are a mix of "yes, you need to give up half of your project to a person of colour permanently" and "no being friends is fine why don't you have any friends of colour" as a very loud dogwhistle painting him as a racist or white supremacist. People aren't engaging with the actual flowchart's absurdity, but are pushing past it to promote identity politics at all costs. It's hosed! And people here are doing it too.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:23
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KingKalamari posted:Uh, [citation needed]? here you go: That Old Tree posted:Just a refresher: "The Alexandrian", modestly well-known OSR guy and famous/infamous for "dissociated mechanics", has recently been in charge of Atlas's RPGs. Lemon-Lime posted:Posting that you don't care about a prominent RPG industry figure being a racist dumbass is not a very good look. Both Tree and Lemon-Lime (previously LemonCurdistan) have been pretty public about disliking Alexander on the basis of his dissociated mechanics critiques of 4e.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:26
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theironjef posted:I had to be reminded of who he was! I think he blocked me on twitter over those "Things We Hate About D&D" episodes. Was he the one that did that article about 4e that coined that weird "gamist/narrativist/simulationist" rhetoric? Arivia posted:here you go: I meant a citation on this weird conspiracy theory you've trotted out that they only take issue with what he's saying because of some past grudge. Have you ever thought that maybe they just disagree with your assessment of the situation and think he's being a dick? I know that's the position I'm coming from...
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Nov 28, 2020 02:28
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I would also like to go on public record as disliking Justin Alexander for his disingenuous critiques of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:29
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KingKalamari posted:Was he the one that did that article about 4e that coined that weird "gamist/narrativist/simulationist" rhetoric? Pretty sure GNS was Ron Edwards and that predates this guy. This guy is "Disassociated Mechanics" or to sum that up in a mean way, "D&D changed some names and organized things and now I can't see the pretty redhead, just the ones and zeros." Honestly though the only thing I remember reading about him and 4e was a hot take about saving throws being made by target instead of attacker, which meant that a player was the only person doing anything during their own turn. No other player was involved! It had killed collaborative engagement! Of course, that leaves one wondering why players are inflicting conditions on other players that require saving throws, and also discounts the Immediate Interrupt/Reaction tags that kept players engaged on each other's turns just fine. He was also perturbed that Clerics could use their individual powers with weapon tags to attack all four defenses, wondering what the functional difference between enchanting a mace to target Will instead of Reflex actually could possibly look like. I guess he didn't want to consider that the one that targets Reflex is an enchantment that makes your attacks extra fast or hard to see or similar, while the Will targeting one was somehow mentally controlled, perhaps a blinding light that compelled the enemy to hold still as the blow neared. Probably just an oversight. theironjef fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 02:30
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KingKalamari posted:I meant a citation on this weird conspiracy theory you've trotted out that they only take issue with what he's saying because of some past grudge. Have you ever thought that maybe they just disagree with your assessment of the situation and think he's being a dick? I know that's the position I'm coming from... No, I'm saying that their past bias is why both of them leapt to call Alexander racist over this, as an uncharitable and bad faith interpretation of his response to the flowchart. Not just a jackass, but flat out racist, which has much more meaningful stigma attached to it. theironjef posted:Pretty sure GNS was Ron Edwards and that predates this guy. This guy is "Disassociated Mechanics" or "D&D changed some names and organized things and now I can't see the pretty redhead, just the ones and zeros." That would also be a bad misreading, as Alexander never said anything of the sort when criticizing 4e, even in the original essay which he apologized for being unclear and replaced.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:30
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My favourite store moved at the end of October. I can't really blame them-- their sales area was slightly wider than a transport truck's back end and roughly as long, and the basement where they ran Magic tournaments was just as tiny, not to mention that city council seems hell-bent on killing the downtown. Unfortunately they've moved out to a spot that you basically need a car to get to and from, in a building where the only signage is a bunch of vertical banners hung five stories up. I'm not even sure theirs merited a spot on one of them. I wish them well. The folks who own the store are good people, and I've been buying from them for something like thirty years, but there's no way I'm spending the better part of an hour on a bus each way to shop with them any more.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:42
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We had two game stores in the area; the game bar with board games and booze closed permanently, and the more traditional game store closed for a bit and then re-opened in the suburbs right before covid struck. I hope they're doing okay. 
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Nov 28, 2020 02:44
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Bieeanshee posted:My favourite store moved at the end of October. I can't really blame them-- their sales area was slightly wider than a transport truck's back end and roughly as long, and the basement where they ran Magic tournaments was just as tiny, not to mention that city council seems hell-bent on killing the downtown. I'm roughly in the middle of San Diego, so there are two stores still around with driving distance of me. I make routine early morning pilgrimages to one of them to buy stuff (when it's empty still), even if it's just booster packs or hitting up the used shelf, just to help them truck along. The other is owned by an especially virulent libertarian and it's no mask happy hour in there every drat day. It's a lot closer and I went in once to try and support them, and the maskless crowd wouldn't even disperse from around the register to let me buy a thing. So gently caress em. If they die it was truly his choice.
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Nov 28, 2020 02:46
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https://twitter.com/bleongambetta/status/1332463986844069892 lol https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1150750185322102787 I agree the chart is loving stupid as goddamn hell. As like an actual guiding document But it at the very least is a list of things that you should consider about your group of players and your community when hosting non-white and/or lgtbq people. But also this dude isn't worth defending lol Dexo fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 02:49
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I kinda hate Alexandrian for the dissociated mechanics bullshit, but I could care less about his argument here. I think the flowchart is kinda dumb. It's also kinda dumb to argue this much about it.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:00
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Dexo posted:But also this dude isn't worth defending lol There's a lot more to a person than just out of context screenshots of their tweets. Justin Alexander is a very good critic and designer of RPGs (in my opinion, and not just D&D or related things) and has a lot of critical pieces that are helpful for explaining and exploring things a lot of people in this subforum think about! But the groupthink around the 4e/badwrongfun group here has declared him Bad, and this whole discussion is an effort to now label him as racist so that he can be even more Bad and no one ever needs to consider him again.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:00
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theironjef posted:I make routine early morning pilgrimages to one of them to buy stuff (when it's empty still), even if it's just booster packs or hitting up the used shelf, just to help them truck along. You're good people. If I drove I'd be shopping with them still, but getting there and back on the bus is an enormous pain in the rear end even without COVID or recovering from this spinal injury. 
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Nov 28, 2020 03:00
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Arivia posted:There's a lot more to a person than just out of context screenshots of their tweets. I'm sure he is a very good designer. I've seen his write ups and reviews on some bad 5e modules. But also who cares? I don't give a gently caress about 4e and the drama related to that. I wasn't around for that nonsense. Motherfuck anyone who posts unironically pushing reverse racism as a response to people saying hey maybe representation is good. Like come the gently caress on, you are bringing up his designer chops as if that loving matters at all to the current conversation. I don't think there is such a thing as cancelling someone that's not my intent I don't know if he's racist or whatever , if you like his poo poo then like and buy his poo poo. He isn't like the most evil bad dude in the world just a white dude who brings up reverse racism. Which sucks but isn't exactly uncommon from white people I interact with or see. Don't defend people making charges of reverse racism tho. Dexo fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 03:11
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Arivia posted:There's a lot more to a person than just out of context screenshots of their tweets. You know what? I definitely was biased in my OP. I wouldn't have given a poo poo if he was some random nobody and I knew nothing of him before this. And maybe this was a little too helldumpy. That's my bad. I especially regret that it's sort of making GBS threads up the middle of a pleasant conversation about FLGSs. Sorry, thread. But I'd still think what he did was a racist thing. Sincerely, and with more than a few second's consideration. Not hoods and burning crosses racist, but still racist. 
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Nov 28, 2020 03:17
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I like the idea that saying a dude said racist things is actually a fifth dimensional chess move to silence his games criticism, that’s a sensible position for someone to have all right.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:19
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That Old Tree posted:You know what? I definitely was biased in my OP. I wouldn't have given a poo poo if he was some random nobody and I knew nothing of him before this. And maybe this was a little too helldumpy. That's my bad. I especially regret that it's sort of making GBS threads up the middle of a pleasant conversation about FLGSs. Sorry, thread. No, don't apologize, are you kidding me? Arivia just went all the way around and compared the chart to "nazis saying you should racially segregate your gaming groups." That's a hosed up thing to say, and I'm not going to stand for her brow-beating people into thinking that you were in the wrong just because you've also made the entirely correct observation that Alexander has been a shithead multiple, multiple times.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:22
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Dexo posted:I'm sure he is a very good designer. I've seen his write ups and reviews on some bad 5e modules. But also who cares? I don't give a gently caress about 4e and the drama related to that. I wasn't around for that nonsense. He's not making charges of reverse racism though? I don't understand why people keep strawmanning Alexander in this argument. He's not said racism once that I can see (I might have missed a tweet); he's pointed out that the flowchart makes it impossible for him to partner with, hire, or contract a person of colour to work on a stream with. It's not an absurd response because it's the actual truth statement of that flowchart; he further points out that relying on hiring people of colour that are friends and who trust him implicitly is a really bad strategy legally and ethically for him as a person of authority in the industry. He's responding to this because this flowchart makes it impossible for him to actually work with people of colour for his own streaming, and for work he does with Atlas Games. And he is unequivocally stating that he refuses to restrict his hiring, partnerships, contracts or guests to white people, because that's really loving racist and not what a white person trying to be inclusive to the industry should be doing. That's not reverse racism. That's a logical flaw in that entirely horrible flowchart, and THAT is what he's responding to.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:26
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Arivia posted:And he is unequivocally stating that he refuses to restrict his hiring, partnerships, contracts or guests to white people, because that's really loving racist and not what a white person trying to be inclusive to the industry should be doing. Why is it that instead of saying "that chart is impossible to follow, so I will consider hiring POC even if they're not my friends", he then takes the interpretation of the chart that leads him towards only hiring white people?
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Nov 28, 2020 03:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:No, don't apologize, are you kidding me? Arivia just went all the way around and compared the chart to "nazis saying you should racially segregate your gaming groups." Charts can be bad, you know. Like individually a lot of the pieces aren't bad! Absolutely, make sure that people of colour aren't just tokens and have creative control/are benefiting from the process. But the formatting and the framing and the language of that tweet - in total, because it's specifically posited as a single one-stop-shop for exactly how to do this correctly - are horrible. Alexander isn't incorrect in his criticism, because the format and the language and the framing DO say he doesn't have any options. So his response of "no, I refuse to limit my works to just white people" is a valid response, and yes, it is something people here would be cheering on if it was responding to white nationalists instead of a really really loving badly framed hot take on twitter.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:31
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dwarf74 posted:I think the flowchart is kinda dumb. It's also kinda dumb to argue this much about it.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:Why is it that instead of saying "that chart is impossible to follow, so I will consider hiring POC even if they're not my friends", he then takes the interpretation of the chart that leads him towards only hiring white people? He literally says that in his original set of responses: https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1332427098473041921?s=20 I'm getting the feeling that you didn't read any of the tweets beyond what Tree linked here (and which Tree has now admitted were intentionally inflammatory and helldumpy.)
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Nov 28, 2020 03:34
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Froghammer posted:yyyyyeah, this is reminding me of the Hannah Gadsby bit which (sadly) got cut from Douglas where she more or less says, "If you're a white man and hear me complain about white men and feel a little weird because you broadly agree with what I'm saying but don't like being lumped in with the chuds, then you're fine and don't worry about it and let it go" The problem with that comparison is that Gadsby is complaining to a closed audience. RPG streaming's main audience and communication space is RPG Twitter; the person who made and posted the diagram is a prominent woman of colour streamer themselves; and RPG discussions on Twitter are very purity police and very quick to judge with the major group being the 5e/streaming crowd. So if (and when, as Alexander points out, he's been thinking and planning already) Alexander and/or Atlas Games don't do things that meet up to this single tweet which presents itself as the absolute authority, there will be significant blowback/harm/damage because this form of purity policing isn't being met. He can't just say "I'm not like that" because this is specifically an attack on him and his works that doesn't allow him any space to actually do better. e: like if you click through to twitter the "tabletop roleplaying games" topic is FULL of stuff about D&D not feeling like a "safe" game because WotC is slowrolling fixing racist parts of 5e, and then people trying to jump off and promise "hey, my game is going to not be racist and it's still going to be d20 so it'll feel like home!" etc etc. It's a mess, and it's consuming pretty much the entirety of the air around the hobby - not criticisms of racism, not actual critical discussions about games, but endless Twitter posturing and drama. Arivia fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 03:39
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Arivia posted:He can't just say "I'm not like that" because this is specifically an attack on him and his works that doesn't allow him any space to actually do better. Unless I missed something at no point was the chart addressed to him. Neither would I characterize the chart as an "attack" in the first place.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:45
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Yeah, the only reason it's about him now because he was dumb enough to open his mouth in the first place, and now people across Twitter are taking note of his name to tell each other to steer clear of him and projects he's attached to, because he's being a complete rear end about this. He's not going to end up at some brilliant piece of logic that's going to make everyone side with him, he's just running his name, and by extension the name of everyone who works with him, through the mud. It's like when someone says 'All men are trash.' If you have to stop and argue with them about it, yes, you are who they're talking about. The rest of us just move on with our lives.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:Unless I missed something at no point was the chart addressed to him. The chart was specifically posited as the absolute necessary steps for people of colour to be equitably involved in streaming groups. It's written to people of colour as the target in the chart itself, but the tweet specifically challenges anyone streaming RPGs to also follow it as the minimum requirements for a stream to be acceptable to people of colour as participants. And yes, I would and do characterize a badly written treatment with an acknowledgment of significant social and political power behind it that brooks no disagreement (replies are turned off) as an attack on others because it imposes a singular absolute statement as the only acceptable one.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:50
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“Brooks no disagreement (replies are turned off)” is a hell of a statement, here.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:56
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