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TheFluff posted:No, that's still the case for basically all of the game's mythology. There's no deeper meaning to e.g. the archons being named after demons in Ars Goethia, they're just grabbing cool names and some vague thematic things out of a hat basically. It's sorta analogous to technobabble in sci-fi. using angelic/demonic/zodiac etc theming is so common it may as well be a genre staple. why waste the brain energy coming up with ten thousand wholly unique characters for your character collection game when you can flip thru wikipedia and then draw Sandalphon as a cute guy in high heels
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Nov 29, 2020 05:39
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Archonex posted:You keep saying this, and yet you've provided no proof outside of making a comparison to Lord of the Rings being a deep dive into history (Which it's not. It's main influences were him being inspired by his Christian beliefs, some real life experiences he had, and older stories he read when younger. It's mainly Silmarillion that gave the setting the level of depth it's known for today.) while ignoring the reams of lore this setting has been setting up that also coincides with the themes within the narrative we've seen thus far. That's not what I tried to say with the comparison to Lord of the Rings. What I said was referencing Michael Drout's analogy of LotR being a "textual ruin", a text that appears to have been created within a long textual tradition that the reader is not familiar with (and some of which not even the "writer" was familiar with - recall that LotR's meta-narrative is that it's supposed to be a specific edited copy of the Red Book of Westmarch). A reference is a way of conveying more information than the literal meaning of the words, assuming your audience is familiar with the concept being referenced. What Tolkien does is reference his own world's history (mainly unpublished at the time LotR came out, mind), and the references are all internally consistent even if the reader couldn't possibly be familiar with the referenced concepts at the time. This is a big part of what gives the impression of the "textual ruin". Seriously though just go watch Drout's lecture, it's good and it's a pity it seems he never got around to publishing it in book form. In contrast to this, what anime and a lot of video games do is reference Wikipedia articles on mythological concepts, mostly chosen at random. When I say there is no deeper meaning to these references, that's what I mean. Basically, going "but what does it meeeeaaan, duuuude?" about video game lore is completely pointless. It means nothing, or rather it only has meaning insofar it makes the video game lore seem cooler. I really don't think there's any need to provide "proof" of this. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 05:48
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TheFluff posted:That's not what I tried to say with the comparison to Lord of the Rings. What I said was referencing Michael Drout's analogy of LotR being a "textual ruin", a text that appears to have been created within a long textual tradition that the reader is not familiar with (and some of which not even the "writer" was familiar with - recall that LotR's meta-narrative is that it's supposed to be a specific edited copy of the Red Book of Westmarch). Okay, you're not understanding that i'm saying that to some degree it appears Genshin is at least partially doing the textual ruin thing too. It's self referential to it's own history in a way that most games aren't. You haven't actually refuted this at all, and instead just waved your hands at the naming schema. When in reality as someone else pointed out this is literally probably only the result of the translators trying to make concepts understandable to an english audience. And it fits too, so why bother about it? I mean, just in the first town alone you've got a literal library of books in the first town. Some of which detail the history of the setting and it becomes obvious are referencing both known and unknown concepts within the setting as the game progresses. Hell, like 40-50% of the theory crafting people do is directly because the lore and history of the setting is being referenced (Sometimes recursively, sometimes in the form of an embedded story to boot!) for future current and past events. Likewise, half of the fun for some of the people in this thread is trying to as you put it familiarize ourselves with concepts and things that we couldn't be familiar with at this point in the story without comparing and contrasting both in world and real world concepts and things. It's kind of shallow to just go "It's like all ANIME and it's a theme park!" when the game you're criticizing is explicitly doing literally exactly the same thing you're giving credit to Lord of the Rings for. That they don't have the budget to go ham on it and just write up a dictionary of terminology and events (Though I would argue literally anything to do with Fischl or the stories she's obsessed with might qualify to a small degree. :v) doesn't somehow invalidate the point of the naming itself. Like, are you seriously going to sit there and try to tell me that them using a Hebrew word that references the word Ark is not relevant and it's just anime's bad habits rearing it's ugly head? Even though we've got literally dozens of references elsewhere within the franchise that yes, it may in fact well be. All while we've received literally no counter-evidence suggest it's just a red herring so far? And that's' not the only thing. There's all sorts of stuff like that that suggests the writers at least tried to put a fair bit of effort into some of it. Archonex fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 05:57
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Mailer posted:Wow, co-op is a dumpster fire. The biggest highlight was being kicked from a Fischl/Diluc/Venti team for picking Kaeya. Jump in the discord and do it with goons!
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Nov 29, 2020 06:01
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Mailer posted:Wow, co-op is a dumpster fire. The biggest highlight was being kicked from a Fischl/Diluc/Venti team for picking Kaeya. If they could fix the lag issue where some people just desync the match by a few seconds it'd probably be fine. As it is it's a crap shoot whether you get a bunch of people with decent connections or just get a rubber banding mess with bad input time. If you need help i'm available right now. Also, pretty sure the goon discord has someone, like S.J. said.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:04
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Archonex posted:Okay, you're not understanding what i'm saying I don't think you're actually understanding what I'm saying either so I'll just drop this here.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:05
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Mailer posted:Wow, co-op is a dumpster fire. The biggest highlight was being kicked from a Fischl/Diluc/Venti team for picking Kaeya.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:14
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TheFluff posted:I don't think you're actually understanding what I'm saying either so I'll just drop this here. If it helps, I don't understand either of you  But I love the lore posts, you guys are nuts and I enjoy your insights
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Nov 29, 2020 06:16
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TheFluff posted:I don't think you're actually understanding what I'm saying either so I'll just drop this here. quote:That's not what I tried to say with the comparison to Lord of the Rings. What I said was referencing Michael Drout's analogy of LotR being a "textual ruin", a text that appears to have been created within a long textual tradition that the reader is not familiar with (and some of which not even the "writer" was familiar with - recall that LotR's meta-narrative is that it's supposed to be a specific edited copy of the Red Book of Westmarch). Genshin doesn't do this. To wit, pretty much no game (Or any modern piece of literature, movie, or really any sort of media, for that matter.) does. So i'm not sure how that's relevant to the conversation at all. It's not an anime thing. It's a "most authors typically would never bother to do such a thing." sort of thing. I mean, setting aside the issue of textual tradition just as a quick one off example try and name how many books, movies, and games are presented in verse? I'm going to bet the number is pretty low. Trying to compare a book written by an academic and linguist of multiple languages against other media tends to put LOTR far ahead of the pack. quote:A reference is a way of conveying more information than the literal meaning of the words, assuming your audience is familiar with the concept being referenced. What Tolkien does is reference his own world's history (mainly unpublished at the time LotR came out, mind), and the references are all internally consistent even if the reader couldn't possibly be familiar with the referenced concepts at the time. This is a big part of what gives the impression of the "textual ruin". Seriously though just go watch Drout's lecture, it's good and it's a pity it seems he never got around to publishing it in book form. Aside from that, the only other thing I saw you bring up also referenced the idea of events within the setting the reader is not familiar with. IE: Aside from the other possible meaning, what it appears you were referring to is a form of nested world building. Which LOTR and Genshin have both done, as i've tried to point out. And it is distinctly not all literal one to one naming references. Which is part of why you have some lore nerds bashing their heads on certain topics of the greater plot/meta plot. If this is not what you're saying then what are you saying? I mean, if your thing is that the devs need to have the sort of insanely complex way of presenting the story according to real world poetry and past literature within the setting itself then that goes back to the complaints that other people had about games that go too far up their own rear end --- that unlike reading a book parsing out the plot in a game can get tedious if it's obscured by layers of irrelevant data that add literally nothing to the plot or it's presentation. Archonex fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 06:20
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New banner looks to be Zhongli, Xinyan, Chongyun, and Razor. Last two seem like Nice Boys.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:21
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Chongyun is the only og 4* I'm missing so I'm looking forward to it. Kinda disappointed that the accompanying weapon banner won't have a decent 4* rateup for John Lee but that's gachalife
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Nov 29, 2020 06:27
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Mailer posted:Wow, co-op is a dumpster fire. The biggest highlight was being kicked from a Fischl/Diluc/Venti team for picking Kaeya. Any character can be viable *in general* but before my account got stolen I did a lot of domains multiplayer. A lot of the artifact domains are set up to be specifically hostile against the element of the artifacts provided. For example, a super popular one is the one that gives fire artifacts. This domain punishes you if you bring a fire unit to it. If you join a multiplayer game, you will often see 1-2 people trying to bring their fire unit to the party, despite the fact that they will be punished for this. Specifically, in the 40-45 version of that domain, every enemy is electric, and if you cause overload, you take a ton of damage. I have played and watched as players have suicided and then blamed the healer for not keeping them alive. It's enough to make me want to tear my hair out.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:30
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Do we know what next month's shop characters are going to be? Not sure if I should spring on Bennett or wait.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:31
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YES bread posted:Chongyun is the only og 4* I'm missing so I'm looking forward to it. Kinda disappointed that the accompanying weapon banner won't have a decent 4* rateup for John Lee but that's gachalife i don't think there's really an existing gacha 4* that is significantly better for him than either prototype tbh. they could've run Favonius on it instead of the current banner but options in that whole weapon class are narrow atm.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:35
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Archonex posted:Do we know what next month's shop characters are going to be? Not sure if I should spring on Bennett or wait. I would jump on Bennet anyway, because he's great.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:37
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Some Numbers posted:I would jump on Bennet anyway, because he's great. I've already got his C1, which seems like the most useful one I could get on the quick. Is his c2 that good? I'm actually dreading getting his c6. It sounds like it could gently caress up a few builds depending on how the multiplier for vaporize works.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:46
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Archonex posted:Do we know what next month's shop characters are going to be? Not sure if I should spring on Bennett or wait. we won't know until sometime Monday when other servers tick over to the new month.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:48
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dogsicle posted:we won't know until sometime Monday when other servers tick over to the new month. Ah crap, was hoping there was something on the beta or something that indicated it. Thanks anyways.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:57
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TheFluff posted:No, that's still the case for basically all of the game's mythology. There's no deeper meaning to e.g. the archons being named after demons in Ars Goethia, they're just grabbing cool names and some vague thematic things out of a hat basically. It's sorta analogous to technobabble in sci-fi. Technobabble is impenetrable and difficult to understand by design, though. What's going on here is use of the framework of existing mythology/concepts to foreshadow connections; how deep the connections go can vary depending on the writer, so it's generally necessary to observe how a given writer/writing team uses them for a while before you get a decent grasp of the level of thought they put into things, but unlike technobabble, the audience is supposed to understand what's being conveyed. Anime has a bad but earned reputation for just throwing around imagery and naming styles to "look cool" (thanks Evangelion) instead of utilizing them towards a secondary goal, but if you observe how the GI team is incorporating outside concepts into their writing, it's pretty clear there's a thread of logic to some of their choices. I think the writers are committed to a moderate level of foreshadowing and conclusions can be drawn when they choose to put different things under the umbrella of a common theme. We can look at the fact that every Archon we've heard of so far is named after a demon from the Ars Goetia, notice that Paimon is also named after a demon from the Ars Goetia, and know that that there's an implied connection there, even though there's no way to tell whether the connection is "Paimon was once an archon" or "Paimon is a god" or something else. We can look at the fact that Teyvat is the word for "ark" in a language, wonder about the connections of that concept to the world, and suspect that it may be connected to something called Project ARK in a previous game of theirs that they've suggested might be taking place in the same storyline. We can look at the fact that all of the titles of the Fatui Harbingers we've seen reference characters in the commedia dell'arte, and thereby draw conclusions about the titles of the remaining Harbingers and make informed speculations about what their character might be like. The game's connections may not run much deeper than that, but they exist and serve a purpose that isn't just "name sounds cool."
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Nov 29, 2020 07:02
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Bloody Emissary posted:Technobabble is impenetrable and difficult to understand by design, though. What's going on here is use of the framework of existing mythology/concepts to foreshadow connections; how deep the connections go can vary depending on the writer, so it's generally necessary to observe how a given writer/writing team uses them for a while before you get a decent grasp of the level of thought they put into things, but unlike technobabble, the audience is supposed to understand what's being conveyed. the connections dont affect anyone playing the game tho. they're interesting to people reading the back story, but the connections aren't reflected in the actions or dialog of any of the characters, or in the events of the story quests, character quests, or side quests. the closest we've come is a deliberately obscure piece of dialog from a deliberately obscure protagonist during an time-limited quest - and even that doesnt indicate anything specifically about the connections you're discussing, it just raises an ambiguity/unknown. fwiw i think the backstory writers are having the time of their lives linking up all this stuff and dropping hints and easter eggs, but if it becomes the main story it would be a massive tonal and thematic swerve e: admittedly, massive tonal and thematic swerves arent exactly unheard of in eastern media awesmoe fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 07:17
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Archonex posted:Ah crap, was hoping there was something on the beta or something that indicated it. Thanks anyways. Isn't China ahead of the US? Not sure where you live, but Asia will know first.
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Nov 29, 2020 07:26
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Archonex posted:I've already got his C1, which seems like the most useful one I could get on the quick. Is his c2 that good? Bennet C0 or C1 are worth getting absolutely if you don't have them, I don't think the rest of his constellations are very good. C2 in particular is pretty laughable because energy recharge is not his problem.
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Nov 29, 2020 07:31
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The odds are slim and I got no resources for him but I'll continue to hope I get lucky for Zhongli so I can put my one 5* weapon to good use.
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Nov 29, 2020 07:44
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awesmoe posted:the connections dont affect anyone playing the game tho. they're interesting to people reading the back story, but the connections aren't reflected in the actions or dialog of any of the characters, or in the events of the story quests, character quests, or side quests. Yeah, uh, I don't want to disappoint you but Honkai Impact suffered a massive tonal swerve at the end of it's first big arc. They are fully capable of upping the stakes beyond "light hearted travel the world plot" while also retaining the humor and writing. Which is all in all a good thing. There's got to be some weight beyond the first arc that introduces everything. Nor does it have to be an endless misery laden mess from that point onwards. That doesn't mean things didn't get really dark for a little bit before they got better. To give an idea of it: Kiana (Literally the main character!) got Herrsher'd. Which effectively rendered her unplayable and outright dead as far as the rest of the setting was concerned. Otto openly revealed himself as being a dick of tremendous proportions. Himeko (The most overtly heroic character in the story outside of Fu Hua at that point.) put forth a literally superhuman effort to save Kiana and died fighting the Herrsher'd Kiana. She was only able to get Kiana back because she passed on a cure that stopped her from being Honkified (never going stop grinning at that word) due to years of fighting on the front lines. Fu Hua got killed by Otto headshotting her at the start of the mess while she wasn't looking, and she herself was only murdered because she was one of the last surviving humans from the prehistory version of humanity that could give them insight into how to protect themselves. Meaning she understood damned good and well that someone had to step up and stop the Herrsher'd Kiana or else that was it for that iteration of humanity. Even then, things got far lighter after that arc of the story. Maybe even lighter than they were before since most of the protagonists were just doing their thing or because they had coinciding interests before that. The survivors are outright shown making a conscious decision to step up and actually try to do the heroic thing by stopping the antagonists, despite the cost. Some of the killed characters even came back. Heck, given the upcoming update to the game Fu Hua may even get revived. Otto, being the sort of self proclaimed genius that he is overlooked the fact that he essentially dropped her corpse into the Sea of Quanta to safely dispose of it. IE: The thing that is literally the concept of the quantum uncertainty defined in a physical format. Himeko's corpse might have also ended up there, but there's no saying for sure. They're both in the running to show up in Genshin and Honkai as a result of that. But it definitely got dark for a bit. And the cast got dropped by literally about half of it's playable participants in the process of actually fixing the mess Otto made. And by dropped I mean some of them just straight up died tragic or horrible deaths. shimmy shimmy posted:Bennet C0 or C1 are worth getting absolutely if you don't have them, I don't think the rest of his constellations are very good. C2 in particular is pretty laughable because energy recharge is not his problem. That's what I figured. His C2 never looked to good to me. Especially since I have the weirdest luck with getting Favonius weapons. Edit: Also, the connections are definitely reflected in the game. Just as an example we knew stuff about Tartaglia and the Fatui ahead of time as a result of them. Ditto for Diluc and why he's so moody. Heck, in that last case it lends a heck of lot more insight into his character than what you can get in the game itself. Archonex fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 08:13
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Yeah, sorry, I didn't realize you already had him. If you have him at C1, don't bother.
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Nov 29, 2020 08:55
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UltraRed posted:New banner looks to be Zhongli, Xinyan, Chongyun, and Razor. https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/6998 Looks like there won't be a gap between banners too! I'll be ready with my primo at my special wishing spot (hopefully) at reset.
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Nov 29, 2020 08:55
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So, any theorycrafting with Zhongli yet? I'm a little mystified what his role is even supposed to be. Is he just a better Noelle? The thing about his stele resonating with other Geo constructs is really weird, are you actually supposed to pair him with GeoTraveler or Ningguang or something? I think he's super cool and I like his design, I just have no idea what he's for. Ashenai fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 09:22
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Disconnecticus posted:This was completely the answer. A few buffs and Noelle's shield did the trick, ended up with Fischl hardly any time later! Good poo poo! Noelle is actually a member of my regular team. Granted, that's partly because I have a sore lack of characters (been hoarding my primos a bit), but I've been very satisfied with her. I like survivability, and she gives a lot of it.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:31
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Yay for new banner! Also I am literally five and giggle at "Vago Mundo".Mistikman posted:It's enough to make me want to tear my hair out. That's exactly the thing. It has a gimmick, however, in that superconduct does some arbitrary aoe damage. Kaeya and Diona are the real stars in my solo attempts, but they're level 50 and Kaeya is a free character and therefore sucks (according to pubbies). Level 50 is also way too low for supports (according to pubbies). I wonder how fast the Diluc/Fishcl/Venti team wiped. It was definitely a lovely feeling to come out of the mandatory resin spending with a new WL and promptly get told to gently caress off until I pull Qiqi/Chong.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:40
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I'm excited for Zhongli too, but it definitely looks like he'll be in a weird spot from the get-go. His kit is clearly geared toward pairing with another geo, while the game currently treats geo as the red-headed stepchild (dendro was abandoned on the freeway). I don't think people have been theorycrafting very much because there's a lot of unknowns with how he even works and whether his attack chain lends him towards being a decent DPSer. Like, will he pair well with Traveler since they can have a lot of constructs in play at a time, or is there some kind of cap? At the very least, he should be good to have around for his burst, which has insane baseline scaling and additional scaling off HP when ascended.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:41
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gandlethorpe posted:https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/6998 Yesss, I can finally get some constellations for Razor maybe.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:43
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After looking at a few leaks I think Zhongli is going to be similar to Venti; support with great CC (Petrify is a 4s freeze on a 12s CD) and has good damage on his ult, and should work great with the Petra set, but you probably don't want to pair him with another character of his element. The difference is that he also provides strong shields, while having less damage and not being able to suck people into the same spot to group them up as much. That's unless there's something wild like his hold-E detonating geo constructs like the Geo Traveler's rocks or Ningguang's shield, at which point he'll be incredibly strong supporting a Geo character since the effects you can get when those are destroyed are really nice. Also, launching three new claymore characters and having the 4* claymore on the weapon banner be The Bell seems cruel.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:48
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gandlethorpe posted:I'm excited for Zhongli too, but it definitely looks like he'll be in a weird spot from the get-go. His kit is clearly geared toward pairing with another geo, while the game currently treats geo as the red-headed stepchild (dendro was abandoned on the freeway). PREMPTIVELY APPROPRIATELY TIERING HIM "C"
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Nov 29, 2020 09:48
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https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/7000 Hope you don't want those new 5* weapons because they stacked some real dogshit on the 4* rate up.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:49
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You know, he might actually have potential as a main carry with Retracing Bolide. The pulsing geo damage on his E should make it very easy to maintain permanent shields, meaning a constant +40% damage on his normal/charged attacks. Then he can use whatever polearm makes normal/charged attacks hit for the most damage. The special 5* spear looks specifically designed for that, but rofl at rolling that banner. Unfortunately, the only other spears that look great for him as a DPSer are 5* spears or are unreleased 4*s. Whoever in this thread that was upset they had Primordial Jade Spear should definitely try to get geodaddy.
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Nov 29, 2020 10:04
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TheFluff posted:No, that's still the case for basically all of the game's mythology. There's no deeper meaning to e.g. the archons being named after demons in Ars Goethia, they're just grabbing cool names and some vague thematic things out of a hat basically. It's sorta analogous to technobabble in sci-fi. The thing is though, there is no reason for the archons to have those extra names or mention them unless it was important that we know the names exist for some reason, i mean hell, sloop john glee's got 3 names which absolutely underlines the goetic one as being pertinent. I genuinely would have bought the "grabbed from the bag of cool stuff" theory if it had just been venti, but then zhongli, and then the third one revealed is one that pretty much everybody with even the tiniest crumb of exposure knows is a demon, just in case you didn't get it yet. I mean you got to remember that all the stuff Archonex is pointing out about the HI games is actually what happened it's not just fancruft, so mihoyo absolutely have the chops to do this poo poo.
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Nov 29, 2020 10:08
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Even if Zhongli synergizes well with Ninggaung I think I'd have a hard time finding a spot for him. Ning is geo which is pretty much trash for elemental shield-breaking. Definitely want to shove Venti in there since his ult works so unbelievably well with Ningguang, and anemo is also crap vs elemental shields except in very specific situations. Toss in geo Zhongli and that leaves a whopping 1 slot for an actual normal element. Hope you like pelting Fatui skirmishers and abyss mages with approximately a thousand rocks each.
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Nov 29, 2020 10:09
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The only dud on that banner really are the bell and the codex though? and even codex isn't that bad. Dragon's bane is great for support xiang. Warbow is the second best support bow in the game, Lions roar is a good 4* weapon for keqing and bennett carries. Hell, if Xinyan has HP scaling, the bell might end up being good for her
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Nov 29, 2020 10:16
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Vargs posted:Even if Zhongli synergizes well with Ninggaung I think I'd have a hard time finding a spot for him. Ning is geo which is pretty much trash for elemental shield-breaking. Definitely want to shove Venti in there since his ult works so unbelievably well with Ningguang, and anemo is also crap vs elemental shields except in very specific situations. Toss in geo Zhongli and that leaves a whopping 1 slot for an actual normal element. Hope you like pelting Fatui skirmishers and abyss mages with approximately a thousand rocks each. There was a video of Zhongli a while back that I can't seem to find that suggested that one of his abilities turned enemy shields into Geo element. I can't find it again and I really hope it wasn't my eyes playing tricks on me because that would solve a lot of problems a double Geo team would have if they could always turn shields into Geo to destroy.
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Nov 29, 2020 10:32
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Hyper Inferno posted:There was a video of Zhongli a while back that I can't seem to find that suggested that one of his abilities turned enemy shields into Geo element. I can't find it again and I really hope it wasn't my eyes playing tricks on me because that would solve a lot of problems a double Geo team would have if they could always turn shields into Geo to destroy. No, I think what what happened in the video was a geo shield being drained by his hold. That would be busted if he could drain any type of shield. https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/6902 Still, it really is a glaring issue that taking anemo or geo means one less shield you can deal with. Archon help you if you bring both. I imagine when dendro comes along it'll be even more glaring.
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Nov 29, 2020 10:41
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