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Isn't the popular notion of "bushido" as it's understood today mostly made up by a guy in like 1899?
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Dec 4, 2020 23:18
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FreudianSlippers posted:In the Commonwealth of Iceland (930-1262) honour played a huge part in carrying out the law. Basically there was a court system but not any sort of police to carry out the law. So if someone killed your lovely nephew and was sentenced for it it was your job to carry it out and kill him. If you didn't you were without honor which would encourage people to gently caress with you knowing that you weren't going to retaliate. In Norway, according to the Frostating law, this also applied to the king. If a king broke the law then the people of the land was obligated to rally an army against him and anyone that didn't join that army was given a fine. If the king escaped he was banned from ever entering the country again.
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Dec 5, 2020 00:26
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Asterite34 posted:Isn't the popular notion of "bushido" as it's understood today mostly made up by a guy in like 1899? probably. a big part of the current popular conceptions of history were thought up by romantic authors in the 1800s vikings, chivalry, bushido
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Dec 5, 2020 03:46
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Carthag Tuek posted:probably. a big part of the current popular conceptions of history were thought up by romantic authors in the 1800s The Roman Empire ending in 476.
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Dec 5, 2020 03:52
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Druids and the Pagan religion.
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Dec 5, 2020 03:54
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The golden age of a warrior class being during a 200 year period without any wars is amusing.
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Dec 5, 2020 03:56
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FreudianSlippers posted:The golden age of a warrior class being during a 200 year period without any wars is amusing. Makes perfect sense, that's when the most warriors were alive.
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Dec 5, 2020 04:22
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Facebook Aunt posted:Call the lynch mob on Granos. Wait I thought he was dead??
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Dec 5, 2020 05:13
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Asterite34 posted:Isn't the popular notion of "bushido" as it's understood today mostly made up by a guy in like 1899? not quite, there was a ton of ink spent on it when it was still relevant it's true that the modern view of bushido is heavily informed by the Hagakure which was written pretty late in the game by a peacetime samurai with a chip on his shoulder that he didn't get to do more cool war things. but even then, there was still Serious Samurai Stuff happening which he commented on as a contemporary, e.g. throwing shade at the Forty-Seven Ronin despite them doing way more Serious Samurai Stuff than he ever got up to himself.
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Dec 5, 2020 07:33
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Is there a lot of research on when and why these social codes changed in Europe? The 19th century was not a very long time ago, comparatively, and it's a pretty big shift if (as described) it permeated every layer of society in some way. Was it everyone eating dirt in WWI? Or the big shifts in culture post-WWII?
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Dec 5, 2020 10:29
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fella named marx put a end to it 
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Dec 5, 2020 11:04
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Groucho fuckin ruled.
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Dec 5, 2020 11:23
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Red Bones posted:Is there a lot of research on when and why these social codes changed in Europe? The 19th century was not a very long time ago, comparatively, and it's a pretty big shift if (as described) it permeated every layer of society in some way. Was it everyone eating dirt in WWI? Or the big shifts in culture post-WWII? WW1, basically. A lot of the 19th century lifestyle required large bodies of servants just for basic upkeep and maintenance; WW1 called up millions of men, taught many of them technical and organisational skills, and slaughtered most of the next generation of the upper class. Texts written at the time lament how hard it is now to get "proper servants", how difficult it is to fill crappy jobs, and so on. The answer was simply that nobody had liked being junior boot polisher, and now they had sellable job skills and a degree of life experience.
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Dec 5, 2020 13:24
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Solice Kirsk posted:Makes perfect sense, that's when the most warriors were alive. While Europe fought "wars" with "guns", we studied the blade
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Dec 5, 2020 13:49
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Loxbourne posted:WW1, basically. A lot of the 19th century lifestyle required large bodies of servants just for basic upkeep and maintenance; WW1 called up millions of men, taught many of them technical and organisational skills, and slaughtered most of the next generation of the upper class. I think that WWI just finished the process that was in course throughout the 1800s. Urbanization, roads, railroad, literacy and industrialization killed off the old way of life for most people during that period. Romanticism was a reaction to the process , not the preceding state of affairs. By the time poets started romanticizing the simple life, it had already been as good as dead.
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Dec 5, 2020 14:20
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In the years immediately after WW1 most of Europe was literally on the verge of revolution, because an entire generation had just been fed into a never-ending meat grinder, and when everything was over the attitude of the upper classes was that all those oiks and plebs who'd just died by the million should know their place and go back to how everything was before.
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Dec 5, 2020 14:21
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Sweevo posted:In the years immediately after WW1 most of Europe was literally on the verge of revolution, because an entire generation had just been fed into a never-ending meat grinder, and when everything was over the attitude of the upper classes was that all those oiks and plebs who'd just died by the million should know their place and go back to how everything was before. One of the chief reasons why Tsar Nicholas ended up shot was because his cousin George refused to let him come over to Britain. He was worried that if he was brought over there could be a general revolution over an unpopular foreign king being looked after as people were dying.
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Dec 5, 2020 14:54
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Unpopular rich people being looked after while poor people are dying? Now where have I heard that before? 
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Dec 5, 2020 16:00
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Josef bugman posted:One of the chief reasons why Tsar Nicholas ended up shot was because his cousin George refused to let him come over to Britain. He was worried that if he was brought over there could be a general revolution over an unpopular foreign king being looked after as people were dying. And because of what happened to Nicholas during WW2 Britain let in basically every royal family in Europe.
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Dec 5, 2020 16:37
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Loxbourne posted:WW1, basically. A lot of the 19th century lifestyle required large bodies of servants just for basic upkeep and maintenance; WW1 called up millions of men, taught many of them technical and organisational skills, and slaughtered most of the next generation of the upper class. WWI did more to wipe out the French noble houses than the revolution. (since the revolution was mostly lead by the liberals in the nobility and the terror mainly killed peasants and random people) Take the plunge! Okay! posted:I think that WWI just finished the process that was in course throughout the 1800s. Urbanization, roads, railroad, literacy and industrialization killed off the old way of life for most people during that period. Romanticism was a reaction to the process , not the preceding state of affairs. By the time poets started romanticizing the simple life, it had already been as good as dead. I think there's also a sort of a "dead cat bounce" of rural romanticism with the second generation of urban families. You see it in the 1970s with the "back to the land" stuff in the US, and as another example "rural living" video channels are now apparently extremely popular in China. My theory is basically that the second generation is young enough to remember visiting grandma and grandpa in the countryside but aren't old enough to remember all the work or not having modern agricultural aids or having to worry about the weather and crops, so they see it as a bucolic escape from city life and unfulfilling bullshit jobs.
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Dec 8, 2020 11:40
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-Zydeco- posted:Known from the dawn of history by name as that guy who hosed up math the first time
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Dec 11, 2020 02:00
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I used to have this very interesting book about life as a domestic servant in late-victorian Britain onwards to the mid-twentieth century: https://www.amazon.com/Life-below-stairs-Domestic-Victorian/dp/0684155133 It was compiled in the '70s so the author was able to meet people who'd been servants back before the First World War. My copy vanished years ago, unfortunately, but it was a really interesting read, and yeah, the War completely upended the old social order. By the twenties it was becoming harder and harder to get domestic staff - by that time, there was a definite stigma about being a servant, as opposed to working in a shop or a factory. People who in the past would have expected to have a cook and a maid were reduced to maybe having a daily woman to come in and do the cleaning each morning, and if she was reliable they'd count themselves extremely lucky.
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Dec 11, 2020 13:30
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There was not a servant shortage. There was a pay shortage.
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Dec 11, 2020 13:39
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Platystemon posted:There was not a servant shortage. Labour shortages are always pay shortages.
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Dec 11, 2020 13:59
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Just went through the 1850 census for my hometown, a small somewhat poor fishing village. Of 94 families, 11 had a young woman as their tjenestepige (domestic servant). No men are named as tjenestekarl, they were all fishermen and lived either at home or had started their own families. There's a big farm outside of town which had 10 young men and women listed. It was still common in my grandparents' generation, even into the 1940s, for girls to go work for a family after their lutheran confirmation (age 14), until they either married or became school teachers (ie. spinsters). Boys were expected to start apprenticing for a trade, which often also meant living with the tradesman. I guess it's not really comparable though. Probably more akin to a secondary education than actual servitude. The pay was generally free boarding plus a small weekly stipend. It probably ended because higher education gradually became free/gratis during the first half of the 20th century. Going through a couple random streets in Copenhagen, the wealthier ones have several tjenestefolk. Those are presumably comparable.
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Dec 11, 2020 14:05
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In 1793 Thomas Jefferson wanted to establish a standard measuring system and as luck would have it France had just developed the metric system. He invited french botanist Joseph Dombey to bring a small copper cylinder representing one kilogram. Unfortunately Dombey's ship was blown off course by a storm and then captured by pirates. He was brought to Montserrat where he died in captivity. The copper cylinder ended up with Andrew Ellicott and stayed within the Ellicott family until 1952. So now you know who to blame.
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Dec 11, 2020 16:42
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Carthag Tuek posted:The pay was generally free boarding plus a small weekly stipend. It probably ended because higher education gradually became free/gratis during the first half of the 20th century. Probably also because moving from one place to another was life-ruiningly expensive without a sponsor, so even if the schools themselves weren't collection tuition paying housing in the city sure was for someone from the rural areas. Social systems becoming better and rural areas getting actual school network also helped to promote the idea of furthering education and the people moving to cities could actually do something else besides being servants at the larger houses. Here being piika or renki (piga or karl), especially renki (your tjenestekarl) basically was a job with the expectation that you at some point can put enough pennies together and buy a farmland of your own from somewhere in the dark forests of Norhern Savonia or Karelia, or might even inherit something from the farm owner. Or you could drink it all and spend your entire life as a househand or rent farmer.
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Dec 11, 2020 16:55
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Der Kyhe posted:Probably also because moving from one place to another was life-ruiningly expensive without a sponsor, so even if the schools themselves weren't collection tuition paying housing in the city sure was for someone from the rural areas. Social systems becoming better and rural areas getting actual school network also helped to promote the idea of furthering education and the people moving to cities could actually do something else besides being servants at the larger houses. Yeah, basically same here. Reading up on it, the first state-sponsored school subsidy in Denmark was actually free lodging at the university dorms* for select students. Also I've noticed when reading (auto-)biographies from people who grew up in the 1800s, it's more common than not that they mention their study being made possible only due to grants or private scholarships. The state mandated free public school since 1814 was ages 7-14. Anything further required money or help. Also yeah, moving was no good unless you had an agreement at the destination. One of my ancestors was a paper-maker who for some reason changed employers a lot in the 1820s/30s, and I've found some of his travel documents where it's clear that he travels a lot back & forth to various paper-factories before he sends for his family. Some of my ancestors never got further after their domestic service than husholderske (housekeeper, unmarried woman who keeps house for families) or arbejdsmand (man who does day-labor, married or not). * eg Regensen and others Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 17:40 on Dec 11, 2020 |
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Dec 11, 2020 17:37
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The similiatity between “husholderske” and variants of “huscarl” makes sense but it makes me chuckle. In the good old days* you got into the nobles’ households by stabbing folks, now the household is all people doing their chores. *these days may actually have been very bad
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Dec 11, 2020 18:06
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Carthag Tuek posted:It probably ended because higher education gradually became free/gratis during the first half of the 20th century. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SnKrdcOXmo
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Dec 11, 2020 18:15
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At least in Denmark, Huskarl went out of use way before any of the tjeneste- (serving-...). That's from the middle ages or even viking times. Husholderske is literally "house-holder-ess", ie a woman who holds the house [together]. One of the few avenues for an unmarried woman. In fact, you can find a lot of newspaper notices into the 1970s from widowers seeking a husholderske, or adult women seeking employment as one. And so, if they could stand each other, they married for mutual companionship and safety, maybe even love. If not, she would try to find some other widower. They were basically dating ads. Ideally, anyway. Also, since I was curious, here's a quick graph of mentions of "husholderske" in Danish newspapers 1900–69:  btw re "gratis", its yalls fault "free" has two meanings so  (but its :swearengen: saying the opposite of what he just said, instead)
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Dec 11, 2020 19:05
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Carthag Tuek posted:At least in Denmark, Huskarl went out of use way before any of the tjeneste- (serving-...). That's from the middle ages or even viking times. Husholderske is literally "house-holder-ess", ie a woman who holds the house [together]. One of the few avenues for an unmarried woman. I think large portion of our 50's movie industry involved husholderske (kodinhoitaja) and the old estate owner being in love. The other part was loggers having a romance with the only woman in the town and rest were crime stories involving Inspector Palmu.
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Dec 11, 2020 19:45
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Der Kyhe posted:I think large portion of our 50's movie industry involved husholderske (kodinhoitaja) and the old estate owner being in love. Wait, when did the Olsen Boys start busting up the scene?
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Dec 11, 2020 20:02
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C.M. Kruger posted:WWI did more to wipe out the French noble houses than the revolution. (since the revolution was mostly lead by the liberals in the nobility and the terror mainly killed peasants and random people) My theory is that it's just constantly repackaged colonization and racism and white settler sentiment. But nobody really wants to admit that because it gets in their way of their aesthetic posts about pure white cotton dresses in uncut green meadows and artsy rustic ceramic tea mugs  Fun fact: the origin of stool pigeons? De Voe conveys the incredible abundance of the pigeon when he describes a professional pigeon hunter at work. The hunter would set out a tamed pigeon tied to a chair or stool. He would then cover the nearby ground with rye and wait for the pigeon’s unsuspecting fellows to arrive. The hunter would then cast a net over the whole flock. This is the origin of the term “stool pigeon.” Lost Feast Culinary Extinction and the Future of Food by Lenore Newman Also something else neat about passenger pigeons: "Passenger pigeons were important to the Indigenous groups of North America. They played a critical role in the culture of the Iroquois Confederacy, a political union of five (and later six) groups including the Seneca and the Mohawk, two Indigenous Peoples who controlled large territories in the heartland of the pigeon’s migratory route along the Great Lakes. They hunted the adults only, in order to maintain pigeon stocks, and they dried the birds, boiled them and roasted them. As the pigeons only appeared in any one place on a four- to eight-year cycle, these “pigeon years” took on particular political importance, and groups would gather at the roosts to renew alliances, trade and plan marriages. Pigeons appeared in the spring in the Iroquois Confederacy and were eaten after maple sugaring but before the planting of crops. The birds were also fermented to create pigeon grease that was then mixed with grains to form a pemmican similar to that made on the plains." Lost Feast Culinary Extinction and the Future of Food by Lenore Newman I knew hunting the local wildlife was obviously important to native americans, but it never really connected how the purposeful over hunting of passenger pigeons was in the same vein as the over hunting of bison.
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Dec 11, 2020 20:06
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Ichabod Sexbeast posted:Wait, when did the Olsen Boys start busting up the scene? Olsenbanden are Danish, not Finnish!  (14 movies in all, first one in 1968)
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Dec 11, 2020 20:11
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Carthag Tuek posted:Jönssonligan
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Dec 11, 2020 20:17
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Carthag Tuek posted:Olsenbanden are Danish, not Finnish! We have Pekka and Pätkä (Tall and The Shortie), those started around fifties but gained popularity later in the sixties. And were also a comic during the same time, something akin to Fingerpori from which we get the Viperless Milk.
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Dec 11, 2020 20:17
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i guess a knockoff is fine if you never saw the original
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Dec 11, 2020 20:31
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Der Kyhe posted:We have Pekka and Pätkä (Tall and The Shortie), those started around fifties but gained popularity later in the sixties. And were also a comic during the same time, something akin to Fingerpori from which we get the Viperless Milk. Way back, we had a duo called Fy & Bi (short for "Fyrtaarnet og Bivognen", the Lighthouse and the Caboose). Tall thin guy & short fat guy, Kindof a Laurel & Hardy couple but as Chaplin vagabonds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7cdUlFtScI Later, Dirch Passer had many popular routines with Kjeld Petersen, some of those were basically word for word Abbott & Costello. ps to the end of my days i will only drink viperless milk
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Dec 11, 2020 20:39
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holy moly i never seen this one before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hACJm7f0Ekc dont watch the one with the mill above, this one is better
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Dec 11, 2020 20:44
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