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Honestly the game needs a hard reboot if there's going to be any real chance of fixing it, either that or do what Magic does and only allow certain sets to be legal in the main format, though this would effectively be the same thing at least at first
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Nov 17, 2020 09:26
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drrockso20 posted:Honestly the game needs a hard reboot if there's going to be any real chance of fixing it, Good news! 
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Nov 17, 2020 09:58
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I don't think they need to do that, nor even should do that, because the game's lack of set rotation is honestly its biggest appeal at this point. It's just really cool and interesting that cards from all over the game's life are still playable, and sometimes even useful. It's genuinely fun to learn that a weirdo card from like, 2005 suddenly becomes relevant. It's harder to do, because it requires maintaining a healthy and considered banlist, but it's worth it, because anytime I've talked to people who don't play the game anymore about the fact I got back into it, the most interesting part of my deck to them is that loving Lava Golem is in it. The problem is that's not really happening right now, either, with a handful of overpowered newer cards running kinda out of control. I've heard the suggestion that because of the pandemic they're being lighter on the banlists, because events haven't really been happening for people to play the cool, powerful cards that they do want people to at least have fun with eventually... but the fact the cards are still releasing at the same rate means that we've got a handful of cards that just weren't meant to be in the meta simultaneously. That explanation makes as much sense as anything else, but the problem existing for a good reason doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 10:03
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my hot take if you're willing to seriously change how yu-gi-oh is played is to do one of the following (stupid) things: - you can play quick-play spell cards from your hand on your opponent's turn. given that decks are playing 10+ handtraps anyway we might as well let them be spell cards as well as monster effects and impermanence. this probably means banning quite a few cards, including book of moon as dumb as that sounds, but i consider this an acceptable price. - you can't special summon from the extra deck more than once per turn. most combo decks are as good as they are because they can just churn through most or all of their extra deck to link climb (dragonlink), convert cards into multiple synchros easily (virtual world), or set up insane xyz stacks (zoodiac). this is a pretty dramatic move to make but if the game doesn't want to be fundamentally decided within the first two turns in almost every game, access to the extra deck has to be way slower than it currently is. the obvious, basically unworkable downside is that decks that special summon their huge unbeatable idiots out of the main deck like dinos, dogmatika and eldlich literally don't care at all and end up massively benefiting from such a change. - you can't special summon the same category of monster more than once per turn. this is basically a less dramatic version of the previous idea that doesn't make cards like verte anaconda literally useless and means decks that special summon maindeck monsters have to decide between their huge boss monster or their extender (looking at dinos in particular). the obvious, basically unworkable downside for this one is killing any deck contingent on pure link climbing, synchro chaining or xyz stacking while not hitting decks like eldlich at all. even rogue strats like prank-kids or frightfurs would get hurt a lot by this because they rely on either one or two types of special summoning. (realistically speaking i don't think they'd render the last 5-10+ years of card design obsolete in such a fashion, but hey, a man can dream.)
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Nov 17, 2020 10:22
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Skeleton Mom posted:Good news! I mean in terms of replacing the current game completely, not some side project that will be dead within the next two or so years at the most that has a good chance of never leaving Japan in the first place ungulateman posted:my hot take if you're willing to seriously change how yu-gi-oh is played is to do one of the following (stupid) things: Could maybe put limits to how big chains can get, but yeah the main thing is killing the ability for the game to be decided in only one or two turns, the game played best when the average player needed like 5 to 10 turns to achieve a winning condition, there's a reason the animes almost never do OTK decks, it's loving boring to watch
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Nov 17, 2020 11:12
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ungulateman posted:- you can't special summon the same category of monster more than once per turn. this is basically a less dramatic version of the previous idea that doesn't make cards like verte anaconda literally useless and means decks that special summon maindeck monsters have to decide between their huge boss monster or their extender (looking at dinos in particular). the obvious, basically unworkable downside for this one is killing any deck contingent on pure link climbing, synchro chaining or xyz stacking while not hitting decks like eldlich at all. even rogue strats like prank-kids or frightfurs would get hurt a lot by this because they rely on either one or two types of special summoning. I think you aren't completely off the mark with this one, but you're also running into the general reason that master rule 4 was so unpopular; it just sorta crammed Link monsters into the existing system as a compulsory element, and made combos very awkward and unlike how people wanted, or really expected. The original version of Legacy of the Duelist unintentionally showcased that rather well, I believe; you're given a famous duel from the anime, but you literally couldn't play it like the anime because summons didn't work like that anymore. I'd suggest the reverse: you can pull whatever extra deck nonsense you want, but you're locked into the first extra deck mechanic that you used. It still lets galaxy brain nonsense plays happen, but you can't end on a board with Links, Xyz and Synchros in a single turn. It slows down things like Predaplant Anaconda into REDD or Halqifibrax into 'basically anything' without actually killing them, allowing for a chance to interfere to stop the game just being Competitive Solitaire. It also lets self-contained deck themes still work; if your whole deck is built around Fusion monsters, you can pull some bullshit Jaden Yuki would be proud of, but you can't suddenly cram some unrelated Synchros into it halfway through. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 11:28
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my earnest theory is that they keep making tcg/ocg increasingly complicated and frustrating to play & releasing cards like this on purpose to make people consider swapping over to the comparatively simple and fun rush duels
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Nov 17, 2020 11:37
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Without any super drastic mechanic changes that break half the cards in the game the game is kind of stuck this way. Else a mega banlist, or they start permanently retiring cards if they wont take sets out of rotation. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 12:06
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There was hope in Duel Links/Speed Duels, but DL’s power creep is just as bad as main YGO’s, just on a compressed timescale, and Speed Duels gets one new product every geological age.
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Nov 17, 2020 18:10
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in Duel Links at least your opponent isn't setting up a board of six negates and one handloop. it still feels playing playing yugioh, but i agree that it's in a "but for how long" sort of way Speed Duels are completely dead, the guy who championed the format no longer works for konami and the official speed duel discord (the only place people could ask for rulings on poorly-written skill cards) was deleted Rush Duels have full anime support, serve as a great introduction to yugioh (something duel links quickly abandoned and speed duels never was) and has regular new product coming out. it solves a lot of basic problems with yugioh such as topdecking after playing your whole hand turn 1 being less fun & accidentally printing cards that cause infinite loops (once-per-turns are baked right into the rules now) & every card being a challenge to see how much text they can fit on a tiny piece of cardboard without legally being required to include a magnifying lens in every starter deck. i have a lot of optimism for the format
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Nov 17, 2020 18:48
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My hot take is that if you really want to fix the game, you need to ban every single generic extra deck monster and never release one again. Every single extra deck monster needs to have strict summoning conditions. I also think the game needs a set rotation, because the more I've thought about it, the more certain I became that it's the only half-decent way to rein in power creep. Neither of these things will happen, though, so for now I'll be happy with just banning problem cards like Halq as they show up.
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Nov 17, 2020 18:48
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Duel Links doesn't have handtraps or anything but for that format setting two Floodgates and a Fiendish can basically amount to the same thing.
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Nov 17, 2020 18:58
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Justin_Brett posted:Duel Links doesn't have handtraps or anything but for that format setting two Floodgates and a Fiendish can basically amount to the same thing. yeah but the game is built around giving you tools to manage backrow like that. cosmic cyclone, forbidden lance, and hey trunade if you can run it are excellent tools for breaking through trap-heavy decks. omni-negates and hand traps are much harder to work around and require much more specific tools to counter, which is why they powercrept even extremely powerful traps like the solemn cards in tcg/ocg
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Nov 17, 2020 19:35
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One of the funniest things to me about Duel Links is that Cosmic Cyclone and Hey Trunade exist, but MST doesn't, so floating effects on S/T cards are much more niche.
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Nov 17, 2020 19:42
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Are there any niche decks that use Super Polymerization with archetypes that function off being discarded like Fabled or Danger!? I assume Dark World wouldn't work cause the discard is a cost. I really like (The) Fabled so I've been looking for more things to use the archetype with. How does Fabled with Danger! compare to Fabled with Dark World? I assume all 3 at once would be too many archetypes at once. Asking for Link Evolution purposes.
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Nov 19, 2020 04:25
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Are there any niche decks that use Super Polymerization with archetypes that function off being discarded like Fabled or Danger!? I assume Dark World wouldn't work cause the discard is a cost. I really like (The) Fabled so I've been looking for more things to use the archetype with. How does Fabled with Danger! compare to Fabled with Dark World? I assume all 3 at once would be too many archetypes at once. I know they're basically my only subject here, but Shaddolls get a lot of use out of Super-Poly thanks to their fusions all requiring one Shaddoll and one monster of a given attribute, and literally every Shaddoll monster having a floating effect when destroyed by card effect (for which discard costs don't count, but being used as fusion material does).
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Nov 19, 2020 04:39
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Cleretic posted:destroyed by card effect quote:being used as fusion material does
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Nov 19, 2020 05:17
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being a fusion material from a non-field position is basically the same semantic absurdity of dinosaurs being able to destroy cards in their deck or hand, or the classic 'no i'm not destroying your monster i'm sending it to the graveyard, this is definitely different'
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Nov 19, 2020 05:22
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ungulateman posted:being a fusion material from a non-field position is basically the same semantic absurdity of dinosaurs being able to destroy cards in their deck or hand, or the classic 'no i'm not destroying your monster i'm sending it to the graveyard, this is definitely different'
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Nov 19, 2020 05:29
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I actually think it's weirder that discard costs don't count as being destroyed by card effect. Because it... is a card's effect that's destroying them, it's just that part of the effect doesn't count.
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Nov 19, 2020 05:41
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Cleretic posted:I know they're basically my only subject here, but Shaddolls get a lot of use out of Super-Poly thanks to their fusions all requiring one Shaddoll and one monster of a given attribute, and literally every Shaddoll monster having a floating effect when destroyed by card effect (for which discard costs don't count, but being used as fusion material does). Shaddolls don't get their effects when they're destroyed by a card effect, they get them when they're sent to the graveyard by a card effect. Destroying a card by a card effect counts as sending, but sending doesn't count as destroying. It's why things like Fusion spells and Foolish Burial trigger Shaddoll effects. It's semantics, but Yugioh is really big on those. Discarding doesn't count as being destroyed, either. Destruction is a very specific form of action. Vandar fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Nov 19, 2020 |
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Nov 19, 2020 05:49
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i think the really weird part is that being discarded as part of a cost and being discarded as part of an effect are different, and while this basically only comes up with discarding (because of dark world) it does apply to just about every other action in the game. i guess the other good example is tributing your opponent's stuff as a cost totally bypassing protection from effects
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Nov 19, 2020 06:08
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Vandar posted:Discarding doesn't count as being destroyed, either. Destruction is a very specific form of action. Card Destruction is very misleading then!!!!
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Nov 19, 2020 06:18
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Card Destruction is very misleading then!!!! The OCG name is 'Hand Obliteration', so blame that on the TCG messing with names again. 
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Nov 19, 2020 06:52
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i think if you spend enough time playing yugioh konami should send you an honorary law degree for being able to parse all these slight variations on card text resulting in wildly different effects
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Nov 19, 2020 06:55
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Cleretic posted:I know they're basically my only subject here, but Shaddolls get a lot of use out of Super-Poly thanks to their fusions all requiring one Shaddoll and one monster of a given attribute, and literally every Shaddoll monster having a floating effect when destroyed by card effect (for which discard costs don't count, but being used as fusion material does). I'll check them out! The Shadoll Falcon monster has a neat effect that might be fun to play with, and the concept of requiring Shadoll + different element monster could be fun with Super Poly. What Synchros / Xyz work with Shadoll?
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Nov 19, 2020 08:18
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Skeleton Mom posted:i think if you spend enough time playing yugioh konami should send you an honorary law degree for being able to parse all these slight variations on card text resulting in wildly different effects Chain B. Lock, attorney at law
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Nov 19, 2020 17:52
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It's time for me to ask for OpinionsTM! Which of the anime series, if any, are actually good? Sub or dub, they've got different strengths.
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Dec 8, 2020 08:26
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PMush Perfect posted:It's time for me to ask for OpinionsTM! Which of the anime series, if any, are actually good? Sub or dub, they've got different strengths. Duel Monsters, GX, and 5D's are all good, and for me personally, 5D's is probably the best of the lot. I would not recommend watching the dub for the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime, ever. I hear that they've improved the localization over the years, but frankly I don't trust that they stopped loving with it.
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Dec 8, 2020 08:41
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PMush Perfect posted:It's time for me to ask for OpinionsTM! Which of the anime series, if any, are actually good? Sub or dub, they've got different strengths. I'm into 5Ds at this point, and all three have been good in their own ways. Classic, original YGO ages remarkably well, even if the budget evaporates for the back chunk. If you ever watched it but never watched the whole thing, it's not a waste of time to go back to it. Watch the dub, why not, you know you like Dan Green yelling nouns. GX has some problems, mostly in that it's clearly trying to do something that doesn't work for the first half-season, and spend the next season and a half or so desperately trying to dig itself out of that hole. But that actually leaves its last two seasons free to do some really top-shelf stuff. Go ahead and watch the dub for the first season or two, just to see The Chazz at full glory, but this is the only one I've seen where subs are basically mandatory; not only are the subs much more tonally consistent (and lack some pretty handicapping censorship in the third season), the fourth season never actually got dubbed. And it's one of the good ones. 5Ds I haven't gotten too far into at this point, but to my understanding it's one of the more popular ones, in large part because it does really well with its setting, has the courage to have a protagonist who's an actual adult, has some really solid boss monster designs, and has the best female lead. Unfortunately, it's the one most hindered by production problems; things got weird with 5Ds' production, so probably the most promising and self-assured start the series had to that point just evaporates as they have to reshuffle characters because of voice actor obligations, and drop a plotline because of concerning connections to real-life news stories. I don't know any especially strong reasons to watch subbed or dubbed here, but I'd recommend dubbed just for Dan Green voicing a recurring bad guy, and loving Goku voicing a surprising amount of villains of the week. This is also around where they get tangibly better about dub censorship; they still use metaphors about death, and slightly redraw some designs, but when they decide their death metaphor is 'sent to the Netherworld' you can at least tell that they know you know. EDIT: Oh yeah, the only stipulation I've got for 5Ds: I hope you can stomach annoying kids, because oh god Leo Cleretic fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 08:54
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Sevens is ongoing and very very good so far. the gameplay is all easy to understand even for someone new to the franchise, the characters are all fun, the tone is mostly lighthearted, and the plot isn't up it's own rear end. it's the only yugioh anime I'd recommend without also offering a caveat about some aspect dragging the rest of it down. it's just nice.
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Dec 8, 2020 09:04
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Cleretic posted:5Ds I haven't gotten too far into at this point, but to my understanding it's one of the more popular ones, in large part because it does really well with its setting, has the courage to have a protagonist who's an actual adult, has some really solid boss monster designs, and has the best female lead. Unfortunately, it's the one most hindered by production problems; things got weird with 5Ds' production, so probably the most promising and self-assured start the series had to that point just evaporates as they have to reshuffle characters because of voice actor obligations, and drop a plotline because of concerning connections to real-life news stories. I don't know any especially strong reasons to watch subbed or dubbed here, but I'd recommend dubbed just for Dan Green voicing a recurring bad guy, and loving Goku voicing a surprising amount of villains of the week. This is also around where they get tangibly better about dub censorship; they still use metaphors about death, and slightly redraw some designs, but when they decide their death metaphor is 'sent to the Netherworld' you can at least tell that they know you know. I think 5D's is another one where subs are basically mandatory. From what I've heard, and I don't know if this is just tone or content, but the dub really dramatically mangled what 5D's was going for.
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Dec 8, 2020 09:13
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The 'last season' of 5D's didn't get dubbed, just like GX. Given that the series' final duel is just a giant love letter to Gurren Lagann, and owns, I highly recommend finding the sub so you can get the whole experience. The dub is actually pretty decent in terms of tone and content but it has its moments where it feels like a parody of Judge Dredd rather than a serious dystopian fantasy story, and the story crashing to a halt halfway through the last story arc is a massive letdown. By contrast, I think the first half-season of GX, and to a lesser extent the rest of the first two seasons, is significantly improved by the dub because it doesn't take itself remotely seriously and is way more fun that way. The absurdist tone doesn't work at all for the third season and is probably why the fourth never even got dubbed, but you're missing out if you don't get to hear Neo-Spacian Dark Panther tell Jaden "hey man I just tell it like it is, you gotta lay that dasher on 'em", or 4kids skillfully navigate the 'jelly donut' crisis by having Jaden refer to his onigiri as "whatever it is I'm holding".
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Dec 8, 2020 10:09
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PMush Perfect posted:It's time for me to ask for OpinionsTM! Which of the anime series, if any, are actually good? Sub or dub, they've got different strengths. There's already been some excellent posts about the animes so instead I'm going to throw a hearty recommendation to go read the original manga for Yugioh as it's got gorgeous art(well once you get past the first couple chapters where the creator is still figuring out his style) and a downright bugnuts story in the best way As for where to read it, well the official Shonen Jump app is actually pretty good overall and for all the stuff you can access on it is well worth the 3 bucks a month a subscription costs for it
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Dec 8, 2020 10:13
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in other news, i designed some sick custom gate guardian support cards and now i'm sad that they don't exist for real
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Dec 8, 2020 22:48
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The custom card creation life. I made some -roid support a while back and had the same feeling.
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Dec 8, 2020 23:12
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I will say all the "fix the game" ideas always feel like they're missing that they'd hurt so many decks that aren't the top meta stuff. Off the top of my head locking into only one type of special summon completely ruins the already garbage Entity stuff, and more relevantly makes D/D/D unplayable garbage. Same with only one extra deck summon a turn. The reduction of generics is a good thought (although a lot of the real nasty powerhouses are less generic than most think, it's just their requirements are easy for the top decks to do), but what counts as a generic is really really wildly different for each player. For example, nothing in Eldlich is generic, it just happens to be powerful because it's a small part of your total deck whilst being very versatile in it's use. My personal fix to Yu-gi-oh, along those lines, is in fact to do what Legends of Runeterra does. Which is whilst one player may attack, you can do slow (summon) speed stuff in both turns. In Yu-gi-oh terms, this would mean that if I am the first player to attack i summon/set a monster, play a spell or set a trap then we build the chain and resolve it, then my opponent would during the main phase 1 be able to summon/set a monster, play a spell or set a trap followed by building the chain and resolving it, once both player's perform no action with their priority (pass) then it moves to the battle phase, where I being the player on attack can declare attacks, then we go to main phase 2 which acts the way main phase 1 did with the alternating actions, finally when all players are happy we go to the end phase and swap attacker/defender. This keeps all the current capabilities of cards alive, whilst completely negating the ability to just solitaire into an unbreakable board, forcing a lot more interaction. My reasonable Konami might actually do it fix to Yu-gi-oh is banning out the problem cards (which they will do they just have no "data" right now to ban with due to a lack of competitions), because the game being fast isn't a problem, it's the board-states that can be achieved that are. Magical Musket is a great example, everything they do is fair and they've got actually interesting interaction, but they're rogue at best because the other decks are not fair if you go second for the most part. Like no joke a lot of the tier 2 decks right now are super fun and interesting, it's just tier 1 that's a nightmare. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 01:16
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Lord_Magmar posted:The reduction of generics is a good thought (although a lot of the real nasty powerhouses are less generic than most think, it's just their requirements are easy for the top decks to do), but what counts as a generic is really really wildly different for each player. For example, nothing in Eldlich is generic, it just happens to be powerful because it's a small part of your total deck whilst being very versatile in it's use. Yeah, killing generic extra deck monsters isn't necessarily meant to be a one-hit fix for the game, since as you mentioned there are some powerhouse decks out there that basically don't even use the extra deck. My thought here is more that by eliminating generic extra deck monsters, you reduce the power level of the format to the point where they don't even need to print decks as insane as Eldlich. But that being said, keep in mind that the strongest form of Eldlich (which is currently unplayable because they banned Jet Synchron and Mecha Phantom Beast O-Lion) was a variant that abused the standard Halq/Linkross/Auroradon/Marcher combo.
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Dec 9, 2020 02:53
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A hard reboot is still the easiest way to fix the game honestly
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Dec 9, 2020 05:26
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drrockso20 posted:A hard reboot is still the easiest way to fix the game honestly That's what Rush Duels are. And to a lesser extend, Speed Duels.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:33
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