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BaseballPCHiker posted:Update on my negotiation. You were wrong, or the guy that told you $150K was wrong?
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Nov 13, 2020 18:05
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Well it's been over a year now on the hunt but it's finally come to an end. I was given an offer a few days ago for basically my dream job which came in well above what I would have accepted (BECAUSE I DIDN'T SAY A FUCKIN NUMBER THIS TIME). I countered anyways asking for an additional 7% on top just because why not? They came back a day later accepting my counter and I've just signed the paperwork. My new base salary is well above where my current base + bonus puts me and I get a fatter bonus than I currently get on top of it. To anyone who's still in the slog: it's a numbers game. You're going to face a lot of rejections or run into a lot of brick walls when you can't come to an agreement. Just shrug those off and keep looking. Your ideal position is out there somewhere and the only way you'll find it is if you keep grinding at it. Don't blink when their HR tries to harass you into accepting less than you know you're worth. It'll click eventually.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:06
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Well it's been over a year now on the hunt but it's finally come to an end. I was given an offer a few days ago for basically my dream job which came in well above what I would have accepted (BECAUSE I DIDN'T SAY A FUCKIN NUMBER THIS TIME). I countered anyways asking for an additional 7% on top just because why not? They came back a day later accepting my counter and I've just signed the paperwork. My new base salary is well above where my current base + bonus puts me and I get a fatter bonus than I currently get on top of it. To anyone who's still in the slog: it's a numbers game. You're going to face a lot of rejections or run into a lot of brick walls when you can't come to an agreement. Just shrug those off and keep looking. Your ideal position is out there somewhere and the only way you'll find it is if you keep grinding at it. Don't blink when their HR tries to harass you into accepting less than you know you're worth. It'll click eventually. Congrats, well done. This story is the one we all like to see.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:50
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Hi goons. Audible recommended I listen to Never Split the Difference and I got a kick out of it, despite not being a negotiator in anything and being the stereotypical goon in passivity. It was a pretty empowering read (listen) and it got me thinking about how much more I could accomplish in my future and currently nonexistent) career. I finished his book a few ways back, and I also picked up Start With No, which was referenced and recommended multiple times by the former book. I'm about a third into this book. Both so far have offered sound, logical advice. Because i'm rather new to this, and its my first exposure to negotiations so I don't have anything to compare it with so I don't know how good this advice is. Both books seem to be written in response to Getting To Yes, which considers "win-win" solutions to be ineffectual and counterproductive. What's the thread's opinion on all this? Additionally, how can I apply these lessons to landing a job offer, or at least getting a recruiter to look at my application for a bit longer than a passing glance? Convincing a recruiter to take a chance on employing you seems not too different from negotiating a contract or when finding a supplier. I'm not necessarily trying to pull a rabbit of my hat with these jobs either. I'm at least meeting 70% of the requirements, or can demonstrate that I can perform the listed duties competently. I know job interviewing is a lot of luck and knowing the right people, but it seems like what im learning here might be able to help me out. Idk what im expecting out of this post, I just want to hear what y'all think.
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Nov 23, 2020 03:37
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About to counter for the first time ever on a job offer D: any advice for wording?
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Nov 25, 2020 00:35
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Wiggy Marie posted:About to counter for the first time ever on a job offer D: any advice for wording? hope i'm not too late! here's what i most recently submitted: quote:I'd like to discuss the base salary before signing the offer. The position requires x years of experience, which I exceed with my y years of relevant experience and z years of other relevant experience. My experience is directly applicable to the role and will allow me to hit the ground running immediately. Also, my <other experience/skill that I didn't mention in the interview> will help me and my team successfully navigate <this specific problem associated with the role/industry/company>. The average annual salary for this position is around $xxk according to <these specific websites; i used Indeed, PayScale, and I think LinkedIn or Glassdoor. whatever sites gave me the best numbers are what I used>. I respectfully ask you to consider your initial offer of <whatever paltry number initially given>. I believe my counteroffer of an annual salary of $morebux more accurately reflects my qualifications and the demands associated with <this specific thing about the role that makes me want to ask more money, in my case, it was supervising 30 people>.
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Dec 1, 2020 00:54
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There's no need to explain why- just say some variation of "How about [x]". Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but listing out all of these reasons why they should pay you more looks desperate to me. The only way I'd include an explanation would be for things like benefits- if your leaving your current job for them would be a significant cut to benefits, then it's probably worth saying that to attempt to get better benefits. For money, just suggest a higher number. They'll likely either accept or come back with something in between their offer and yours.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:48
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i agree, more words basically always weakens your argument in my opinion you're trying to appeal to fairness and really you should be appealing to value delivered
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Dec 1, 2020 19:44
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Agree. All that comes off as naive. Just ask for more money. "Given the role and responsibility, $X+10k seems more in line with the market average and industry salary surveys. Can you make that work?" Note: If the offer is already higher than the market average, just go with a brazen, "Can you make $X+10k work?"
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Dec 1, 2020 19:47
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I am confident I am the best candidate for the job and I will deliver immense value. I will be happy to sign an offer today if it is $X.
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Dec 1, 2020 20:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I am confident I am the best candidate for the job and I will deliver immense value. I will be happy to sign an offer today if it is $X. It's this.
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Dec 1, 2020 20:24
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thanks!
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Dec 1, 2020 20:25
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I am confident I am the best candidate for the job and I will deliver immense value. I will be happy to sign an offer today if it is $X.
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Dec 1, 2020 21:06
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The threads strategy paid off again for me. So happy I stumbled into this thread years ago. In my earlier years I had no idea how to negotiate and after practicing on several interviews, this time things lined up perfectly. I did name a number first this time. It’s because I knew the market rate and company pay range as the guy in charge of it is an old coworker I know well and fully trust to be honest. The company had no idea what I am currently making so the information advantage was on my side. I also nailed all the interview rounds getting feedback saying they absolutely loved to get me on board. I was pretty confident I was their first choice as they rushed the last rounds of interviews to make sure I could give notice before the end of the month (which is custom in some Euro countries) Purposely anchored above their range which would’ve been a 30% increase in pay. If I let them make the first offer it’d be inside the range, probably somewhere in the middle. They countered with a number that’d be a 20% raise which I would’ve taken regardless if they could go higher or not. With the “always negotiate” mantra of the thread in mind I told them I’d accept if they could make it 25% which was slightly above the top of their pay range for the role. They came back with the top of the range saying it was the best they could do. I took their offer which means a 24% raise. I’m now looking forward to start with them in an extremely challenging role a bit out of my comfort zone while getting paid more than I ever imagined earning. Thanks Neg Thread.
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Dec 1, 2020 22:33
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Awesome! I love reading posts like this.
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Dec 2, 2020 00:03
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LochNessMonster posted:
LochNessMonster posted:
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Dec 2, 2020 00:04
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Knowing the applicant's salary is a big loving deal, most applicants may start with a big ask but will ultimately settle for Current Salary + 10%, if even that. You can save a lot of money if you were willing to pay $115K but are able to draw the "take it or leave it" line at $100K with confidence because you happen to know the applicant is currently making $90K. Multiply that across entire departments and companies and you get a pretty good idea why most companies very badly want to know their applicants' current salary. That's assuming no competing offers, but let's face it, usually there are no competing offers and the applicant doesn't have the wherewithal to pretend there are and hold out for more. From the applicant's side of the table, when point-blank asked "What is your current salary?" my first response is "I'm more interested in talking about my fit at your company right now"; my second response if asked again is "I'm sure we can agree on a competitive salary, what's your budget?"; if asked again my third response is "A salary of (minimum acceptable + 25-40%) makes sense for this position, do you agree?"; if they persist in demanding a fourth time I tell them my current salary, my fourth and final response is "I won't waste any more of your time, goodbye." Personally I've never actually had to go that far in an in-person interview. Just a couple of phone screens, where it quickly became obvious that paying rock bottom salary for a minimally qualified candidate was the companies' only priority. That happens. As soon as you realize this is the case, you just bid them good day and move on with your life. e: Also, standard reminder that big companies share salary info via third party data collectors, so if you currently work at a big company and are applying to a big company, they already know your current salary and probably won't ask. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Dec 2, 2020 |
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Dec 2, 2020 00:26
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I've actually had really good experiences just saying "I'm not going to share that" when asked. They've never asked again and I've never been dropped from consideration. First time saying it felt really rude and combative but since then, not so much. I've even been complimented for it a few times weirdly enough.
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Dec 2, 2020 00:46
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Man I hope someday I'll get to the point where I'm not just desperately trying to get out of a lovely job. I had an HR call today and I named a price because I'm pretty drat desperate, plus I'm trying to move into another specialty that I don't have any real experience in. I know that'll probably just continue a cycle of bad jobs but man, the recession hosed me up something fierce. I've been fired 5 times over the past 15 years, including the job before this one. So yeah, hopefully this will be my last "oh poo poo" job hunt. I'm only 5 years into my real career, so maybe I've paid my dues by now. And just to make it clear, I'm at the point at the current job where I almost have a panic attack if I screw up or have a confrontational exchange with a higher up. So yeah I'm real scared of getting fired again. Zapf Dingbat fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 04:39
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Thanks for the suggestions and feedback everyone! My response was a bit of a mix, about two sentences or so. I'm waiting on a response.
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Dec 4, 2020 04:46
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Here’s a fun one. That job I didn’t take because instead of being a laterally move with forward advancement opportunity it was a step back and a six figure pay cut? Well, the alternate candidate (also internal, someone who knows me) called me for advice. The alternate was a level below me, and apparently they lowballed them, too. But I guess they backpedaled and offered them a lateral move, but have been so shady they might not take it. I have had literally hours of calls with this person and have been biting my tongue the entire time since they don’t know I was the first choice and passed. Big companies suck. They never look out for your best interest. Buyer be ware.
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Dec 4, 2020 07:16
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Ultimate Mango posted:Here’s a fun one. That job I didn’t take because instead of being a laterally move with forward advancement opportunity it was a step back and a six figure pay cut? Well, the alternate candidate (also internal, someone who knows me) called me for advice. The alternate was a level below me, and apparently they lowballed them, too. There's trade-offs Big companies tend to chronically underpay because there's always a line of people out the door willing to work for the big company and always a lot of people looking to move outside of their department within that big company. They can play games with people's salaries because they have the ability to exploit an unbelievably large pool of candidates On the other end of the spectrum, if you're in a class of people that is traditionally discriminated against, or you're dealing with some other situation involving labor laws, the big companies are less likely to view the problems caused by ignoring these complaints as a cost of doing business. Having a large pool of employees and a public image to maintain makes for an HR department that actually wants to help you, from time to time
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Dec 4, 2020 22:38
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Zapf Dingbat posted:Man I hope someday I'll get to the point where I'm not just desperately trying to get out of a lovely job. I had an HR call today and I named a price because I'm pretty drat desperate, plus I'm trying to move into another specialty that I don't have any real experience in. I know that'll probably just continue a cycle of bad jobs but man, the recession hosed me up something fierce. I've been fired 5 times over the past 15 years, including the job before this one. My comrade.
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Dec 5, 2020 00:50
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Chaotic Flame posted:I've actually had really good experiences just saying "I'm not going to share that" when asked. They've never asked again and I've never been dropped from consideration. First time saying it felt really rude and combative but since then, not so much. I've even been complimented for it a few times weirdly enough. I do this too when asked, but honestly it's been years since I've been asked "What are you making" vs. "What would you like to make"? It absolutely WILL shut down some conversations, and it may shut down conversations that alternatives would not have. But if you're interested in saving yourself time it definitely does that.
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Dec 8, 2020 15:04
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Mirthless posted:There's trade-offs The hiring manager was also just a tool. When I was the ‘final’ selected candidate I was told there was a ‘finance mistake’ and the salary was listed at 100k, but they ‘fixed the glitch’ and got the ‘max’ for the position which was >150k. So when I declined and this other person was ‘selected’ as the final candidate (having no knowledge of my prior involvement), they pulled the same lowball crap again, and, like me, the other person finally realized what was happening and declined. The second candidate was a minority female over the age of 40. Our HR tries hard to keep up an image but gives zero fucks. But yeah, never say a number but also know you could just be lowballed and need to walk away.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:19
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Can I negotiate pay to a job that already has a posted salary/hourly rate? No range listed, either "$XX/hr" or "From XXk a year". I played around with Glassdoor salaries calculator and tried to get the industry/years of experience/company size values as close to reality as I could. Do I have any negotiation power if this would be my first year working with this job tile?
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Dec 9, 2020 23:38
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buglord posted:Can I negotiate pay to a job that already has a posted salary/hourly rate? No range listed, either "$XX/hr" or "From XXk a year". You can negotiate pay for any job. It's just a matter of making the other party want you enough to pay up.
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Dec 9, 2020 23:44
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Is it kosher to tell my boss that my yearly raise was underwhelming? He just emailed me to tell me I got a 4.3% raise, and said that's a good raise considering pretty much everyone else got a 2% raise across the board. The thing is, in October my company announced they were raising the entry level salary (which is now $8k higher than when I started), and management level salaries up to what I make would be adjusted accordingly. I went from making $25k more than when I started to making $17k more. After that adjustment my raise was closer to the standard 2%. I should add that my company has had a very successful year. I used to manage 1 employee but she left the day our offices closed for the pandemic and we've been working from home ever since. In that time I've been doing my job, covering her job (side note, I ended up re-hiring her to work temp at 10 hours a week to help take the load off, but the coordination involved with that is still a good amount of added work), I helped cover for another woman on my team who was out for maternity leave (as expected, but I carried the load), I've had to pick up a lot of slack from another senior member who's been struggling to work remote, and I've played the role of tech support for my team. And I've done it all unquestioningly and without complaint. My boss knows this, and is extremely thankful for my help and knows it's been a lot. My company is very corporate and he probably didn't have much say in what I got, just that I got more than others. But I'm a little annoyed. I've picked up so much slack the past nine months and have really done my best to make WFH work for my team, that while my raise is better than most, it still feels underwhelming. What's the best way to approach this? Do I just email him back saying this? I should add that I did move across the country and will be going full time remote whenever we're back in office. I know there's a lot of factors at play here, which is why I'm asking. I otherwise love my job and the company is great. My boss and I have a very good relationship, so I feel like I could approach him fairly casually, but I really don't know how to.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:31
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All that happens if you make it known to management that you feel underpaid is you get put on a Flight Risk list and they start to quietly prepare for your departure while stringing you along. If you're underpaid, go get paid elsewhere.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:42
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I don't follow the second part but a ~4% raise in 2020 is pretty good. I don't think much good comes from complaining. You could look around and see if you can do better in the market and/or put more boundaries on what you're doing in regards to the extras.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:55
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It's not uncommon for companies to do salary adjustments outside of the typical merit based pay increases. This it to account for changes in their salary bands to stay aligned with the general market.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:27
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I would approach that as "I should get paid more, here's the value I bring" after I had been submitting my resume for a month or two and fully expecting them to give some bs noncommittal answer that strings you along while they look to possibly replace you, as someone else mentioned. Just remember, if you tell them you've received an offer, taking a counter offer is not a good idea.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:52
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Thanks for the replies. If the advice is to leave or leave it be, I'll keep my mouth shut. I am grateful for the acknowledgment and at the end of the day my salary affords my lifestyle. It would just be nice to have more $$$ in the bank.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:04
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I would still polish a resume and send out some targeted applications to places you think you'd be happy. It takes a while to get an offer and if you're starting to become financially unappreciated they aren't going to suddenly change their minds.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:27
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I've bitched about money before and it didn't hurt me but it was a fairly unique situation and I don't recommend you do it unless you're like at "I will quit if you don't fix this" levels because it sucked!
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Dec 11, 2020 23:33
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What is the difference between 'asking for money' and 'asking for a promotion review outside of typical cycle time'? Is the answer functionally nothing? I decided to ask my leadership for a mid cycle review but hope it wasn't taken the same as asking for more, even though at the end of the day that's what it's about.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:36
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If they fired you tomorrow, or next quarter, are you ok? That would definitely be in my head before raising anything formally. I know people who've raised massive stinks and gotten paid or promoted as a result, and are still there years later, because they are worth more to their team than the hassle of paying them a couple extra bucks. I've complained about insufficient raises before. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. End of the day, if you are confident in your worth, confident that you have just as many options as your employer, I think it's fine. I will say that in my first real job experience I never complained, because ultimately I didn't know my worth, and honestly I think that's worse than the alternative.
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Dec 12, 2020 00:07
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I might be in the minority but I don't think asking for a salary adjustment to align with the new corporate pay bands would be a bad idea. Especially if you're relatively early in your career and thus closer to the recently raised starting salary the op mentioned. It sounds like your compa ratio was lowered arbitrarily. Meaning they raised your pay band and your relative place in that band is now lower. Or ask you boss how much of your 4% raise was merit and how much was salary adjustment. End of the day, though if you're not willing to look elsewhere and ultimately make a move, you're probably not going to get more by asking nice.
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Dec 12, 2020 01:02
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yoohoo posted:Thanks for the replies. If the advice is to leave or leave it be, I'll keep my mouth shut. I am grateful for the acknowledgment and at the end of the day my salary affords my lifestyle. It would just be nice to have more $$$ in the bank. As a manager. If one of my best guys was disappointed about their pay it would be great to know. I either get with my leadership and get him some money or I try and fail or I tell you to go pound sand. At least I know you might leave soon and I will be left holding the bag. I can't imagine thinking that I should find someone new and fire you though or push you out. That is just crazy talk, a guy killing it a bit unhappy or some new person who isn't going to be useful until 6-12 months from now. I don't think there is much wrong with meeting with your boss and saying "hey, I appreciate the raise, If I am honest I was expecting a lot more with the pay scale adjustments, how the company has been doing, and more importantly how much I have been killing it". As to 4% being good for 2020...whatever. If you are at a company who is killing it expect more. If I was at Amazon or Zoom (or hundreds of other companies doing well) I would expect a lot. If I was a chef...not so much.
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Dec 12, 2020 02:52
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Yeah sorry if my response came across as "you'll get poo poo canned for asking and this will sandbag your working relationship." That wasn't the intent if that's how it read. There isn't anything wrong with asking for a raise but it helps if you have alternatives to fall back on if it doesn't work out. I've had people come up to me, ask me for a raise, and I've given it to them on the spot once I saw their pay wasn't in line with what my organization had laid out for pay. This was entry level but still. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 04:24
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