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gwrtheyrn posted:The issue you will run into is that you charge a premium price then the buyer asks 'why am i not buying a tesla that has more features (or is cheaper)' and they buy a tesla instead because it's the "cool" EV brand, and part of the purchase of higher end vehicles is the brand. Ultimately they may be able to make a theoretical car and price it at some price, but they probably can't make a car that beats a tesla on price and features, which is what they'd probably have to do in that segment The Taycan would like a word with you
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Dec 8, 2020 04:47
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Also, the Hummer EV 1st edition sold out in 10 minutes.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:14
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Also, the Hummer EV 1st edition sold out in 10 minutes. The only Cadillac that has the cachet to actually charge a premium is the Escalade so they should definitely make an Escalade EV before bothering with anything else.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:19
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MomJeans420 posted:see A hot take from Tesla Charts is not proof that Tesla cant make a car profitably. You know what is proof? A good financial analysis of the car making arm only. Which to be honest, has been commented Tesla can indeed make cars for higher gross margins than normally seen. I'll leave aside that trying to pick and choose what bits of revenue you can count for a business is some A-Grade bullshit, esp when other car makers also have non car revenue streams. Oh but those don't get removed when trying to argue if they are profitable, do they?
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Dec 8, 2020 05:24
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:A hot take from Tesla Charts is not proof that Tesla cant make a car profitably. You know what is proof? A good financial analysis of the car making arm only. Which to be honest, has been commented Tesla can indeed make cars for higher gross margins than normally seen. https://www.fortune.com/2020/09/30/tesla-profit-revenue-environmental-credits-elon-musk/amp/ There’s a difference between non car revenue streams like financing arms or whatever and selling pollution allowances which are by their nature not a sustainable revenue stream. It’s basically a government subsidy funded by Tesla’s competitors.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:32
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YOLOsubmarine posted:https://www.fortune.com/2020/09/30/tesla-profit-revenue-environmental-credits-elon-musk/amp/ Businesses take advantage of govt credits and tax breaks all the time so why are Tesla being singled out, especially when they themselves have acknowledged its not anything beyond a short term revenue stream? Tesla as a business is profitable, you don't get to pick and choose what revenue streams to count if looking at it as a whole. Exactly like you dont get to remove (when GM had it) the Finance arm or the exceptionally dubious practice of charging Opel and Holden for use of their own designs while Holden existed and GM owned Opel. Which is an aside anyway from the main point I was making (and also acknowledging to do it properly, you need to study only car business centre activity) about how to work out if Tesla making a car was profitable. Doing that, it does appear to be the case they can.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:52
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If you’re discussing the long term prospects of a company I think it’s pretty useful to understand that a core revenue stream will rapidly dry up and there does not appear to be a replacement for that revenue, which should be especially concerning since that will happen, by design, at exactly the time more competition enters the market. And of course you’d an separate out revenue streams and look at them in isolation. It’s literally done in quarterly financial statements for exactly this reason. Companies form SPEs and subsidiaries and selL off divisions to manage different revenue streams with different life cycles and challenges. It’s perfectly valid to look at how GM makes money as well and whether it’s sustainable. I mean, they literally wouldn’t exist anymore if it weren’t for the US government so I’d say it’s pretty ripe for discussion given the current economic climate. But GMs p/e ratio is also not 10x the industry average like Tesla’s so I’d say that concerns about their profitability are already baked into the price in a way that they are not with Tesla.
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Dec 8, 2020 08:17
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I didn't want to get into it in this thread but even with credits it appears Tesla did some creative accounting to show a profit, hence their ever ballooning accounts receivable balance. Seriously though, look into that before you try to tell me Tesla is profitably selling cars. This isn't the gambling on stocks thread nor a thread in BFC so I don't expect your average poster to have read SEC filings or have done a deep dive on their accounting, but I do think it's funny random posters think they know the auto business better than Toyota or other manufacturers. Reading a CNBC headline that says Tesla posted a profit for four quarters does not make you competent to opine on BEV profitability. If it seems arbitrary to ignore regulatory credits, I get that, but it's only because you're not thinking long term (or even to 2022). If you're a pure BEV manufacturer but every other legacy automaker has a huge lineup of BEVs, are your credits worth anything? If BEVs are the future, you need to make a BEV that is profitable on its own, which is obviously why the OEMs who didn't gently caress up with dieselgate are taking the their time. For Tesla none of this matters because they will inevitably be doing a capital raise in the near future while the stock price is stupidly high, and they can raise many billions of dollars to keep on selling a dollar for 90 cents. But for companies who wish to be a going concern even after the current bubble bursts, they have to consider the profitability of their cars despite changes in regulatory environments, government incentives, etc. *edit* this was not directed to YOLOsubmarine, but the posts above
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Dec 8, 2020 08:22
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Proust Malone posted:My wife really likes the Tesla X. I like the Audi e-tron. The dealership had 2019s at crazy discount because they sat on the lot, and now I'm seeing used 2019s with less than 5k miles. I have an e-trom and a Y. The etron is a better *CAR* but the Tesla is a better *SOFTWARE DEVICE*. If you have any interest in full self driving or even a half decent lane keep system the Tesla is light-years ahead. It's also real obvious the Tesla was built around being an EV where the E-tron is a normal crossover that just happens to be electric. The X is a lot bigger than the E-tron on the interior. E-tron frunk is treated like a hood and has a stupid latch system which makes using it a pain in the rear end. Tesla's have a much much better charging infrastructure. Absolutely no one knows what an E-tron is, including most Audi dealer employees, lol.
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Dec 8, 2020 08:57
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YOLOsubmarine posted:If you’re discussing the long term prospects of a company I think it’s pretty useful to understand that a core revenue stream will rapidly dry up and there does not appear to be a replacement for that revenue, which should be especially concerning since that will happen, by design, at exactly the time more competition enters the market. We are veering hard off the original question here and what again, can a EV be made profitably at a Cadillac price? The answer from what can be gleaned from breaking out car production from other revenue is appears to be yes... because as you said and I clearly alluded to, financial statement break it down. Wether Tesla as a conglomerate remain viable long term is a separate question and in reference to credits they get, it is an issue they themselves have highlighted as being short term only which is acceptible (and thence it's not actually core revenue). The trend is for credits to be less relevant to clear a net profit so we;ll see if the trend continues. Otherwise Tesla's share price is basically markets being delusional there's absolutly no doubt about that. MomJeans420 posted:I didn't want to get into it in this thread but even with credits it appears Tesla did some creative accounting to show a profit, hence their ever ballooning accounts receivable balance. Seriously though, look into that before you try to tell me Tesla is profitably selling cars. This isn't the gambling on stocks thread nor a thread in BFC so I don't expect your average poster to have read SEC filings or have done a deep dive on their accounting, but I do think it's funny random posters think they know the auto business better than Toyota or other manufacturers. Reading a CNBC headline that says Tesla posted a profit for four quarters does not make you competent to opine on BEV profitability. Your issue here is that some posters CAN read a financial statement and have a perverse enjoyment on doing deep dives occasonally. And thats exactly why I'm telling you to knock it off with the Tesla Charts crap - if you are trying to prove or disprove whether anyone can make a EV for profit, this is just someone with an actual financial past that I would rather not entertain too much anymore saying that if you are going to try to prove your point Post the actual numbers from the car manufacturing arm and not some bullshit from a internet bomb thrower
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Dec 8, 2020 09:01
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:We are veering hard off the original question here and what again, can a EV be made profitably at a Cadillac price? The answer from what can be gleaned from breaking out car production from other revenue is appears to be yes... because as you said and I clearly alluded to, financial statement break it down. This is silly because you're just asserting that the answer is that Tesla production is profitable with a handwave towards financial statements -- you're going "look at the numbers, which I will not be providing!" so all you're doing is shutting people down without providing evidence. Maybe it's true, but I certainly don't have the time to go digging, and it does violate intuition when they'd be in the red without selling regulatory credits.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:01
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Most of those regulatory credits are just funding the expansion pace. Without them they could still be profitable and expand, but it wouldn't be as quick.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:11
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Shamino posted:I have an e-trom and a Y. The etron is a better *CAR* but the Tesla is a better *SOFTWARE DEVICE*. If you have any interest in full self driving or even a half decent lane keep system the Tesla is light-years ahead. It's also real obvious the Tesla was built around being an EV where the E-tron is a normal crossover that just happens to be electric. Your first paragraph was my impression too. I think maybe it was wrong to drive the Tesla first because after that the Audi felt sluggish. I drove the gas version too, the q5? And it was much more responsive in acceleration. The engine sound was jarring after having driven the electrics. How it compared to Tesla imho was the trim was nicer than the X, but at the Y’s price. The etron felt like a luxury car where the Y did not.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:14
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I think an EV can be made profitably at Cadillac prices, and even at KIA prices. Just, not as profitably as an otherwise identical ICE vehicle. So it's a hard sell for businesses who exist to maximise profit, to deliberately opt to make less profit, unless there's some sort of incentive or you can sell your shareholders on a long term strategy. Develop the technology now and sell at least one tech demo model at cost so we don't get left behind in the future. Toyota did it with the Prius, but they could only get away with that because they were making so much with their regular vehicles. Porsche can afford to do it because they can earn all the profit they need selling matching luggage for $7500 and a detailing kit for $1300, etc, etc. E- $580 for "sport sound".
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Dec 8, 2020 16:15
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one of the barriers here is structural as well - GM has to make margin and the dealer has to make margin. Tesla doesn't have this problem because it's a single entity and SGA & distribution is all part of the cost bucket for a single entity
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Dec 8, 2020 16:53
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Proust Malone posted:Your first paragraph was my impression too. I think maybe it was wrong to drive the Tesla first because after that the Audi felt sluggish. I drove the gas version too, the q5? And it was much more responsive in acceleration. The engine sound was jarring after having driven the electrics. Was the etron charged to 80% when you drove it? Maybe they had it in efficiency mode? Mine will slam you into the back of the seat and is just absolutely stupid fast 0-60. It is for sure faster than the Y. I've had a gen2 ford raptor and tuned wrx in the past so it's not like I came from a Prius or anything.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:29
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The e-tron’s 0-60 is 5.2 & the Y’s is 4.1.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:54
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Shamino posted:Was the etron charged to 80% when you drove it? Maybe they had it in efficiency mode? Mine will slam you into the back of the seat and is just absolutely stupid fast 0-60. It is for sure faster than the Y. I've had a gen2 ford raptor and tuned wrx in the past so it's not like I came from a Prius or anything. I couldnt tell you. The salesman didnt know a whole lot either. I kinda poked around the interface for a while then took it for a drive. I had just driven the Y, so maybe my view was skewed by that experience which def. did pin my head to the headreast.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:12
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Your issue here is that some posters CAN read a financial statement and have a perverse enjoyment on doing deep dives occasonally. And thats exactly why I'm telling you to knock it off with the Tesla Charts crap - if you are trying to prove or disprove whether anyone can make a EV for profit, this is just someone with an actual financial past that I would rather not entertain too much anymore saying that if you are going to try to prove your point Post the actual numbers from the car manufacturing arm and not some bullshit from a internet bomb thrower Those numbers literally cite Tesla's quarterly filings? If anyone thinks they're wrong, go ahead and pull up all the official numbers and post them, but there's no point in recreating work someone else did. ilkhan posted:Most of those regulatory credits are just funding the expansion pace. Without them they could still be profitable and expand, but it wouldn't be as quick. They've actually been slashing CapEx to show a profit, it's down compared to previous years. It doesn't matter though because as expected they are doing another ATM offering (their third raise of 2020), which they'd be stupid not to with the stock price this year.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:48
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I think "consumers dont want" isnt the real issue - Tesla for better or worse is showing the demand for a decent EV is actually there. Cadillac itself would be a fairly decent fit for an upmarket EV that has a good profit margin, so I dont see the "consumers dont want" I ended up at the 2nd closest Kia dealer because the one closest to me didn't want to sell EV's. Ditto the Hyundai dealer across the street from that place. The dealer I went to loves selling Niro EV's to AZ buyers (they are in Escondido CA) and the manager drives a Chevy Spark EV.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:51
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After 3 weeks of calls, I finally got all the paperwork needed for my state solar rebate and it's been successfully submitted. Hopefully it goes thru. I still haven't been able to get my SRECs. Tesla deleted my SREC application and are claiming they own the SRECs and are trying to use a document that they added my initials to to prove it. Apparently they think I sold them the SRECs for $0 out of the goodness of my heart. I'm currently on call #4 to try and get the SRECs resolved. Thought it was fixed a couple weeks ago when the customer rep confirmed that I owned the SRECs and sent me the link to apply for them. I can't imagine having to deal with having a car issue with this company.
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Dec 8, 2020 19:12
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Sounds like fraud to me
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Dec 8, 2020 19:38
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Time to get a lawyer.
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Dec 8, 2020 19:48
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Hope you have copies of everything you ever sent them
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Dec 8, 2020 20:04
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Yes, I told them the first time that they shouldn't initial things on my behalf. I've got copies of everything.
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Dec 8, 2020 20:05
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Yeah man, my buddy had his SREC poo poo the bed and had to get a tow from the middle of nowhere. Covered under warranty, but still, such a pain in the rear end. That's why I did the SREC delete mod, so I don't have to deal with it. It doesn't hurt the performance at all and the economy hit is barely noticeable.
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Dec 8, 2020 20:28
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lol, Tesla just said that they decided not to let customers keep their SRECs. So they should be able to keep mine with no compensation. Like, I'm not sure where to even begin.
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Dec 8, 2020 20:51
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MrLogan posted:lol, Tesla just said that they decided not to let customers keep their SRECs. So they should be able to keep mine with no compensation. Get a lawyer.
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Dec 8, 2020 20:57
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MrLogan posted:Like, I'm not sure where to even begin. Wibla posted:Get a lawyer. That being said, when lawyers get involved, both parties lose. I'm sure they're counting on people thinking it's not worth suing to get away with it
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Dec 8, 2020 21:27
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Is Fiat still alive in the US? The new electric 500 looks pretty funky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSwvQE0tgyM
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Dec 8, 2020 22:43
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mobby_6kl posted:Is Fiat still alive in the US? The new electric 500 looks pretty funky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSwvQE0tgyM Sadly, no. Smart was taken out of North America as well but I never cared for them.
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Dec 8, 2020 22:48
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mobby_6kl posted:Is Fiat still alive in the US? The new electric 500 looks pretty funky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSwvQE0tgyM This thumbnail makes me very jealous. 
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Dec 8, 2020 23:02
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fiat is still alive in the US but we will not get the new 500
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Dec 9, 2020 00:05
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Not Wolverine posted:As much as that sucks, I admire the fact that they are at least claiming it is due to the lost tax revenue from gasoline taxes. Of course, the proper way to handle this would be that if fuel taxes are getting too low, then make a flat road maintenance tax to apply to all vehicles, and rename the fuel tax to like a pollution tax. I just got my electric gas tax bill. $81, which isn't terrible. However, $81 divided by our $0.17/gallon gas tax = 476 gallons. 476 gallons * 45mpg (what I get on gas only) = 21420 miles per year, which is 60% more than I drive per year. States need to base this on annual odometer reading, this is dumb. e: https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/ Looks like every state charges EV owners more tax than ICE owners, and some are looking to bump it to stupid high levels in order to generate revenue without the bad PR of raising gas taxes outright. Stultus Maximus fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 00:22
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My State (WA) is $150 a year, and they're trying to raise it to $300. There's also a $75/year tax on hybrids, even non-PHEVs, to build charging stations. Very good and sensible. Tax my truck so I get rid of it instead you fucks.
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Dec 9, 2020 01:23
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Elviscat posted:My State (WA) is $150 a year, and they're trying to raise it to $300. I had both the $150 and $75 on my EV I actually don't mind, just more irritated that a brand new gas car costs less. Also, if your truck is 6,001 pounds or more, you don't the fee for mass transit 🤪
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Dec 9, 2020 01:41
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Elviscat posted:My State (WA) is $150 a year, and they're trying to raise it to $300. Isn't it 150 for hybrid and 225 for electrics with >30mi of range? There are two parts--the first which is 75/150 depending on the hybrid/ev range, and the 2nd which is for "transportation electrification" Edit: apparently the extra 75 only applies to EVs with >30mi of range, so it's 75 or 225. Prius prime = 75, clarity plugin=225. Makes sense 
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Dec 9, 2020 01:42
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that, the $150's the gas replacement fee, the $75 is the build mo' chargers fee. I guess I can't complain too much, since that's almost exactly what I would pay for my commute in my truck in gas tax, of course I also wasn't going to drive my truck 50 miles a day forever (02 Ranger a hair under 25mpg on the commute) I live outside the fee area for mass transit! For now!
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Dec 9, 2020 01:56
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Illinois charges an extra $100 per year for EV registration, which is about 258 gallons worth of state tax. If we drive the Subaru 8000 miles less we’d come out ahead. Plus the state gas tax is going to go up yearly based on inflation, but the registration fees don’t (unless they pass a new law). In other news, was originally scheduled to pick up the Model 3 yesterday, but got called last week and told the truck wouldn’t be arriving until the 11th, so rescheduled delivery for Saturday, fingers crossed.
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Dec 9, 2020 02:09
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Spotted in Malibu today (he was a tester):
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Dec 9, 2020 02:48
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