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My understanding is that a lot of the Roman infants "abandoned to the elements" were in fact left outside the door of the nearest orphanage. The parents would lose all rights to them and the kids would grow up to be indentured labor, but they were otherwise taken care of.
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Dec 12, 2020 00:20
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Schadenboner posted:
Yuan Shao is not a medical professional and COVID is not caused by the Imperial Hereditary Seal.
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Dec 12, 2020 00:35
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I know it was still somewhat going on late enough to inform New Testament metaphors in the gospels.
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Dec 12, 2020 00:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It’s a bit early and you may have seen it, but the 2010 Romance of the Three Kingdoms loving rules and is all on youtube (except for the episode where Sun Jian takes the imperial seal) Hell yeah I'm going to watch this one next. Thanks!
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Dec 12, 2020 01:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:
Pot and garden hole joke are pretty ancient (haha) but yeah the bar's being closed has been EXTREMELY lovely.
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Dec 12, 2020 01:47
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The Peach Garden Bros: The Mensch, Mr. Sunburn, and Angry Chinese Jack Black E: "Peach Garden Pizza: We Deliver To Anywhere in the Three Kingdoms in 50 Episodes (Or Less!)" E2: This Lü Bu guy certainly seems to fancy himself. I'm sure that won't bite him in the rear end, though! Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 02:04
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Link? Can't see it easily. Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL33A390995E9A7F00
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Dec 12, 2020 02:32
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I “like” the idea Of the 5 neighbor death panel. (Like as in it’s interesting) Humans kind of have these “”””instinctual”””” legal expressions
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Dec 12, 2020 03:01
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The romans were so goddamn macho, it feels like maybe there was an additional element like having a crippled child was shameful, as the father you'd be thought of as less manly because you had such weak seed. And then the whole "baby-molding" ( ) and starvation ( ) is the way that you make the newborn babies look less like the blobby grubs that they are and more like adult people so the father didn't throw them in the trash. Which then kills a whole lot of kids.I dunno, that's speculative but it kinda hangs together. And is also one of the more revolting things I've thought about in a little while. Kaal posted:My understanding is that a lot of the Roman infants "abandoned to the elements" were in fact left outside the door of the nearest orphanage. The parents would lose all rights to them and the kids would grow up to be indentured labor, but they were otherwise taken care of. And these orphanages were well-funded by the state, and so didn't have any incentive to actually dispose of the infants born with malformations obvious enough that they'd be impossible to sell as slaves / indentured labor?
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Dec 12, 2020 05:38
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Klyith posted:And these orphanages were well-funded by the state, and so didn't have any incentive to actually dispose of the infants born with malformations obvious enough that they'd be impossible to sell as slaves / indentured labor? Try practicing some empathy for historical figures. These were real people who were giving up their real children, typically because of patriarchal social pressures or because they were too poor to care for them.
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Dec 12, 2020 05:59
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Kaal posted:Try practicing some empathy for historical figures. These were real people who were giving up their real children, typically because of patriarchal social pressures or because they were too poor to care for them. I'm not lacking in empathy for either the parents or the kids, but if the colloquialism for orphanages was "abandoned to the elements" than the actual reality can't have been terribly nice.
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Dec 12, 2020 06:18
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euphronius posted:I “like” the idea Of the 5 neighbor death panel. (Like as in it’s interesting) like a HOA but instead of monitoring lawn lengths they just tell you whether you can kill your kids or not
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Dec 12, 2020 07:45
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feedmegin posted:Or horseradish or mustard, I would assume. Yeah my money would definitely be on mustard. Brassicas are one of the most ancient and heavily-modified crop plants. The seeds of basically the entire family function as mustard, and they produce enormous quantities of seed (see canola).
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Dec 12, 2020 10:48
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feedmegin posted:Or horseradish or mustard, I would assume. Even today horseradish and mustard is used to make faux wasabi.
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Dec 12, 2020 12:17
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And then there's silphium, a plant which the Romans loved so much in their cooking that they harvested it into extinction. We only have the vaguest idea what it looked like, and apparently it tasted a bit like asafoetida, which they used as a cheaper substitute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium
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Dec 12, 2020 13:10
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Alhazred posted:Even today horseradish and mustard is used to make faux wasabi. I mean if you've eaten anywhere other than a very posh restaurant preferably in Japan horseradish dyed green is exactly what you got. Most people have never had the real thing. Edit: asafoetida isn't spicy? Just stinky raw, hence 'foetid'
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Dec 12, 2020 13:47
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feedmegin posted:I mean if you've eaten anywhere other than a very posh restaurant preferably in Japan horseradish dyed green is exactly what you got. Most people have never had the real thing. Ha -- I'm growing a little wasabi plant. I'm letting it get a bit bigger before thinking about harvesting it though. And yeah, I don't think silphium was spicy -- it was more just while we were on the topic of ancient food.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:05
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I thought silphium was also an abortifacient which meant there was demand that outstripped the plant's ability to regenerate itself in the wild. Though looking it up it seems like it was all of these at once AND a local specialty which may have not been easily cultivated, like huckleberries. The exploration also led to the hypothesis that the animal used to represent Set isn't actually some kind of jackal or donkey but was a rare animal which subsequently became extinct, but whose appearance was distinctive enough to be recorded reliably.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:22
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Jesus loving Christ, starving a newborn for days. Feeding a constipated baby animal poo poo and smearing other animal poo poo all over it. No wonder they were the greatest people in history! 
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Dec 12, 2020 14:39
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The poo poo part for constipation.... possibly may cause diarrhea which would solve the constipation. Now you just need something for the diarrhea.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:40
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CleverHans posted:Never before has weirdo joke "It's not paranoia if they're really after you" been so applicable. It seems like a pretty common theme in ancient (and modern!) history; when you're ruled by the last paranoid bastard standing after a constant game of real life Crusader Kings, it explains a lot about poo poo getting wild. JonathonSpectre posted:Jesus loving Christ, starving a newborn for days. Yeah, there's a point where being a child of the upper class really sucks because they're the most concerned with whatever loving wild ideas that people calling themselves doctors have come up with, whether it involves animal poo poo, arsenic, mercury, bloodletting, opium, leeches... which might also explain a lot about the ruling class.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:42
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These Modern Times have got me thinking about descent into economic and state collapse as a product of elite decisions rather than an inevitable confluence of material conditions. When do elites choose to abandon stability and descend into chaos, and why?
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Dec 12, 2020 15:51
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Arglebargle III posted:These Modern Times have got me thinking about descent into economic and state collapse as a product of elite decisions rather than an inevitable confluence of material conditions. When do elites choose to abandon stability and descend into chaos, and why? the elite decisions are part of the matrix of material conditions. sometimes they strongly influence the outcome, other times not so much the answer is, tho, that they make that choice when they think they will come out of the instability and chaos in an advantageous position
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Dec 12, 2020 15:53
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Stability sounds great until you realize that it's just helping breed future competetors, better to monopolize a key resource and roll the dice
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Dec 12, 2020 16:03
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Arglebargle III posted:These Modern Times have got me thinking about descent into economic and state collapse as a product of elite decisions rather than an inevitable confluence of material conditions. When do elites choose to abandon stability and descend into chaos, and why? One of the points in Goldstone's Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World is that insufficient space in the elite sphere is #2 of the eight causes that lead to state breakdown. Goldstone gives the example of in France some of the most fervent supporters of the revolution were from the lower ranks of the clergy and nobility who were shut out of advancement to higher positions despite having educations. I'm pretty sure this also happened in the Meji Revolution too. I have no idea how this relates to ancient societies beyond the fact that there always tends to be an elite sphere and they jockey for power. Didn't something like this happen in Roman Britain when the island's elites decided that paying taxes overseas wasn't worth their time and it's better to be a warlord instead of a dux in a poo poo hole diocese?
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Dec 12, 2020 17:03
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Arglebargle III posted:These Modern Times have got me thinking about descent into economic and state collapse as a product of elite decisions rather than an inevitable confluence of material conditions. When do elites choose to abandon stability and descend into chaos, and why? Also the elites don't have perfect information and are acting in their own best interests. They'd say, "well, the Rhine frontier is hundreds of miles away, why should I pay to keep up the legions there." And then suddenly, "Oh poo poo, there are Franks everywhere throwing axes at everybody, how could this happen?"
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Dec 12, 2020 17:39
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I don't think the elites are "choosing" to abandon stability and collapse their society, hardly ever anyways. They don't have a crystal ball, they don't know what the product of their decisions will look like. If you told Cicero that the product of his decisions was going to lead to the fall of the Republic, he might have been a bit more willing to compromise with Caesar. Rich people thinking they don't need to compromise with anyone is like the most repeated pattern of history. Not the right time period for this thread, but I happen to be re-reading a book about the french revolution right now, Fatal Purity, a biography of Robespierre. With 20/20 hindsight you can see the obvious places where Louis could have saved himself and ended up as a strong constitutional monarch. And some of his advisors had a clue early on and seemed to be telling him "yo this poo poo is gonna get really bad if you don't meet them halfway". Jacques Necker in particular, but he gets dismissed early in the revolution because he can't get financial reforms from the nobility & clergy. (And also because he's a constitutional monarchist and Marie-Antoinette -- who does not see how bad things can get until it's waaaaay too late -- doesn't want to be a constitutional royal rather than an absolute power royal.) Ithle01 posted:One of the points in Goldstone's Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World is that insufficient space in the elite sphere is #2 of the eight causes that lead to state breakdown. Goldstone gives the example of in France some of the most fervent supporters of the revolution were from the lower ranks of the clergy and nobility who were shut out of advancement to higher positions despite having educations. Huh. Is #1 societal inequality in general? The Abbot Sieyes would be the obvious reference there, but it seems hard to put his motivation on denial of advancement when he was intensely devoted to ideas of equality of the people and representative government. Now maybe you could say that if he'd had more opportunity for advancement he wouldn't have become so devoted to the common people, but if everyone can advance to the elite then you don't have an elite anymore do you?
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Dec 12, 2020 18:12
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Klyith posted:Huh. Is #1 societal inequality in general? I meant there are a lot of lawyers who are feeling like they should have more of a say in how the state is being managed. It's not the lack of advancement into the elite circle by non-elite, it's people who are assuming they are already elite feeling like they're not getting their fair share. Basically, when you start loving over your educated professionals that's a problem for you because these people have inside knowledge of how to break the system because they were the ones who were supposed to be maintaining it. #1 is widespread lack of confidence in legitimacy or a belief that the state fundamentally does not work. It should be noted this is about the Early Modern period and that's probably not nearly as relevant in the ancient context as it is in the modern context. This can be in either the elite strata or the popular.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:39
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if societal inequality was the best indicator for a revolution, there'd be a revolution every year
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Dec 12, 2020 22:11
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Ithle01 posted:One of the points in Goldstone's Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World is that insufficient space in the elite sphere is #2 of the eight causes that lead to state breakdown ...Uhh..what are the other 7? Asking for a friend. And how many apply to the USA right about now.
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Dec 13, 2020 04:23
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I believe it's been brought up here before. But why did the javelin fall out of favor in europe and the rest of the former Roman empire. Did advances in now technology make it uneconomical, or the lack of a manufacturing base?
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Dec 13, 2020 05:13
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Gaius Marius posted:I believe it's been brought up here before. But why did the javelin fall out of favor in europe and the rest of the former Roman empire. Did advances in now technology make it uneconomical, or the lack of a manufacturing base? It wasn’t as sexy to throw javelins while wearing trousers and the barbarians made fun of them
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Dec 13, 2020 06:06
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Gaius Marius posted:I believe it's been brought up here before. But why did the javelin fall out of favor in europe and the rest of the former Roman empire. Did advances in now technology make it uneconomical, or the lack of a manufacturing base? bows got better over time so it becomes less and less appealing to lug around tons of small spears vs a bow and arrows. javelins still hung around for a long time though and i don't think ever 100% got phased out till muskets and poo poo become standard.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:34
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Gaius Marius posted:I believe it's been brought up here before. But why did the javelin fall out of favor in europe and the rest of the former Roman empire. Did advances in now technology make it uneconomical, or the lack of a manufacturing base? None of the above. It's a weapon that is very useful for roman heavy infantry organization & tactics, and not at all with post-roman military. The legionary is a professional soldier who has been trained to fight in disciplined ways that protect the guys on either side. The pilum is a good weapon for blunting an enemy charge, or advancing against an enemy in superior position when you have to. You can chuck a javelin without dropping your shield. It's your tool to get into close combat with minimal disruption to your own formation and lots of disruption to the enemy front line. Once you are in close combat the superior roman training, uniform good equipment, and ability to do things like swap out fresh fighters without losing cohesion is how you win. Medieval armies aren't built that way. You have the core of knights / men-at-arms, who were cavalry and so didn't have the ability to use missiles. They're trained soldiers, but not nearly much of the training is for formation fighting like a legionary. You have the secondary servants & valets of the knights, who also have some training & equipment but are not at all cohesive. And then you have the peasants and townsmen who have no training and are either fighting for pay, or because they've been forced to. f you're lucky like the english your peasants are also practiced longbowmen, but that just makes them specialist non-soldiers. When the english started to get overconfident ideas about their longbowmen being invincible it bit them right in the rear end. None of the medieval soldier roles are the roman type of infantry, and none are at all suited to need a one or two-shot ranged weapon like a javelin. Klyith fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Dec 13, 2020 |
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Dec 13, 2020 06:49
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Javelins were used in medieval Europe, though. The Anglo-Saxons used them, and so did the Norse. The Spanish Almogavars had javelins, and so did Spanish light cavalry.
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Dec 13, 2020 07:06
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The javelin isn't some mystical weapon that you need elite roman training for, as evidenced by all the less-trained people who used them before the Romans came along. It's a pointed stick. You throw it at the other guys, not that complicated. They're not exclusive to use by heavy infantry either because they were also used by dedicated skirmishers of the ancient world. The Romans had them pre-Marius reforms. And while there was much more mounted cavalry in the medieval era, there was still plenty of infantry action.
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Dec 13, 2020 07:30
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SlothfulCobra posted:The javelin isn't some mystical weapon that you need elite roman training for, as evidenced by all the less-trained people who used them before the Romans came along. It's a pointed stick. That's not what I was implying at all. The fact that it's a simple weapon was probably a benefit. You chuck it and get your shield back in place. But it's one that works well as an integrated part of some tactics that rely on highly trained soldiers. I wasn't saying that javelins and other pointed sticks you can throw ceased to exist after the romans, and I hope that wasn't what Gaius Marius meant. But as pervasive, standard equipment like the romans used them? People had pointed sticks that they could throw, they didn't have pila. And they didn't go away due to technology or manufacturing. The pila ceased to be standard things due to military & economic differences in armies post-rome. Thought that's an interesting question I now have: after rome the javelin is one weapon among many, some people use it, but it's not at the top of the consciousness because it isn't a glamorous weapon. But did the romans actually glamorize the pilum at all? Is there a roman "this is my pilum" equivalent? What part of the legionary gear was most symbolic of the profession? It doesn't seem like the sword has the same pride of place to romans as it does later people. WoodrowSkillson posted:bows got better over time so it becomes less and less appealing to lug around tons of small spears vs a bow and arrows. I'd strongly disagree other ancient cultures, the parthians for example, didn't have bow technology 100% equal to medieval ones. They made bows of lighter draw weight than a longbow because you can't use a heavy longbow on a horse.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:05
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Klyith posted:I wasn't saying that javelins and other pointed sticks you can throw ceased to exist after the romans, and I hope that wasn't what Gaius Marius meant. But as pervasive, standard equipment like the romans used them? People had pointed sticks that they could throw, they didn't have pila. A pilum is a pointed stick you can throw. Saxon throwing spears were pretty much identical to pila and used the same way.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:25
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Epicurius posted:A pilum is a pointed stick you can throw. Saxon throwing spears were pretty much identical to pila and used the same way. Uh didn’t the pila have a soft iron length? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a throwing spear designed to break on the first throw other than a Roman pila.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:44
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LingcodKilla posted:Uh didn’t the pila have a soft iron length? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a throwing spear designed to break on the first throw other than a Roman pila. Some historians believe that the post-Marian pilum was redesigned so that the tip would bend or break off the shaft once it was thrown, or that the iron was deliberately made softer, again, so it would bend, based off of a quote by Caesar in his Gallic Wars and also something in Plutarch. Most modern historians don't tend to believe that anymore, though, due in large part to archeological and metalurgical findings that show that there wasn't really anything different about the metal used in pila than in other weapons, and that while Roman pila did sometimes bend on impact, it was due to poorer quality Roman steel. Peter Connolly wrote a bunch on this, as does Mike Bishop.
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Dec 13, 2020 09:48
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