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therattle posted:I’m not British. I occasionally support the english cricket team against neutrals but that’s about as far as my British “national pride” goes. (I always support Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France against England in 6 Nations rugby). I live here, and I like living here, in part because it’s a relatively free and decent place. I’m not blind to the UK’s past or present transgressions. But I think a lot of people are more negative about the UK than it deserves. Consider it a reflexive response to those sort of "This regime is uniquely terrible" arguments because in the west they are inevitably paired with "which is why we should bomb them immediately". Iran loving sucks, and interestingly Saudi Arabia sucks in almost exactly the same ways except often worse, but only one of those two nations is regularly held up as a uniquely evil enterprise.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:03
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Iran loving sucks, and interestingly Saudi Arabia sucks in almost exactly the same ways except often worse, but only one of those two nations is regularly held up as a uniquely evil enterprise. I don't think thats true.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:06
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OwlFancier posted:They are not "waved away" you pillock we recognize that they are part of the same fight, which is a drat sight better than your approach of just going "oh look at the horrible foreigners how awful they are let us be glad we aren't them" which reduces their and our struggle to just loving points on your idiot nationalist scoreboard. Whether you identify as british or not you certainly behave like one. They seem to be waved away because you haven’t said anything against them that I recall, instead trying to draw what feels to me like a false equivalence with what happens here. Recognising that they are part of the same struggle isn’t a way of thinking I’m used to so I’ll sit in that for a while. Likewise why I feel compelled to point out human rights abuses in Iran. goddamnedtwisto posted:Consider it a reflexive response to those sort of "This regime is uniquely terrible" arguments because in the west they are inevitably paired with "which is why we should bomb them immediately". Got it. BTW, I loving HATE Saudi Arabia. It’s probably top of my poo poo list. I agree it’s worse than Iran in most respects. But it doesn’t get defended here in the way that Iran does.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:07
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I don't think thats true. You're right, that sentence should have ended "in western media and political circles". The only criticism I've heard of Saudi Arabia in any mainstream press for the last decade has been over the Khashoggi murder and even then it's mostly been of the "now steady on old chap" variety.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:10
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You're right, that sentence should have ended "in western media and political circles". https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/03/the-observer-view-on-britains-relationship-with-saudi-arabia- https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/05/f1-confirm-saudi-arabia-2021-race-in-face-of-human-rights-criticism-formula-one-motor-sport https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/04/its-being-built-on-our-blood-the-true-cost-of-saudi-arabia-5bn-mega-city-neom Theyre pretty easy to find...
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Dec 12, 2020 19:18
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You're right, that sentence should have ended "in western media and political circles". I think there is criticism but not nearly as much as it warrants and not as much as Iran gets. Very little on SA’s role in Yemen, or the gender apartheid it practises
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Dec 12, 2020 19:20
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therattle posted:But I think a lot of people are more negative about the UK than it deserves. They are absolutely not. People are nowhere near negative enough about the UK. It is a toxic influence on the world and has been for many hundreds of years, plus what the government is doing to its own people with brutal austerity and now disaster capitalism. There are other bad countries too but the perpetuation of the myth of the UK as a "great nation" and excusing all of the awful poo poo it gets involved in is a large part of the reason why it all continues.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:24
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You're right, that sentence should have ended "in western media and political circles". I've been drinking white wine and gin with my bubble buddy who was asking for how to get into left wing thought, because she feels predisposed to my lefty feelings but unable to articulate her own sense of justice. I directed her to WDTATW and the Trashfuture episodes on Saudi-funded enterprise, to think about the relationship between money, resources and power. Saudi is responding to the decreasing relevance of oil with some... Interesting investments. I also starting gin-induced crying at my bubble buddy about how good of a person Jeremy Corbyn is and how unjustly he's been treated, which is true but not something I've cried openly about before. Just need some dude to walk up to me and say "he's not worth it love", only to respond "you don't know him like I do."
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Dec 12, 2020 19:25
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therattle posted:That was repealed 17 years ago and did not AFAIK lead to people being imprisoned for ten years, or hanged.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:26
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WhatEvil posted:They are absolutely not. People are nowhere near negative enough about the UK. It is a toxic influence on the world and has been for many hundreds of years, plus what the government is doing to its own people with brutal austerity and now disaster capitalism. I should have said a lot of people here. You’ll probably disagree with that too, maybe rightly. As far as the wider population goes, completely agree with you.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:26
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therattle posted:I should have said a lot of people here. You’ll probably disagree with that too, maybe rightly. As far as the wider population goes, completely agree with you. even here its only just approaching being negative enough
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Dec 12, 2020 19:29
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You don't develop transformative political attitudes with the view that the place you live in and Earth in general is an all right place really and just needs some rough edges sanded off.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:32
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Rumda posted:even here its only just approaching being negative enough Ok, so what are some non-terrible countries? I am not asking facetiously. Or is that the wrong question because all are bad albeit in different ways? I’d still think that some were better than others though. Is that contentious?
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Dec 12, 2020 19:43
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therattle posted:Ok, so what are some non-terrible countries? I am not asking facetiously. Or is that the wrong question because all are bad albeit in different ways? I’d still think that some were better than others though. Is that contentious? We should be ruthlessly critical of our own countries because we can, in theory, change them
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Dec 12, 2020 19:46
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therattle posted:Ok, so what are some non-terrible countries? I am not asking facetiously. Or is that the wrong question because all are bad albeit in different ways? I’d still think that some were better than others though. Is that contentious? Well aside from the fact that all countries are by there very nature corrupt. You would need to find one that hasn't committed aggressive war, repressed any internal or external peoples, held pretty much any colonial territory and that list pretty much covers almost every country out there but I could go on.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:47
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Allowing your emotional need to think that on a regular basis to intefere with your ability to be properly critical is a significant part of the objection, yes. I doubt most of us give a poo poo about putting the countries in a tier list rather than trying to stave off the problems we have to deal with every day. Why does there need to be a good country? Why do you give a poo poo about there being good countries?
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Dec 12, 2020 19:47
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https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1337830166098227200 Big things coming soon?
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Dec 12, 2020 19:49
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multijoe posted:https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1337830166098227200 I'll tell you what it won't be. A new political party that isn't trash being formed.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:53
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Jeremy Corbyn is going to announce Brexit. Edit: No wait he's going to announce he's signed a deal with the EU. Just troll the poo poo out of the Tories. namesake fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 19:54
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forkboy84 posted:I'll tell you what it won't be. A new political party that isn't trash being formed. Yeah I doubt it will be and if it were a new party for all the love I have for the man he isn't the one to be announcing it, but hope springs eternal
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Dec 12, 2020 19:55
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forkboy84 posted:I'll tell you what it won't be. A new political party that isn't trash being formed. But that's already happened
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Dec 12, 2020 19:56
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Its his 2021 calendar.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:58
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Its his 2021 calendar. Calendar Lads, featuring jezza and big john
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Dec 12, 2020 19:59
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I would buy a calendar of left wing politicians posing suggestively with things grown on corbyn's allotment.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:01
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OwlFancier posted:I would buy a calendar of left wing politicians posing suggestively with things grown on corbyn's allotment. I would but only if John McDonell poses with an ak-47
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Dec 12, 2020 20:02
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It'll be some sort of charity drive for some manner of marginalised group.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:02
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Continuity NIP posted:We should be ruthlessly critical of our own countries because we can, in theory, change them Makes sense. OwlFancier posted:Allowing your emotional need to think that on a regular basis to intefere with your ability to be properly critical is a significant part of the objection, yes. I don’t know. It’s a fair question. I did ask if it was even the right question to be posing.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:18
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Tomato and mozzarella sandwiches are back on the menu bois
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Dec 12, 2020 20:24
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Dodgy country chat: For all that's wrong with the uk most of us non-entities are still able to criticize the powers that be without being in fear of our lives. And also there are at least sort of half functioning democratic means of making our feelings known. I have friends living in countries where that is not the case so I'm careful eg on Facebook of I want to criticize eg Saudi Arabia to block them from seeing the posts because a mis- placed like or comment could have very serious consequences. I have an Iranian friend with family in Iran, quite a few living in Saudi, and many in Egypt where disappearances are high- something like 40000 in the first year of CC's reign (not checked numbers since then). Egyptian friends who know what is happening will only discuss face to face not via phone email or messenger. As one friend ended up in Tora prison after the secret police had monitored his phone for 6 months and he and another friend sat and listened to all those calls in front of his lawyer - including sexy chat with his girlfriend - don't think they can't monitor. (It wasn't any noble cause btw). Again apologies for all the grammos etc I hate phone posting! Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 20:29
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Dodgy country chat: This is all good and makes sense, but I guess the question that’s being posed is: what is the significance of saying that one country is better than another in certain regards? What useful function does it serve? I’m not sure I have an answer to that.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:33
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Dodgy country chat: The Harry Potter lady sympathises, she's basically going through the exact same thing.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:38
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therattle posted:This is all good and makes sense, but I guess the question that’s being posed is: what is the significance of saying that one country is better than another in certain regards? What useful function does it serve? I’m not sure I have an answer to that. It depends what you value. I have a friend who lived under Tito and said it was wonderful living in a dictatorship because everyone has a house, good education and healthcare and ok he killed 100000 people but if you kept your mouth shut and didn't criticize the government, and it wasn't anyone she knew so all was ok. After a couple of years of CC she started to change her mind because her Egyptian husband was finding not being able to speak freely very stressful (and affecting their marriage.). I'm sure many people think why not just shut up, keep your head down and life will be fine. (In many countries - see how police or military violence against protestors is often greeted with a 'should have kept quiet - they deserved it from many people.) Sorry for the crap grammar am phone posting again. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 20:50
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NotJustANumber99 posted:The Harry Potter lady sympathises, she's basically going through the exact same thing. Yes exactly. I wonder which desert prison they've shut her away in after various 'morality' inspections to her nether regions the secret police have carried out ... Erm. (PS I am assuming your post was not to be taken at face value!)
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Dec 12, 2020 20:52
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Yes exactly. I wonder which desert prison they've shut her away in after various 'morality' inspections to her nether regions the secret police have carried out ... Erm. we can but hope... Continuity NIP posted:But that's already happened That's still to be determined Rumda fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 20:54
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If you want the most... liberal argument I am willing to make then being aggressively critical of the country you live and encouraging everyone else to do the same is important to prevent them from being able to secure hegemonic support for that kind of repressive poo poo.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:58
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therattle posted:This is all good and makes sense, but I guess the question that’s being posed is: what is the significance of saying that one country is better than another in certain regards? What useful function does it serve? I’m not sure I have an answer to that. It's helpful to articulate the case for a better world by reference to examples. A freedom as a concept is difficult to fight for because you're asking people to make a change from a real situation to a hypothetical one. When you can show it working in practice, it becomes a change from one real situation to another real situation. Case in point is the steady decriminalisation of weed in the states.
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Dec 12, 2020 21:02
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therattle posted:Got it. I can't imagine someone getting away with going on about, say, Assad's 'cautious reform' even itt, let alone on the BBC. Saudi Arabia definitely gets an easier ride than Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, both from the press and from getting weapons from us at less than 500 miles per hour.
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Dec 12, 2020 21:12
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I think you absolutely have to be relentlessly critical of your own country, but you have to go about it in a certain way or you're only going to be preaching to the converted. I went through a period of being aggressively down on the UK to anyone who would listen and eventually no one did - I was rightly written off as a misery guts with no sense of perspective or nuance, or any willingness to concede that there are some good things about being here. Sure, in this forum go wild but if you try that with anyone who isn't already a rabid radical lefty you won't convince anyone or make any real terms progress.
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Dec 12, 2020 21:13
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I reckon Jeremy has grown a really, really, really big turnip just massive, it is, probly
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Dec 12, 2020 21:22
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anyone else feel that mark zuckerberg is probably the single most damaging influence in the world generally rn in terms of just how much stuff is getting hosed because he refuses to get involved and stop it. insane whatsapp groups sharing stuff in brazil was a big part of why bolsonaro won for example and we all know how damaging facebook refusing to properly moderate content is . a ton of stuff that facebook should be doing it doesn't specifically because of him
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Dec 12, 2020 21:28
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