Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


LittleBlackCloud posted:

What was the deal with anti-semitism in the USSR? Are there any good books about it?

from my passing knowledge it is a good tad more complicated than just like that

Trotsky, for instance, was a Jew, as many other bolsheviks were - this is literally the origin point of "judeo-bolshevism" hot take by the fascists - because the bolsheviks were the only political force who explicitly addressed against all forms of discrimination and prejudice (as any communist should) even to their political detriment; Imperial Russia had a long history of that and turned a blind eye to pogroms deemed convenient and it was seen as a sort of immutable fact of the country

as always, Lenin aced the drat thing during the early revolutionary period

"Anti-Jewish Pogroms", V.I. Lenin posted:

Anti-Semitism means spreading enmity towards the Jews. When the accursed tsarist monarchy was living its last days it tried to incite ignorant workers and peasants against the Jews. The tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organised pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. In other countries, too, we often see the capitalists fomenting hatred against the Jews in order to blind the workers, to divert their attention from the real enemy of the working people, capital. Hatred towards the Jews persists only in those countries where slavery to the landowners and capitalists has created abysmal ignorance among the workers and peasants. Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. This is a survival of ancient feudal times, when the priests burned heretics at the stake, when the peasants lived in slavery, and when the people were crushed and inarticulate. This ancient, feudal ignorance is passing away; the eyes of the people are being opened.

It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations. The capitalists strive to sow and foment hatred between workers of different faiths, different nations and different races. Those who do not work are kept in power by the power and strength of capital. Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers.

Shame on accursed tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations.

Long live the fraternal trust and fighting alliance of the workers of all nations in the struggle to overthrow capital.

but then, of course, he had to suffer some strokes and welp

given his own peculiar stake on this issue (his literal skin), I think Trotsky is a good reference on the matter

Leon Trotsky, "On The Jewish Question" posted:

[...]
You ask me if the Jewish question still exists in the USSR. Yes, it exists, just as the Ukrainian, the Georgian, even the Russian questions exist there. The omnipotent bureaucracy stifles the development of national culture just as it does the whole of culture. Worse still, the country of the great proletarian revolution is now passing through a period of profound reaction. If the revolutionary wave revived the finest sentiments of human solidarity, the Thermidorian reaction has stirred up all that is low, dark and backward in this agglomeration of 170 million people. To reinforce its domination the bureaucracy does not even hesitate to resort in a scarcely camouflaged manner to chauvinistic tendencies, above all to anti-semitic ones. The latest Moscow trial, for example, was staged with the hardly concealed design of presenting internationalists as faithless and lawless Jews who are capable of selling themselves to the German Gestapo.

Since 1925 and above all since 1926, anti-semitic demagogy, well camouflaged, unattackable, goes hand in hand with symbolic trials against avowed pogromists. You ask me if the old Jewish petty bourgeoisie in the USSR has been socially assimilated by the new soviet environment. I am indeed at a loss to give you a clear reply. The social and national statistics in the USSR are extremely tendentious. They do not serve to set forth the truth, but above all to glorify the leaders, the chiefs, the creators of happiness. An important part of the Jewish petty bourgeoisie has been absorbed by the formidable apparatuses of the state, industry, commerce, the cooperatives, etc., above all in their lower and middle layers. This fact engenders an anti-semitic state of feeling and the leaders manipulate it with a cunning skill in order to canalize and to direct especially against the Jews the existing discontent against the bureaucracy.
[...]

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?

Proust Malone
Apr 4, 2008

quote:

It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism.

The difference was that the OG reactionaries used Jewish prejudice to divide workers in order to deflect anger away from the aristocracy almost entirely like the race first / class first question in America today. The fascists used the same prejudice to hijack critiques of capital away from capital and financial institutions and reframe it as a racial or religious conspiracy. The problem isn't capital to the fascist, it's jewish bankers with the jewish part said loud.

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES
Lol

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
oh hell yeah

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

Don't forget the Autonomous Oblast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

It was an unsuccessful attempt within the Soviet Union to create a place where the Jewish people could rule over themselves, similar to the Zionist doctrine that led to the establishment of Israel. Again, it was unsuccessful because Zionism is garbage and the USSR fell apart. However, it was an attempt to grant autonomy to the Jewish people that they hadn't had in almost 2000 years because Lenin was a chill dude.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.


autism for fun and profit: the somethingawful story

e-dt
Sep 16, 2019

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Don't forget the Autonomous Oblast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

It was an unsuccessful attempt within the Soviet Union to create a place where the Jewish people could rule over themselves, similar to the Zionist doctrine that led to the establishment of Israel. Again, it was unsuccessful because Zionism is garbage and the USSR fell apart. However, it was an attempt to grant autonomy to the Jewish people that they hadn't had in almost 2000 years because Lenin was a chill dude.

It wasn't exactly in a choice location, though, which was part of the reason for its failure. Apparently they wanted to kill two birds with one stone by reinforcing the Chinese border and providing a home for Jews at the same time.

Victory Position
Mar 16, 2004

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

e-dt posted:

It wasn't exactly in a choice location, though, which was part of the reason for its failure. Apparently they wanted to kill two birds with one stone by reinforcing the Chinese border and providing a home for Jews at the same time.

Compared to how other states were treating the Jewish people at the time, it was downright saintly.

e-dt
Sep 16, 2019

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Compared to how other states were treating the Jewish people at the time, it was downright saintly.

No arguments there.

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

That includes the united States, btw.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
its mildly amusing that both the soviets and the japanese came up with the same hairbrained scheme to secure their shared border in manchuria

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES
The plan failed when that entire stretch of the border became movie theaters and Chinese restaurants

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

GalacticAcid posted:

The plan failed when that entire stretch of the border became movie theaters and Chinese restaurants

Lol early Christmas.

LittleBlackCloud
Mar 5, 2007
xXI love Plum JuiceXx
I'm talking about the later history. I've been led to believe Jewish people left the soviet union in droves later on.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
really really starting to wish somebody at RT would fire the loving idiot in charge of making these deliberately misleading video thumbnails!


https://twitter.com/PortableTVApp/status/1337838128220925952?s=19

interesting video btw, if you can ignore the fact that they're confusing Centrists with the left

BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Dec 13, 2020

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.

Race Realists posted:

really really starting to wish somebody at RT would fire the loving idiot in charge making these deliberately misleading video thumbnails!


https://twitter.com/PortableTVApp/status/1337838128220925952?s=19

interesting video btw, if you can ignore the fact that they're confusing Centrists with the left

call your handlers,

Pener Kropoopkin
GalacticAcid
R. Guyovich
Karl Barks
BrutalistMcDonalds
Larry Parrish
Dreddout
Sheng-Ji Yang
gradenko_
THS
rudatron
Plutonis
smarxist
i say swears online
Victory Position
apropos to nothing
Top City Homo
MizPiz
Graphic
WhiskeyJuvenile
jarofpiss
Atrocious Joe
GunnerJ
Darkman Fanpage
Jewel Repetition
Baloogan
Enjoy
Mr. Lobe
Tacky-rear end Rococco
Ruzihm

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES

T-man posted:


R. Guyovich

Come back king :smith:

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012


GalacticAcid posted:

Come back king :smith:

he probably did and got kinda owned in the covid thread when it was starting lol

Lady Militant
Apr 8, 2020

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

GalacticAcid posted:

Come back king :smith:

he posts here and has been doing gods work making fun of people for thinking james cameron is an anti-imperialist socialist visionary lol

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012


Lady Militant posted:

he posts here and has been doing gods work making fun of people for thinking james cameron is an anti-imperialist socialist visionary lol

lmao

Algund Eenboom
May 4, 2014

All my favorite celebrity directors have the same epic politics I do. For example, in many ways Rian Johnson is the “Gritty” of Hollywood

Doktor Avalanche
Dec 30, 2008

Lady Militant posted:

he posts here and has been doing gods work making fun of people for thinking james cameron is an anti-imperialist socialist visionary lol

why re-reg, it's not like most people here give a poo poo and those who do are qcs idiots

Lady Militant
Apr 8, 2020

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

Doctor Jeep posted:

why re-reg, it's not like most people here give a poo poo and those who do are qcs idiots

democratic centralism, returning as a re-reg causes the least disruption to the parties mission.

ToxicAcne
May 25, 2014
There was a good discussion about this in the France/Macron thread on CSPAM, but I wanted to hear this thread's analysis on the issue. Who the hell were the lumpenproletariat and why did Marx blame them for Napoleon III's coup? I get that he defined them as unemployed people, beggars, artists etc. but I can't wrap my head around why they in particular would be reactionary.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

ToxicAcne posted:

There was a good discussion about this in the France/Macron thread on CSPAM, but I wanted to hear this thread's analysis on the issue. Who the hell were the lumpenproletariat and why did Marx blame them for Napoleon III's coup? I get that he defined them as unemployed people, beggars, artists etc. but I can't wrap my head around why they in particular would be reactionary.

Eh....there might be a recent parallel in American politics.

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


poor people who don't work together in factories don't have a clear concept of themselves as a class, is the idea. they're "lumpen" because they're like potatoes in a sack, that can be easily grasped by exterior forces but can't easily stack or mesh with each other to get stronger.

is that right?

ToxicAcne
May 25, 2014
What would be the parallel? Guys like Tim Pool?

Doc Hawkins posted:


poor people who don't work together in factories don't have a clear concept of themselves as a class, is the idea. they're "lumpen" because they're like potatoes in a sack, that can be easily grasped by exterior forces but can't easily stack or mesh with each other to get stronger.


is that right?

Doesn't this make a huge portion of the "precariat" in Western Countries, lumpens?

Somebody fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 13, 2020

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

ToxicAcne posted:

What would be the parallel? Guys like Tim Pool?


is that right?

Doesn't this make a huge portion of the "precariat" in Western Countries, lumpens?

A different guy with T, M, and P in his name.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.

computer touchers

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012


T-man posted:

computer touchers

:hmmyes:

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

T-man posted:

computer touchers

esentially, yes.

Whenever some branches of marxists prove themselves unable to meaningfully recruit among a group that should be willing to join into a revolution, they decide to call them the lumpenproletariat instead of changing their propaganda.

e: by some branches I mean the branches that consist mostly of bougie failsons.

VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Dec 13, 2020

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

yeah as per the original definition, essentially large swathes of the first world economy has become lumpen-fied. i don't find it very applicable nowadays except to explain away failure. maybe cubicles are just the death of leftism and we're destined for the matrix jelly-pods

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.

would people be interested in a Let's Read Gender Theory thread?

- yes
- yes but also goku

Kindest Forums User
Mar 25, 2008

Let me tell you about my opinion about Bernie Sanders and why Donald Trump is his true successor.

You cannot vote Hillary Clinton because she is worse than Trump.
Regarding lumps, Sakai recently published a new book The Dangerous Class and Revolutionary Theory. I haven't read it myself, but there's a discussion about it on the rhizzone.

Finicums Wake
Mar 13, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 8 years!

T-man posted:

would people be interested in a Let's Read Gender Theory thread?

- yes
- yes but also goku

i'd post in that thread

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
gender queery

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ToxicAcne
May 25, 2014

Ardennes posted:

A different guy with T, M, and P in his name.

Who is this?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5