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Yeah those areas were a lot more open than presented in those screenshots. Like... there are roads, I guess... but you don’t have to stay on them. I do feel that I think the cities were more interesting to explore than between the maps initially because I enjoy talking to NPCs in games, but they also start introducing special monster mounts that you can hunt down and use to go off the beaten path and find treasure. There are a few islands where you can get flying mounts and soar around looking for treasure. But honestly Jupiter Jazz, I think the recent game I’ve played that feels most like what you’re looking for is BOTW, which admittedly isn’t an rpg but kinda makes you hunt down its story for the most part. It’d be cool to see a big budget JRPG take an approach like that, thinking about it.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:21
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Jupiter Jazz posted:I disagree. In my experience at almost any point I spent time in XI there's a yellow path to follow and that's it. It's always a linear tube. VIII has far more open fields where I might need to open a map to find where to go. youre just picking screenshots to justify your own opinions, fellow poster.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:24
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Also I see fuckloads of "edges" in those DQVIII screenshots, bc theyre of a JRPG map between two cities/dungeons/ w/e. Theyre all hallways and always have been, they just look more fun to hang out in.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:26
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Yeah I remember how open Dragon Quest games used to be! Like Five which opens up with *checks notes* you being on rails as the hero's dad takes the lead.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:26
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8 does have fairly expansive areas on the world map with no treasure or unique monsters. i'm not sure why that is a good thing, though. holy poo poo, another nondescript grassy cliff, this is so fulfilling.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:29
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Ran Rannerson posted:Yeah those areas were a lot more open than presented in those screenshots. Like... there are roads, I guess... but you don’t have to stay on them. I do feel that I think the cities were more interesting to explore than between the maps initially because I enjoy talking to NPCs in games, but they also start introducing special monster mounts that you can hunt down and use to go off the beaten path and find treasure. There are a few islands where you can get flying mounts and soar around looking for treasure. In my experience you're more closed in and there's almost nothing there. It always tells you where to by virtue of being tube like. DQVIII has more classical "where do I go?" element that's not as readily presented. XI uses more zones so to speak. I really, really like BOTW. It has the old adventurers spirit of old games but in a brand new modern take. It's pretty great. Shame it's so loving vast. I still haven't beaten it. I've also been loving Souls games. I love there's barely any cutscenes and you piece the story together with minimal dialogue, item descriptions, and visual storytelling. I don't know, I don't really like games anymore. My mindset and modern game mindset are completely different. I truly crave a deep RPG experience. One with stats and resource management and turn based gameplay and decision making. I've got some first person dungeon crawler rpg on Switch on my list and the new (technically "new" since it was on Vita) Shiren the Wanderer. Also going through Fire Emblem 1 right now. It seems wrpgs have over taken jrpgs for my wants these days. I hear great things about Disco Elysium. Unfortunately much of wrpgs seem to fall into some wish fulfillment simulator rather than being rpgs it seems, too. So that subgenre has its own can of worms.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:31
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I didn't really love Dragon Quest games until 8, and then 11 was 8 but better, so it's me! I'm the person they sold out for!! 
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Dec 15, 2020 19:33
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In Training posted:youre just picking screenshots to justify your own opinions, fellow poster. I have a name. Write it, fellow poster. I'm not really picking screenshots either. There was a beach picture that seemed promising. This was the best one but it's because you don't see what it's in front of you.  But even more edges!  In Training posted:Also I see fuckloads of "edges" in those DQVIII screenshots, bc theyre of a JRPG map between two cities/dungeons/ w/e. Theyre all hallways and always have been, they just look more fun to hang out in. Nope. DQVIII definitely allows more horizontal exploration. Dr Pepper posted:Yeah I remember how open Dragon Quest games used to be! Like Five which opens up with *checks notes* you being on rails as the hero's dad takes the lead. This is quite true. V isn't my favorite in terms of gameplay, but the storytelling makes up for it. And my original complaints against XI were in its story. Like usual, you pick apart arguments and respond to what you can rather than the whole. I do not like you. I'll put it out there. Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 19:34
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You might like Divinity: Original Sin, JJ.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:36
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Jupiter Jazz posted:This is quite true. V isn't my favorite in terms of gameplay, but the storytelling makes up for it. Yeah it's the exact same type of linear storytelling that XI has.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:37
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Dr Pepper posted:Yeah it's the exact same type of linear storytelling that XI has. V is far more constrained and less expository. I have already brought up V in my initial post. Although the current topic is linearity, it wasn't the original topic du jour, which was storytelling methods. But since you *checks notes* tend to operate on bad faith, I doubt you won't address the initial post and will *checks notes* continue pick which battles you'd prefer. Luceo posted:You might like Divinity: Original Sin, JJ. Yeah, that's an actual great rpg. I'm looking forward to the sequel, which i haven't played and is apparently even better. Which is awesome.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:43
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This series hasn't had that kind of open-ended structure since Dragon Quest 3. From 4 onward there are more plot gates than gameplay gates. But if you want to talk about nonlinearity in 11, a large portion of the events in Act 2 and almost all of them in Act 3 can be done in arbitrary order.
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Dec 15, 2020 19:44
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Yeah I ended up missing a lot of side exploration stuff in Act 2 just because I was so invested in the story and characters that I wound up tracking the path down immediately instead of visiting places that weren’t story relevant. It’d make a great excuse to play Dragon Quest 11 again, but there are so many other games to play... like more Dragon Quest.........
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Dec 15, 2020 19:51
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Bongo Bill posted:This series hasn't had that kind of open-ended structure since Dragon Quest 3. From 4 onward there are more plot gates than gameplay gates. But if you want to talk about nonlinearity in 11, a large portion of the events in Act 2 and almost all of them in Act 3 can be done in arbitrary order. I never claimed open-endedness is my want. But I also don't want to be told what to do. You say from 4 onward, but Torneko's chapter for instance, gives lots of leeway on how you control what happens and how to get there. It takes the wheels off and lets you do whatever. Maybe you want to farm swords for later? How you go about it up to you. It's not constantly yelling in your ear where to go. Neither are VIII or IX for that measure either. I'm not and haven't claimed DQ games in the past have ever been super open world games, but they allowed enough flexibility to make a wrong turn, get lost for a bit maybe, without much player guidance. It respected the player and the games acted like it. Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 19:52
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Most of the time, there's only one place to go. So is the difference that the characters express knowledge of where they're going next before they get there?
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Dec 15, 2020 19:59
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Bongo Bill posted:Most of the time, there's only one place to go. So is the difference that the characters express knowledge of where they're going next before they get there? Yes! Leave it optional and stop telling me where to go and what to do and blocking off paths and constraining my ability to explore. We already talked about the blocked paths last page. Let the player go there and see that the monsters are way above their level. Let them gently caress around a bit. Why all the handholding? Why all the blocked paths? Why the constant talking by Erik? Please tell me he dies. In FFVII, you're always headed to one destination too. And I can still explore to find Wutai, or go back and get Mithral for Aerith's Ultimate Weapon. gently caress! Stop limiting the player with stop gaps. It doesn't need to be an open ended sandbox like GTA but gently caress. Let the player live a little. In the past there was something called Party Talk that simply told you a detail like that. That's all you need. Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 20:02
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I really don't feel like the XI party nags you on that any more than Trode or Stella did.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:05
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so your main objection is that after a vignette, there is an ongoing narrative that gives you a reason to travel to the next location instead of nothing?
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Dec 15, 2020 20:06
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:so your main objection is that after a vignette, there is an ongoing narrative that gives you a reason to travel to the next location instead of nothing? Does XI even have vignettes? I got the ship and can't recall many if any at all. Ongoing narrative is fine.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:08
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kirbysuperstar posted:I really don't feel like the XI party nags you on that any more than Trode or Stella did. Trode is funny! He's not in your party and you don't get messages like this that pop up if you go where he doesn't want you to.  Is Trode doing this poo poo? gently caress no he's not. This ties into Persona 5. I'm trying to explore the game world but have a cat telling me I can't leave for hours and hours. A game telling me what to do constraining my ability to play it is an instant turn off. I don't know why, but it's a massive pet peeve.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:09
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Jupiter Jazz posted:Does XI even have vignettes? I got the ship and can't recall many if any at all. Ongoing narrative is fine. they aren't as discrete but the basic format of the game is still going to a town, solving whatever trouble they have then moving on to the next. it's really not that different.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:11
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Jupiter Jazz posted:Yes! Leave it optional and stop telling me where to go and what to do and blocking off paths and constraining my ability to explore. We already talked about the blocked paths last page. Let the player go there and see that the monsters are way above their level. Let them gently caress around a bit. Why all the handholding? Why all the blocked paths? Why the constant talking by Erik? Please tell me he dies. In FFVII, you're always headed to one destination too. And I can still explore to find Wutai, or go back and get Mithral for Aerith's Ultimate Weapon. gently caress! Stop limiting the player with stop gaps. It doesn't need to be an open ended sandbox like GTA but gently caress. Let the player live a little. I have never used party talk because I forget it exists. How is it a problem that instead of tucking exposition in a menu that's easy to ignore they give it to you?
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Dec 15, 2020 20:12
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:they aren't as discrete but the basic format of the game is still going to a town, solving whatever trouble they have then moving on to the next. it's really not that different. Correction: going to a town and being told a well told self isolated story. Sometimes related to the plot, sometimes not.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:13
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Act 1 might be the most linear part of DQXI but once you get the boat there is some degree of freedom. Like you can just straight up ignore where you're supposed to go next and instead visit the city with the casino several hours before the game wants you to go there.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:13
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Len posted:I have never used party talk because I forget it exists. How is it a problem that instead of tucking exposition in a menu that's easy to ignore they give it to you? I love party talk. In some games like IV it's crucial for learning more about the characters. Srice posted:Act 1 might be the most linear part of DQXI but once you get the boat there is some degree of freedom. Like you can just straight up ignore where you're supposed to go next and instead visit the city with the casino several hours before the game wants you to go there. So the main issue is Act 1? I never got to Act 2.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:15
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I don't see how anyone who liked DQ8 could dislike DQ11, they are practically the same game. Has anyone ever played X? Is it more of a narrative focused thing like FF14 or is it more like a traditional EQ style MMO?
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Dec 15, 2020 20:29
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Jupiter Jazz posted:So the main issue is Act 1? I never got to Act 2. How far did you get? After you get your party members you're basically free to explore the world. Also lol @ the point that they don't just throw away ideas. Monster recruiting was a part of 5, and 6 and was somewhat brought it back in VIII where it became a minigame.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:33
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monster recruitment kind of existed in 7, too. the monster ranch was pretty half baked in both versions, though.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:35
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Jupiter Jazz posted:So the main issue is Act 1? I never got to Act 2. Just the pre-boat sections of Act 1 honestly. Once you have a boat if you wanna just go explore other towns you're free to do so (outside of one gated section to the wider world that opens up later). Might not be able to do much in those other towns before the story wants you to be there but if nothing else visiting them means you'll have it set up to use Zoom on them later on.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:39
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Jupiter Jazz posted:I love party talk. In some games like IV it's crucial for learning more about the characters. Yeah but 11 just gives you that characterization and doesn't tuck it in a menu and I don't see how that's a bad thing?
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Dec 15, 2020 20:39
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There's various points in DQXI that open up to some exploration, especially in Act 2 and beyond, but there's portions of Act 1 that allow for it as well. It's still pretty clear where the game expects you to go next (and Act 2 cutscenes are very bad at hiding this) but the option is there. There's a difference between going to the next location in the game plot/progression wise because the game straight up tells you to do so via cutscene or objective marker and wandering around and deducing where the next logical location is based on your current toolset. And in the former, the knowledge that you're going in the "wrong" direction can be nagging. The latter is what a lot of people love about Metroidvania games and is also one of the complaints I remember about Metroid Prime 1 incidentally. There's an upgrade in Metroid Prime 1 that allows Samus to build up speed on half-pipe formations to access areas she couldn't before. The second you get that upgrade the game pulls up a menu and goes "scanning for half-pipe formations" and just straight up tells you where the half-pipes are. This is an example where exploration is done poorly on both fronts. First, the game just telling the player where to go next doesn't give the opportunity for the players who wanted to explore to figure out where to go. But, at the same time, there's a very good reason why the game does that. Up until that point, the half-pipe formations are just another quirk in the environment that the player pays no attention to and has no reason to remember the locations of all the ones they've stumbled across except maybe for the fact that a keen player might be mildly curious at the asset reuse. I am almost certain that in play-testing, the developers discovered that players straight up didn't remember where those half-pipes were and just got lost and complained they didn't know what to do next. There's an art in creating these kind of exploration locks that are memorable enough to the player that they'll remember what to do once they get the requisite item to progress without the game giving you an objective marker to pinpoint the location. A good example of this in a different game is Chrono Trigger. Throughout the game, you'll stumble upon mysterious sealed doors and treasure chests. Each is accompanied by a message telling the player they're sealed by a mysterious power which helps make them more memorable in the mind of the player. The party-chat system is the in between for this. If the player truly gets lost and needs help to find out where to go next, that's where party banter can jump in and provide clues.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:41
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AnimeIsTrash posted:How far did you get? After you get your party members you're basically free to explore the world. They don't throw away good ideas. Monster recruitment in V has many issues: 1. If you're lucky and get a specific monster you can easily just break the game. 2. It takes room away from a party member that could be there to make things more interesting. 3. You might as well have Luida's Tavern. The reality is that monster recruitment always kind of sucked and I have never considered it a positive towards V. I don't even rank V that highly outside of its story. Hiding monster recruiting somewhere in a minigame in VII and VIII was fine but at the end of the day, DQ isn't MegaTen and it was always an odd choice. Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 20:51
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Luceo posted:Context: I'm a Dragon Quest fan since the first game. It was the best Christmas ever, where I got my NES from my grandparents on Christmas Eve with Mario/Duck Hunt and then, in the morning, my parents gave me Dragon Warrior, Zelda II, and Castlevania II. That is one hell of a Xmas loot haul. 4 incredibly good games. I had them all as well, just not all at once like you. My copy of DW came along with Metroid, which was pretty spiffy. Hard to imagine playing Zelda 2 before the original, though.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:37
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Ofecks posted:Hard to imagine playing Zelda 2 before the original, though. Young me gave no fucks and played the poo poo out of it! But I did go looking for the first one afterwards.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:57
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DQ11 doesnt seem any more railroaded early on than say DQ7 which was the last one I really played. DQ7 has the distinction of not even letting you battle an enemy for like 2 hours as youre stuck on your island until you solve the puzzle.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:13
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Also DQ7 literally doesn’t have places to go until they are story unlocked.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:24
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You're right in that VII isn't that open. But it's also not constantly getting in my face about where to go. I'm able to enjoy it on my own terms. Maybe there's ways I can enjoy XI more. I really, really wanted to like it. Despite what you may think, not enjoying a DQ game is not something I want to do. I'll try to go in with a more open-mind next time. I'm hoping act 2 is as good as people say.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:46
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The game is a lot more open ended after act 1. Act 1 is more on rails to set the story, but certain events have you in a position where you can kind of go wherever you want.
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Dec 16, 2020 01:30
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Why on earth did they make Erik’s VA try to sound American when he obviously can’t do it consistently, it sounds so ridiculous, hahaha Still enjoying the game, but it will probably take me a year to finish it (i am an Old who only games in stolen 30 min. chunks)
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Dec 16, 2020 05:54
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Just finished Act 2 of DQ11. The final dungeon was pretty cool but the final boss was a bit of a letdown. Not in difficulty, but in how goofy as gently caress it looked. I much preferred the first incarnation of that boss. 83 hours in, and a whole post-game left to go. Looking forward to binging this over the holidays.
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Dec 16, 2020 06:05
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