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Mata posted:The swedish government does not have the ability to enforce a nationwide lockdown and I don't think a global lockdown would be much easier. They don't?
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Dec 17, 2020 15:05
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Nice piece of fish posted:They don't? I can imagine they can shut down local transit and put a few cops at city centers for a few hours of the day but I have a hard time seeing them execute a lockdown like what we saw in Wuhan.
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Dec 17, 2020 15:14
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Mata posted:I can imagine they can shut down local transit and put a few cops at city centers for a few hours of the day but I have a hard time seeing them execute a lockdown like what we saw in Wuhan. It's not just the logistics, it's that they need to rewrite the constitution afaik to implement a curfew/lockdown which would require an election as well. "– Enligt förarbetena till regeringsformen innebär det att det behövs särskild lagstiftning för förbud mot att röra sig fritt i en “viss landsände” eller att besöka andra delar av landet. Det gäller också förbud att begränsa medborgares rätt att lämna hemorten, avspärrning av större områden så som gränszoner och delar av skärgården, säger Titti Mattsson som är professor i offentlig rätt vid Lunds universitet." FHM:s legal department looked into it back in March and pretty much figured out that current laws do not allow them to lockdown more than specific buildings like a specific school or at the most a block of houses. It's not like the idea of introducing limitations of travel haven't been brought up, the rest of the country was begging Stockholm to be restricted back in Spring when it was the single major source of covid in the country. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 15:19
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The point is they didn't even try.
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Dec 17, 2020 15:26
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evil_bunnY posted:The point is they didn't even try. Look, they took the Flanders approach, to be fair.
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Dec 17, 2020 15:33
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Pingui posted:When you put it like that it sounds idiotic, however if you said "flatten the curve" it comes of much more professional and meritorious. Also, technically, you can flatten the curve vertically. Zombiepop posted:So my christmas got cancelled now. Thanks everyone who had to go shopping on black friday! Thank you all companies that just have to make a lil more money for your owners. A wonderful new term was added to the Danish vocabulary recently, "corona fatigue" (coronatræthed). No, it's not referring to the common lingering post-COVID symptom, but what someone feels when they're just so drat tired of looking out for their fellow man. lilljonas posted:It's not just the logistics, it's that they need to rewrite the constitution afaik to implement a curfew/lockdown which would require an election as well. Does that prevent them from strongly urging people to do it, though?
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Dec 17, 2020 15:52
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SplitSoul posted:
No and that's pretty much what they've been doing since Spring. Telling people not to travel if it's not an emergency, not to go shopping, stay out of places where there are lots of people etc. There are lots of things to blame on national agencies and politicians, sure, but there's also no-body holding a gun against peoples's heads forcing them to keep going to the loving gym during the worst pandemic in a century, and still a ton of people do. E: and yes, the people in my closer vicinity that I know of who got covid probably got it from regularly going to hot yoga. During a pandemic that spreads by droplets. God dammit. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 15:57
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lilljonas posted:No and that's pretty much what they've been doing since Spring. Telling people not to travel if it's not an emergency, not to go shopping, stay out of places where there are lots of people etc. But, like, more concrete: "If our constitution wasn't dogshit we'd be mandating that everyone do [things] right now."
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Dec 17, 2020 16:00
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SplitSoul posted:But, like, more concrete: "If our constitution wasn't dogshit we'd be mandating that everyone do [things] right now." I'm not sure what you mean, as that's pretty much what they've done all along? I mean, if people had actually followed the recommendations that have stayed pretty constant throughout the year, we would not have been where we are now. I agree that it can be lovely to blame individuals for a country-wide problem, but it's also not fair to say that we were not told, repeatedly, to stay the hell out of places where there people gather, stay out of shops, stay inside if you have any inkling of a symptom etc.
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Dec 17, 2020 16:04
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lilljonas posted:I'm not sure what you mean, as that's pretty much what they've done all along? I mean, if people had actually followed the recommendations that have stayed pretty constant throughout the year, we would not have been where we are now. I agree that it can be lovely to blame individuals for a country-wide problem, but it's also not fair to say that we were not told, repeatedly, to stay the hell out of places where there people gather, stay out of shops, stay inside if you have any inkling of a symptom etc. lilljonas posted:No and that's pretty much what they've been doing since Spring. Telling people not to travel if it's not an emergency, not to go shopping, stay out of places where there are lots of people etc. There are lots of things to blame on national agencies and politicians, sure, but there's also no-body holding a gun against peoples's heads forcing them to keep going to the loving gym during the worst pandemic in a century, and still a ton of people do. SplitSoul posted:A wonderful new term was added to the Danish vocabulary recently, "corona fatigue" (coronatræthed). No, it's not referring to the common lingering post-COVID symptom, but what someone feels when they're just so drat tired of looking out for their fellow man.
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Dec 17, 2020 16:32
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 This just popped up on my IG Weird choice of icon, I’ll tell you what
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Dec 17, 2020 16:37
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lilljonas posted:I'm not sure what you mean, as that's pretty much what they've done all along? I mean, if people had actually followed the recommendations that have stayed pretty constant throughout the year, we would not have been where we are now. I agree that it can be lovely to blame individuals for a country-wide problem, but it's also not fair to say that we were not told, repeatedly, to stay the hell out of places where there people gather, stay out of shops, stay inside if you have any inkling of a symptom etc. Unless they actually shuttered everything they could this is just shifting the blame and the point about the legality of a shutdown is moot.
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Dec 17, 2020 16:38
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Pingui posted:Unless they actually shuttered everything they could this is just shifting the blame and the point about the legality of a shutdown is moot. There's a strong case to be made that shutting down as much as they can would cause a lot more problems than it could solve and that it would not solve the pandemic. The unwillingness or inability to issue a mask mandate is weird to me though.
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Dec 17, 2020 16:43
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Mata posted:There's a strong case to be made that shutting down as much as they can would cause a lot more problems than it could solve and that it would not solve the pandemic. That may or may not be true, but it is a completely different argument than it being against the Swedish constitution. Edit: As an example the National Museum has been open and considering their 400k (before it became free after the refurbishment, 750k was expected in 2019) yearly visitors, that could probably have helped curb the spread. Would it have created a lot of problems if it had been shut down to the public? Pingui fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 16:44
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can't you call snap elections in sweden? emergency constitutional changes seems like the sort of thing which would be a very strong card in a snap election tbh
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Dec 17, 2020 16:46
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Mata posted:There's a strong case to be made that shutting down as much as they can would cause a lot more problems than it could solve and that it would not solve the pandemic. Except for, you know, the places that actually did just that and are finally relatively back to normal or have indeed been for months.
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Dec 17, 2020 16:53
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SplitSoul posted:Except for, you know, the places that actually did just that and are finally relatively back to normal or have indeed been for months.
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Dec 17, 2020 17:05
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SplitSoul posted:Except for, you know, the places that actually did just that and are finally relatively back to normal or have indeed been for months. Well I checked to make sure I wasn't missing anything but all western countries look to be having a hard time right now regardless of how hard they locked down before. If you're comparing to China then I agree, but my argument was that the Swedish government doesn't have the capacity to do what they did.
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Dec 17, 2020 17:19
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Sweden should just declare war on the virus, then you'd have all the legal options you need. Or just declare war on Micronesia or whatever if you need an actual country. I'm sure Denmark would be into a war to, but it might get too real.
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Dec 17, 2020 17:21
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https://twitter.com/Gavlebocken/status/1339213864651591680?s=20 At least something will survive 2020.
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Dec 17, 2020 17:36
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teen witch posted:
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Dec 17, 2020 18:03
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Touché
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Dec 17, 2020 18:27
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Nice
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Dec 17, 2020 19:15
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Buller posted:Nice
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Dec 17, 2020 19:19
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Asking individual people to take responsibility for a national, if not global, pandemic response is just lol. Blame your governments.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:20
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thotsky posted:Asking individual people to take responsibility for a national, if not global, pandemic response is just lol. Blame your governments. Agreed, let's do some serious downsizing and let the market handle it. This message brought to you by Saxo Bank.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:28
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SplitSoul posted:coronatræthed To be fair, I can kind of understand why some people have started complaining about the recommendations. The Danish strategy has been spot welding, and the rules are a product of horse trading, and are nonsense as a result. Assemblies are limited to 50... unless it's a sports event, then 500 is fine. Churches of course get to make their own rules. Exams are too risky to do in person... But going to a bar to celebrate is fine, until 10 in the evening, after which it becomes too dangerous. Parties with more than 50 people are too dangerous, unless it's a wedding, then 500 is safe. Outdoor funerals are terribly dangerous, so the limit there is 50. You must wear a mask indoors, and somehow this thing counts as one https://www.kontorland.dk/shop/product/visir-1-2-maske-plast-m-elastik--10 If you get infected, it is vitally important to do contact tracing, which is why it is largely left to the sick person's own initiative. I think you are more likely to get people to follow a few clear rules, instead of this mess of restrictions and suggestions. The restrictions are also too weak (or not being followed) to really stop the spread, so the restrictions end up having to be in effect for a long time. A shorter period with a harder shutdown might have seen less resistance from people.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:42
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I was at s funeral in the weekend. I can report that normal humans are not going to keep safe distance and wear masks for funerals on account of death being sad. The 50 person thing makes some kind of sense there. I wish people would have taken care not to spread the virus so I could have had a normal funeral without having to worry about a disease too.
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Dec 17, 2020 21:00
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BonHair posted:I was at s funeral in the weekend. I can report that normal humans are not going to keep safe distance and wear masks for funerals on account of death being sad. The 50 person thing makes some kind of sense there. In isolation and without the context of the other recommendations/rules they all kinda make sense as a means to curb spread. However in aggregate and barring actual hard rules, it leaves the population in the unenviable position of being both unguided and guided enough that it winds up being "personal responsibility" if you get sick. Essentially it is a way for politicians to simultaneously claim they are doing something, while doing nothing. Hence the teary-eyed proclamations of: "if only the population had done what we said, we wouldn't be in this position!".
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Dec 17, 2020 21:22
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Esran posted:To be fair, I can kind of understand why some people have started complaining about the recommendations. The Danish strategy has been spot welding, and the rules are a product of horse trading, and are nonsense as a result. I don't disagree with any of that, and there's a whole host of other reasons to criticise the government response (i.e., blaming immigrants), except that for a lot of people it does simply boil down to inconvenience. The party that is hammering hardest on the "FREEDUMS" poo poo has rocketed forward to fourth position in polls during this pandemic. That is not a coincidence or down to Minkgate. I also agree that having an ultimate goal is imperative to making it work. That's what the Australian states did, aimed for eradication and locked down hard. None of this would be out of reach if the political will existed. Anyone on welfare, especially people who are only "aktivitetsparate" (a good majority), are currently obligated to attend 4 hours of aktivering every week, in tiny enclosed spaces where masks aren't mandatory except when you arrive and leave. Attendees are directed to use the same single bathroom. Many of these people are also immunocompromised, close to retirement age and/or generally not in their best health. There are deep breathing exercises and gym exercises without masks even now. It is literally just wasting people's time to justify some bureaucratic requirements for municpal reimbursement. Many have been forced to attend these exact same "courses" three, four, perhaps five times in a row, for years on end. The press is more concerned with some loving professional animal abuser Trump type poo poo theatrics and second-guessing even modest preventive measures.
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Dec 17, 2020 22:27
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SplitSoul posted:I don't disagree with any of that, and there's a whole host of other reasons to criticise the government response (i.e., blaming immigrants), except that for a lot of people it does simply boil down to inconvenience. The party that is hammering hardest on the "FREEDUMS" poo poo has rocketed forward to fourth position in polls during this pandemic. That is not a coincidence or down to Minkgate. Yes. While there is always going to be dumb chuds going "just the flu bro", people were fairly willing to keep their distance early in the pandemic. quote:Anyone on welfare, especially people who are only "aktivitetsparate" (a good majority), are currently obligated to attend 4 hours of aktivering every week, in tiny enclosed spaces where masks aren't mandatory except when you arrive and leave. Attendees are directed to use the same single bathroom. Many of these people are also immunocompromised, close to retirement age and/or generally not in their best health. If we don't make it extremely unpleasant to be unemployed, how will the captains of industry find people willing to work during this period of historically low unemployment? Had a friend go unemployed for a while some years back, he mentioned that he had to spend 40 minutes each way to aktivering twice a week, to attend courses lasting maybe 2 hours a day. He got the stinkeye from the people running the courses when he suggested that they should run one 8-hour day once every 2 weeks instead. Aktivering is dumb liberal bullshit, and any time people start talking about means testing or "making people work for their welfare", I think about what a colossal waste meaningless make-work like this is. Edit: It is of course also cruel, but I find that argument usually doesn't work on most people, disapproval of the unemployed is too normalized. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 22:47
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Aktivering, and basically all requirements on the unemployed, are extremely fit for their purpose, which is to punish people for being unemployed. My wife spent two years unemployed, and got a lot of mandatory and well meaning requirements, which did absolutely zero to help her get employed. What eventually happened was a combination of luck and a recommendation from our neighbour landed her a job.
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Dec 17, 2020 22:58
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BonHair posted:Aktivering, and basically all requirements on the unemployed, are extremely fit for their purpose, which is to punish people for being unemployed. My wife spent two years unemployed, and got a lot of mandatory and well meaning requirements, which did absolutely zero to help her get employed. What eventually happened was a combination of luck and a recommendation from our neighbour landed her a job. Yes, and it should be obvious to anyone that they'd never be concerned with their health and that the cruelty is the point, but the dregs can then go out and infect productive members of society, ensuring even more leeches down the line. Weiss seconded a call for people in Copenhagen to cancel appointments, but this is still happening.
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Dec 17, 2020 23:08
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BonHair posted:Aktivering, and basically all requirements on the unemployed, are extremely fit for their purpose, which is to punish people for being unemployed. My wife spent two years unemployed, and got a lot of mandatory and well meaning requirements, which did absolutely zero to help her get employed. What eventually happened was a combination of luck and a recommendation from our neighbour landed her a job. Yeah, I went through a four week aktiverings course last year. It was basically adult kindergarten where we had to clock in, sit on the premises and search for jobs and write applications for 7 hours a day, with small breaks of useless presentations of how to make your linkedin look nice and how to use Google. We were supposed to get individual sparring sessions with the consultants but they had overbooked so only the ones who had the sparring mandated by the job center got to talk to them. God, I drank so much lovely coffee.
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Dec 17, 2020 23:08
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V. Illych L. posted:can't you call snap elections in sweden? emergency constitutional changes seems like the sort of thing which would be a very strong card in a snap election tbh Yes they should have called for a snap election in March, grinding any national decisionmaking to a halt for months in a political era where it took our parties half a year to figure out who to work with last time. That would have solved covid. I’m probably walking into a trap again but I’m curious about this thread’s inability to accept that a) Sweden’s government looked at the option of breaking the constitution and decided not to, and b) that there coulfd be mechanisms in place preventing sudden changes to the constution. I mean, you can call the constitution bad, sure, but there’s a huge chance that a political hurricane of poo poo (which the combined wreck of the now dead alliansen, the rise of a brown/blue coalition and the uneasy truce in the centre would have absolutely guaranteed) would not have improved anything. If you dig deeper you’ll find a lot of blame rests on previous governments, left and right, and healthcare services, which are led by both sides pretty much 50/50 across the country. Which is why pretty much no politicians really dare to start pointing fingers. Just today, Svenonius (m) who is in charge of the healthcare economy of Stockholm said that things are hunky dory and it’s not an emergency. The right is in charge of Stockholm’s healthcare so you see a pretty big reason there why they’ve been almost silent on covid all year. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 23:19
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BonHair posted:Agreed, let's do some serious downsizing and let the market handle it. This message brought to you by Saxo Bank. I don't get this reference, but if you mean "close the borders, enforce social distancing, begin aggressive tracing and quarantine efforts, provide financial aid to workers and nationalize businesses wholly depending on import labor" then yeah. I would also accept going back in time and doing that in the first place.
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Dec 18, 2020 00:52
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I spoke with a friend over the phone yesterday and he had spent a week with a cold after going on a busride with people loudly sniffling directly behind him. No masks. My mother is going to visit her mother, yet again, but the local commuter train wasn't running so my dad had to give her a lift to the city trainstation, and they decided to give a random stranger a lift. Stuck in a cramped car with no masks for half an hour and my dad sets the car temperature to 23 degrees with people wearing winter clothing. I don't even know. But that's how people act responsibly apparently. Haven't seen a mask wearer all week.
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Dec 18, 2020 01:18
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lilljonas posted:Yes they should have called for a snap election in March, grinding any national decisionmaking to a halt for months in a political era where it took our parties half a year to figure out who to work with last time. That would have solved covid. I see. Would you mind: 1. Citing the exact part of the swedish constitution that bans infectious disease control measures? (Or at least some sort of reasoning we can read from a constitutional legal scholar who is not affiliated with the government) 2. Citing the infectious disease control legislation sweden does have to show how it is limited in scope to the actions of the swedish government. 3. Explaining how that lines up with Tegnell's claims just before the second wave that "there will be no second wave, Norway is the weird one and the guinea pig for disease control here, we have herd immunity"? Because to an outside observer, it really does look like a completely failed containment strategy and subsequent excuses.
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Dec 18, 2020 08:02
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Regeringsformen is right here and I'd advice to just go over it yourself since it's not very long. Chapter 2 is the relevant one to these discussions as the measures government have taken predominantly fall under 24 § and reasons for it being unable to act fall under 8 §. Regeringsformen supercedes every other law, so when in conflict Regeringsformen is what counts.
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Dec 18, 2020 08:22
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Nice piece of fish posted:I see. IANAL but here's how it was reported back in April. So it's not something that was invented after the fact, it was an issue that was debated frequently back in Spring. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/darfor-kan-sverige-inte-utfarda-utegangsforbud The article cites a professor in public right at Lund university, which is one of the top universities for law in Sweden. She's agreeing with the government's interpretation of the limits in the constitution. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Dec 18, 2020 |
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Dec 18, 2020 08:55
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