|
Minimum spacing for unshielded ethernet from AC wiring is 16". The ideal is running ethernet in a metallic conduit. I want to set up a rack with a 220V circuit and a switch that will be sort of a central hub for various links coming in from around the house, so the cables will be running in parallel to the AC power lines, coming out of the ceiling to the switch. Could I instead do it the opposite way and instead of having the ethernet in metallic conduit, would the conduit that the AC will be running in, down the wall to the outlet be considered enough to shield it here? Or does the wire-in-a-conduit not really do anything much to attenuate the magnetic field of the wire? I'll be running Cat6A (shielded) for 10gbe here but there will also probably be unshielded cat5e for at least some runs that don't need 6A. https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/running-ethernet-and-power-cable Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Dec 17, 2020 |
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:28 |
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Minimum spacing for unshielded ethernet from AC wiring is 16". The ideal is running ethernet in a metallic conduit. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. You won't have measurable interference issues with a few feet of parallel runs, especially for home use.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
Yeah, I would agree that you are overthinking it. I have some Ethernet runs that are unfortunately in the same path as some romex for about 8 feet and they don’t experience any issues. Also shielded cat6 is a waste of money for residential unless you have a drat good reason.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 21:47
|
|
|
I've seen much longer parallel runs with many, many more cables involved (large quantities of power run in parallel to large quantities of unshielded twisted pair) with no problems. Now I'm wondering what you'd have to do to actively cause problems. Cut the sheathing off, split the pairs apart, and run power straight through the middle? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
Ok, I am prepared for ridicule and I think the right answer might just be to return these things to Amazon and buy some drat corded lamps. My experience is with electronics and I'm a little freaked out dealing with mains AC power instead of just <12v DC. I apologize for blurry pics. It's dark in this room! I bought a couple of wall lights. I assumed they'd just plug into a power bar like everything else. However, they just came with a black (neutral?) wire and a white (hot?) wire hanging out. They look like this, power cord arrangement is dangling off to the right:  I cut a power cord off an old lamp and kept it for just this reason. So I wired them up in series since the bulbs going in are 5W LEDs and I would think the full 120v would be sufficient even with the load on the system. They worked fine when I tested them before attaching them to the wall!  The series circuit I made goes like this: hot from plug to hot on the first receptacle, neutral to second receptacle's hot, neutral on the second receptacle to neutral on the cord, into a power bar. This wouldn't power the second receptacle's bulb, regardless of arrangement. Here's my hacked together wiring complete.  So today, I wired them up in parallel, just joining the marrettes with another cannibalized power cord to make two loops.  This arrangement pops the surge protector on the power bar I plug the lamp cord into. What gives?
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
devmd01 posted:Also shielded cat6 is a waste of money for residential unless you have a drat good reason. It's about 33% more expensive than cat5e at this point (although the connectors are a buck a pop, and it uses a different tool). Monoprice has 1k foot spools of 5e for $160 or 6a is $215. I have 10gbe in select locations in my house now (eg direct-attach between my fileserver and my desktop) and I'd like to have cat6a for at least key parts of my network: in the rack, in my office, and the backbone between. Switches are finally coming down, Mikrotik has some 4x10gbe (plus 1x1gbe) SFP switches for about $125, I can have one of those in my office and have 3 fast machines plus a 10gbe backbone link, and one downstairs in the rack, and link them with SFP-10GBaseT modules (about $40 a pop). The alternative is fiber, or drilling a bigass hole in the floor and shoving a SFP copper cable through (this specific run would be under the length limit, but other places are too long. I need to buy some cable and I might as well just start putting in 6A because oh, then I could run a fast link to my scanner / photo editing PC in another room, I could run my VR PC off iSCSI from the central server, etc). And yes I do have the drive performance to back it up on my fileserver and on my desktops. IOwnCalculus posted:I've seen much longer parallel runs with many, many more cables involved (large quantities of power run in parallel to large quantities of unshielded twisted pair) with no problems. The use-case where I've seen it referenced as a problem is where commercial installations think they're going to save a buck by pulling ethernet and power at the same time. Which means "together". So you have power and ethernet squeezed into the same riser, running in parallel at close spacing for hundreds of feet. I guess I'm overthinking that one and I can always put in a conduit if it turns out to be a problem. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Dec 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 22:06
|
|
|
tuyop posted:This arrangement pops the surge protector on the power bar I plug the lamp cord into. What gives? Immediately stop what you're doing right now. Literally none of your experience translated to this project correctly. In residential mains AC, black is hot, white is neutral. Everything is wired hot-to-hot and neutral-to-neutral. Literally everthing. "5W LED" says literally nothing about the voltage. If they have a normal lamp socket base, they're 120V. They need to be wired 120V. On that lamp cord, the neutral wire is the side with the ridges/bumps/markings on it. Finally: these fixtures are designed to be hard-mounted to actual rated electrical boxes in a wall. They are not for the purpose you're using them for. Return them and get corded lamps.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 22:19
|
|
|
tuyop posted:
Stop trying to wire 120VAC devices in series. Each device (bulb) should have a full 120 volts across it. Tie all your hots together with one wire nut. Tie all your neutrals together with one wire nut. Oh wait holy poo poo I didn't even realize you were trying to use them like lamps without electrical boxes. Listen to the guy above me and get the right stuff.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
Just to correct some misconception on hospital outlet chat, the orange outlet body is a convention to indicate isolated ground circuits which usually are also connected to the emergency backup power system. It has no bearing on "hospital grade" status of the outlet, which ia indicated by a circular green dot, and means the outlet meets standards requiring a greater than usual pulling force to dislodge the plug, and specifically provides that the ground pin shall not dislodge for a 4oz pulling force
shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 22:30
|
|
|
tuyop posted:Ok, I am prepared for ridicule and I think the right answer might just be to return these things to Amazon and buy some drat corded lamps.  Your thing is tripping because you have wired up a dead short. Get some floor lamps imo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 22:33
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:Now I'm wondering what you'd have to do to actively cause problems. Cut the sheathing off, split the pairs apart, and run power straight through the middle? Fluorescent lights. The number of times early in my VoIP career that the problem with a certain extension's voice quality turned out to be a Cat5 wire that had been frisbeed across a drop ceiling and was laying directly atop fluorescent fixtures and/or their ballasts. If there was enough slack to reroute the line a few feet in either direction it was usually good enough to solve the problem. Also big industrial equipment. Shop floor phones always have problems to the point that these days we generally just do fiber to a media converter and tell them they don't get PoE for those.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:Immediately stop what you're doing right now. Ok yeah, I was worried about that. Thanks for the explanation, though. I'll send these back and grab some lamps, though. And return to arduinos and such. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
Weird sort of electrical question... when I put the amp clamp of my meter on the ground wire for my cable television line, I see about 0.1a. Is this normal?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2020 02:51
|
|
|
Unfortunately, yes. Cable and telco companies bond on to the ground wire at your electric meter base. They also bond to the POCO's ground at the pole (or padmount transformer) anywhere they can. There are various reasons for this. But, this means that the shielding or whatever grounded conductor in their cable is an alternate path for regular neutral current back to the transformer that feeds your house. A high impedance conductor, but electricity takes all paths. It's not a problem until you have an open neutral conductor situation.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2020 03:40
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:.... but electricity takes all paths. This right here, is the biggest thing most people miss with electricity. I suppose that, and that any two wires laying parallel to each other is a transformer. :-)
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2020 18:06
|
|
|
tuyop posted:This arrangement pops the surge protector on the power bar I plug the lamp cord into. What gives?  The wire circled in red is a dead short. Remove the green wire between the left lamp's neutral and the right lamp's hot and you will kinda fix your problem. The breaker Hard wire your lamps in the wall with a switch, proper boxes and wiring, or return them and buy proper lamps designed to be plugged into outlets. If you're still determined to pursue this fire hazard, you would need a heavier gauge extension cord or a way to install a fuse on the wire. Your lamps are designed to be installed with 14 gauge 15amp or 12 gauge 20amp solid core romex from the circuit breaker all the way to bulb socket, when setup properly the weak link is the circuit breaker in your panel. If your lamp was originally made to fit a 120 watt incandescent bulb (that's holy poo poo level bright, it probably wasn't designed for a 120w bulb), then your lamp cord is might be designed to carry up to 1 amp, the weak link is no longer the circuit breaker. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Not Wolverine fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Dec 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 06:42
|
|
|
Not Wolverine posted:
No. Do none of this, please.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 07:09
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:No. Do none of this, please.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
Not Wolverine posted:Care to explain? The green wire is the dead short, the rest of it is possible but a bad idea for reasons which I've listed, the lamp cord cant carry the load and the connections will be loose even if the hots and neutrals are connected in the correct order. In my opinion, just telling someone "shut up and hire a professional" without saying why is unlikely to convince someone to actually do the right thing instead of ignoring your advice and continuing to try to wing it on their own. As shown this is no where near safe. The dead short is a feature. It needs to be in a box in the wall. Needs to use nm-b.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 07:42
|
|
|
Not Wolverine posted:Care to explain? The green wire is the dead short, the rest of it is possible but a bad idea for reasons which I've listed, the lamp cord cant carry the load and the connections will be loose even if the hots and neutrals are connected in the correct order. In my opinion, just telling someone "shut up and hire a professional" without saying why is unlikely to convince someone to actually do the right thing instead of ignoring your advice and continuing to try to wing it on their own. It's a massive fire and personnel shock hazard, those conductors aren't reacted to be exposed, wire nuts aren't an appropriate exposed splicing means and could come loose, metal digging into the wires at the fixture edge. Plus who knows what from being wired by someone who is so ignorant of writing methods that they wired in a dead short. (Not their fault, just inexperience, and they were smart enough to listen to others and return the sconces)
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 07:59
|
|
|
If they’re still determined to pursue the fire hazard after being told by a raft of experts that they’re going to burn their house down that is something that we can not and should not offer any advice on whatsoever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 10:25
|
|
|
Not Wolverine posted:In my opinion, just telling someone "shut up and hire a professional" without saying why is unlikely to convince someone to actually do the right thing instead of ignoring your advice and continuing to try to wing it on their own. In addition, nobody said this. OP said themselves that their next probable course of action was regular cord and plug lamps, which is what they originally thought they were buying, and is the easiest solution. Nobody was rude about it. Also, they have no EGC in that lamp cord, so shock hazard via the ungrounded metal light housing is very real in this setup and supercedes your concerns over conductor size which is actually probably fine (for cord and plug). There is no reason to advise on how to "fix" this, it's a hazard top to bottom and a liability for everyone. Don't stop posting here with your electrical questions, though. Nobody is trying to run you off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 15:26
|
|
|
Not Wolverine posted:
I appreciate the thoughtful post, but I’m definitely just returning them and using a corded set!
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 16:14
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:Also, they have no EGC in that lamp cord, so shock hazard via the ungrounded metal light housing is very real in this setup and supercedes your concerns over conductor size which is actually probably fine (for cord and plug). There is no reason to advise on how to "fix" this, it's a hazard top to bottom and a liability for everyone. This is absolutely true, plus it was just missing the forest for the trees in every way. The way you would adapt a fixture like that for cord and plug for film or theatre requires a handy box and a bunch of 14/3 SJOOW from a stage pin cable (16/3 would work but nobody bothers carrying that.) and it would still be installed by a trained electrician, mounted to the set, and only removed for transport and storage. The concern isn’t and has never been the ampacity of the lamp cord, it’s everything else about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
Hey, quick sanity check: Is "just tie that fucker off wherever" a code-permissible means of bonding for an over-sink kitchen light? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 19:36
|
|
|
corgski posted:This is absolutely true, plus it was just missing the forest for the trees in every way. The way you would adapt a fixture like that for cord and plug for film or theatre requires a handy box and a bunch of 14/3 SJOOW from a stage pin cable (16/3 would work but nobody bothers carrying that.) and it would still be installed by a trained electrician, mounted to the set, and only removed for transport and storage. Agreed, and it's why I replied so rapidly and in the way I did. If it had been a "something's not quite right" picture and post, then that indicates a certain level of technical ability. The fact that there was a direct and obvious phase-to-phase short hardwired in and the question was "why is this popping breakers" indicates a significant gap in knowledge. Each line in my post was deliberate and designed to impart knowledge to the poster. If tuyop had said "oh, I didn't know that, how do I do this properly" then I believe we could have followed up with something like what you said. Since they literally said "Ok, I am prepared for ridicule and I think the right answer might just be to return these things to Amazon and buy some drat corded lamps." I agreed at this assessment. First reactions are typically correct when you're out of your depth. tuyop, thank you for listening and not getting discouraged. There is a least-wrong way to turn a fixed sconce into a portable sconce, but the easiest way is just get the proper thing from Amazon. corgski: 14/3 SJOOW? Man, when when we were doing temp light strings, we could only use SO-flavored cords, nothing SJ at all. I suspect it's because nobody except the electricians on the jobsite would ever move temp power cords to avoid running over them with the scissor lifts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 19:43
|
|
|
Hubis posted:Hey, quick sanity check: Your wiring looks too old to have a grounding conductor, so might as well use the one on the light for SOMETHING. (E: kidding obviously, does your wiring have a ground? If not you should at least remove the grounding conductor on the light so it doesn't end up contacting the hot and energizing the fixture. ) babyeatingpsychopath posted:If tuyop had said "oh, I didn't know that, how do I do this properly" then I believe we could have followed up with something like what you said. Since they literally said "Ok, I am prepared for ridicule and I think the right answer might just be to return these things to Amazon and buy some drat corded lamps." I agreed at this assessment. First reactions are typically correct when you're out of your depth. The thing is there's no way to make that assembly code legal, cord and plug connected devices have to be UL listed as an assembly, the rules for temp lighting/ stage and set design are different from those for a residence, and that's for good reason. I've cobbled together some interesting electrical apparatus before, that are properly grounded, and I think are safe, but in no way would I ever advise anyone on the internet on how to build something that doesn't strictly meet code, because the potential consequence for loving up electrical work is death. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
Hubis posted:Hey, quick sanity check: to me that looks like a tie off for an overhead fixture so that it doesn't fall and bonk someone if it comes loose. It's not an actual bond.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 22:48
|
|
|
EvilBeard posted:to me that looks like a tie off for an overhead fixture so that it doesn't fall and bonk someone if it comes loose. It's not an actual bond. That's incorrect. You can see that: A) it's copper, not a cheaper less conductive, stronger material. B) it's specifically crimped into a ring terminal that's sandwiched in bare metal, for better electrical contact. Any anti-bonking characteristics are purely secondary.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 22:54
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:That's incorrect. I didn't say it was done properly. To me, judging by the quality of the work there, any actual electrical contact would be purely secondary.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:The thing is there's no way to make that assembly code legal, cord and plug connected devices have to be UL listed as an assembly, the rules for temp lighting/ stage and set design are different from those for a residence, and that's for good reason. Not disagreeing per se, but are you sure that's a code requirement? That the NEC dictates using UL listed devices, I mean. It's long standing advice of this forum that cord-and-plug connections sidestep some code requirements of permanent installation. I also know that according to our resident goon insurance adjuster, lack of UL listing in a device that causes a structure fire will not preclude a rightful payout. EvilBeard posted:to me that looks like a tie off for an overhead fixture so that it doesn't fall and bonk someone if it comes loose. It's not an actual bond. Elviscat posted:That's incorrect. You edited, but I was gonna post whynotboth.gif 
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 23:03
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:I also know that according to our resident goon insurance adjuster, lack of UL listing in a device that causes a structure fire will not preclude a rightful payout. As the resident goon former fire marshal I can also tell you that I've been involved with cases that not only had insurance payout to the homeowner for non-ul-listed devices that caused a fire, but that the company/companies who manufactured such a device had negative consequences. In the same capacity I would like to tell you that UL listing is like building/electrical/plumbing code: it's not a high bar to pass. So if something you have isn't UL listed it's either super niche/low volume and this is a cost thing or the device is just unmitigated chinesium poo poo that shouldn't be in your home. Potentially and often both.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
And in the niche world of stage and theatre where temporary placement of permanent lightning fixtures is a thing, there is in fact a proper way to do it that doesn't break any rules of the NEC. Right? Maybe it's not a thing we advise here (anymore? Depends?), but it's not illegal. Low bar and all that, but I was seeking clarification of Elviscat's assertion that babyeatingpsycopath was wrong. .....What a weird sentence.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 00:10
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:And in the niche world of stage and theatre where temporary placement of permanent lightning fixtures is a thing, there is in fact a proper way to do it that doesn't break any rules of the NEC. Right? Yeah, I mean.....that's literally a completely different set of chapters in code because it's a totally different thing. By definition, it's temporary. It's also being enclosed/can be enclosed in a space meant to deal with faults: flame proof curtains between the stage and audience, commercial building. It's also being monitored while in use. It's so completely different from the reasons and requirements of resi and commercial fixed electrical that it's nearly impossible to have a discussion about it with someone who doesn't already understand that concept.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
EvilBeard posted:I didn't say it was done properly. To me, judging by the quality of the work there, any actual electrical contact would be purely secondary. Oh, I thought you were saying that was that conductor's intended purpose. angryrobots posted:Not disagreeing per se, but are you sure that's a code requirement? That the NEC dictates using UL listed devices, I mean. It's long standing advice of this forum that cord-and-plug connections sidestep some code requirements of permanent installation. The NEC does dictate using "listed" devices, usually this means a NRTL (National Registered Testing Laboratory) because that's what OSHA says, but the US is mostly the wild loving west in terms of code enforcement.   For cord and plug connected devices, if I were an inspector I'd shoot the "nice" way of doing this (metal box, bonded, strain relieved well etc) down under 400.12 (A), the prohibition on using flexible as a replacement for structural wiring, those luminaries are intended to be hard-mounted to a box wired with a prescribed wiring method, I don't feel like they would fall under the exception for a pendant, because they're not pendants, they're sconces, and they wouldn't be cord or raceway supported, they'd be supported by a permanent attachment method to the wall.  E: angryrobots posted:And in the niche world of stage and theatre where temporary placement of permanent lightning fixtures is a thing, there is in fact a proper way to do it that doesn't break any rules of the NEC. Right? Maybe it's not a thing we advise here (anymore? Depends?), but it's not illegal. Motronic posted:Yeah, I mean.....that's literally a completely different set of chapters in code because it's a totally different thing. By definition, it's temporary. It's also being enclosed/can be enclosed in a space meant to deal with faults: flame proof curtains between the stage and audience, commercial building. It's also being monitored while in use. It's so completely different from the reasons and requirements of resi and commercial fixed electrical that it's nearly impossible to have a discussion about it with someone who doesn't already understand that concept. Exactly this, there has to be some consideration for practicability, it's not feasible for a crew of electricians to come in and redo a bunch of runs of RMC or EMT up to code for stage and set design stuff, it's not impracticable to buy listed cord and plug connected devices for your apartment where you and your neighbors sleep. E2: I'm also not asserting that a well made lighting contraption is more safe than dubious products off the internet, just that I would never advise someone on how to cobble one together. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Dec 20, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 00:20
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:it's not feasible for a crew of electricians to come in and redo a bunch of runs of RMC or EMT up to code for stage and set design stuff, it's not impracticable to buy listed cord and plug connected devices for your apartment where you and your neighbors sleep. Please don't use my post to make that leap. Thanks. I'm not willing to advise amateur electricians to adapt fixtures that are meant to be permanently mounted on boxes that it's okay if you just buy the right parts.......
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 01:05
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Please don't use my post to make that leap. Thanks. We're saying the same thing though? That you should just buy a light that's meant to be plugged in? E: I don't know how you could possibly misinterpret my thousand word post, with in line code citations, about why adapting fixtures is not okay, am I going insane, am I missing something in your posting? E2: is it because I hosed up and used a double negative? Elviscat fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Dec 20, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
The easiest thing here would be to use a L14-20R as both a plug and support mechanism. Solves all of our problems.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 01:31
|
|
|
I have a two conductor outlet that has a cheater plug in it, then 2x (3 conductor) power strips (daisy chained) plugged into that. Powers bedside lights, phone chargers, low current things like that. Wiring is knob and tube, so there is no ground. I can't rip open the walls to pull a ground (2nd floor, lath and plaster). I'd like to eliminate the daisy chaining and the cheater plug. Can I replace the outlet with a GFCI and float the ground? Is this wise? Apparently GFCI + the old knob and berries can cause frequent nuance trips and there is no way to know, until I start messing with it. I am doing this as I am on a crusade to banish all cheap/lovely plastic MOV surge suppressor strips as I view them as a fire hazard. I have been replacing them with UL listed metal housing strips, and I installed a $$$ suppressor device on my main panel. I don't actually have to change anything here, there isn't an immediate problem other than the one I am making. A buddy's buddy had his garage burn down with the cause being a lovely decade old surge suppressor.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 02:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:28 |
|
|
horse_ebookmarklet posted:I have a two conductor outlet that has a cheater plug in it, then 2x (3 conductor) power strips (daisy chained) plugged into that. Powers bedside lights, phone chargers, low current things like that. Wiring is knob and tube, so there is no ground. I can't rip open the walls to pull a ground (2nd floor, lath and plaster). I don't have an answer to your questions, but I was in almost your exact situation in my old house. 1 ungrounded antique simplex receptacle for the whole bedroom. I had 3 of the cheapo walmart extension cords daisy chained around the perimeter of the room so I'd have receptacles in each corner. Only ever had a couple led lamps, phone charger, and an electric blanket plugged into it so about 300 watts max. No cheater plug or anything with a ground though, I think having the ability to plug in a 3 prong appliance to a completely ungrounded and unprotected socket even if you never intend to is a bad idea. You might not be the only person to use that room, and you might forget yourself. I'd definately put in a gfci as a no-equipment-ground receptacle if you absolutely have to use a 3 prong appliance in there. I might be wrong but I don't think indivdual surge supressors will do anything without a real ground to dump the excess power down if there is a spike, so I wouldn't plug sensitive/valueable electronics in there anyway. If you want to get rid of the extension cords look into surface mount wiremold conduit and boxes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2020 03:43
|
|
