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Lord Koth posted:Given that at least some portion of them were unwilling noncombatants it absolutely fits any reasonable definition of war crime even before you get into usage. Hell, I can't think of any major civilian-related war crime done by either other lord within their own route or while fighting against them, whereas Edelgard has multiple - even ignoring "allied" forces. Dimitri killed children.
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Dec 19, 2020 08:32
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Hellioning posted:I don't think Claude and Dmitri intentionally didn't evacuate their capitals to use them as a shield? CF final map: Rhea did though and also she set the town on fire.
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Dec 19, 2020 08:40
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We should all just blame Rhea.
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Dec 19, 2020 08:48
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Cloacamazing! posted:CF final map: Rhea did though and also she set the town on fire. Which is why I did not mention them.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:02
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Tired Moritz posted:We should all just blame Rhea. 
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Dec 19, 2020 09:44
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Hellioning posted:I don't think Claude and Dmitri intentionally didn't evacuate their capitals to use them as a shield? Claude does in CF, and most of the times Edelgard's capital is attacked it's a surprise attack (both VW and SS) without opportunity to evac, so trying to blame her for not getting the civilians out of the way of the attack that, in SS is a fake surrender ("Under the guise of surrender, they secretly prepare for a surprise attack on the Imperial capital") and in VW is a general sneak attack ("Vastly outnumbered by Imperial forces, it becomes clear that a surprise attack, followed by a short and decisive battle, is the only path to victory. With this in mind, you stealthily approach Enbarr, the Imperial Capital") seems kinda iffy. In fact, I believe Edelgard is the only leader who, repeatedly and explicitly, does give civilians the opportunity to evacuate (at both Garreg and Fhirdiad in CF): "I'll wait just a moment longer. There are still many residents within the city. Unlike my attack at Garreg Mach five years ago, the church will not allow the inhabitants to evacuate." Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 10:28
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why do y'all like having this conversation who actually cares what the exact details are
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Dec 19, 2020 10:36
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Correctly identifying which decision in a video game leads to the Paragon outcome is proof of a superior political insight and a purer soul.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:41
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It is the only joy I get out of life.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:45
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Personally I just find it funny to try and map our modern legal definitions of war crimes onto the fantasy pseudo-medieval world of Fire Emblem. By god, almost every lord in this series is a child soldier! To the ICC with the lot of you!
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Dec 19, 2020 10:48
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Edelgard only really commits war crimes on the routes where she's a villain (i.e. 75% of the game), which is why CF has her in a stalemate after 5 years whereas in the other routes she just steamrolls over everyone else with hordes of demonic beasts bolstering her forces. Thanks, Byleth! The one thing that really sours CF is that Edelgard's version of history has some significant gaps especially regarding Nemesis that reflect very poorly on her especially if you've played VW or SS already, but that's less her fault and more Emperor Wilhelm's for passing down an incomplete story of the "truth" about Seiros. That and it's too short and you don't get the catharsis of murdering her uncle.
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Dec 19, 2020 11:09
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Well Manicured Man posted:Edelgard only really commits war crimes on the routes where she's a villain (i.e. 75% of the game), which is why CF has her in a stalemate after 5 years whereas in the other routes she just steamrolls over everyone else with hordes of demonic beasts bolstering her forces. Thanks, Byleth! Demonic Beasts are never actually used offensively against Faerghus or the Alliance.
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Dec 19, 2020 12:16
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Well Manicured Man posted:Edelgard only really commits war crimes on the routes where she's a villain (i.e. 75% of the game), which is why CF has her in a stalemate after 5 years whereas in the other routes she just steamrolls over everyone else with hordes of demonic beasts bolstering her forces. Thanks, Byleth! I feel like Edelgard is kind of a flawed revolutionary. She obviously has the ideals, and the will to see it through, but I feel like, at least based on what we see in-game, her plans for what to do after conquest are not totally thought through. I don't totally hold it against her since she came up with these plans when she was like, what, 17? And she was raised in one of the highest positions of nobility, so her being tone-deaf to what common people might need also seems fitting to her background. I guess I'm mostly thinking of the support with Ferdinand. He suggests universal education in order to help create the meritocracy that she says she wants, and her reaction is kind of like, "Oh yeah, I never thought of that". How in world is a meritocracy supposed to work if you have a historically privileged class and you don't institute some sort of universal education? Even then, there's a good chance most of the people who rise to the top in the new system will still come from the noble families. Edelgard actually reminds me of the people behind the American revolution in this way. At least some of them had some pretty lofty ideals, but they fell short on a lot of them since they were all coming from privileged positions themselves, and, being human, they were unwilling to really give up power and privilege that they had. They also created some pretty janky government institutions since they didn't have any models from other countries to work off of, and couldn't foresee some of the issues that would come up 200 years down the line. TLDR: If you play CF, Fodlan's going to end up with an electoral college in the new system of government.
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Dec 19, 2020 13:41
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I'd even argue that Edelgard leaking her knowledge would be plenty to start a civil unrest. Knock out the main foundation of Rhea's religion and the Church is already destabilized. It doesn't necessarily have to be her if it would be too risky with TWSITD involved, just get some high ranking official whose word won't be easily dismissed to do it and then she can launch an 'official investigation'.
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Dec 19, 2020 14:26
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Edelgard could have done whatever she wanted in her own empire and the church wouldn't have been able to do poo poo, since they got kicked out of the empire like ~150 years prior to the events of the game. The aristocracy, which probably wouldn't like what she wanted to do, would of course promptly depose her just like they did when her dad got too power-hungry. Given that the emperor had been reduced to a powerless figurehead in her time, the story really doesn't give any reason as to why that didn't still happen. I assume it's a combination of her getting at least Linhardt and Caspar's dads on her side, Hubert going around purging his dad and probably a few of the other more problematic nobles, and Slytherin machinations (which, of course, can explain everything).
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Dec 19, 2020 17:07
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literally nobody on planet earth actually cares about which lord is morally correct, they just pick the one they like most as a character and backfill from there.
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Dec 19, 2020 17:14
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Claude's bizarre adventure should have been in Almyra
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Dec 19, 2020 17:27
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Endorph posted:literally nobody on planet earth actually cares about which lord is morally correct, they just pick the one they like most as a character and backfill from there. Wrong; when I play video games, I always do my best to commit as many human rights violations as possible.
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Dec 19, 2020 17:46
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Deltasquid posted:Wrong; when I play video games, I always do my best to commit as many human rights violations as possible.
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Dec 19, 2020 17:47
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wait dorothea and hanneman have a paired ending what the gently caress?
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Dec 19, 2020 17:48
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The Dorothea/Hanneman A support is deeply cursed
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Dec 19, 2020 18:02
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Is it any more cursed than Flayn/literally anyone? I accidentally got Claude/Flayn on my last playthrough and it was very yikes.
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Dec 19, 2020 18:24
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Flayn has some great supports with Raphael and Felix at least, and her support with Ignatz is pretty fun too. Hanneman just has way too many romantic supports with students.
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Dec 19, 2020 18:37
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Raphael's supports with pretty much every character are great. Especially Marianne, Flayn, and Hilda. I love his support chain with Dimitri too where he sees Dimitri doing superman poo poo like lifting carriages off the ground and is like "How do I do that too?"
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Dec 19, 2020 18:46
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Oh yeah, Flayn has great supports. I just don’t want endings where she marries people that look twice her age. The Nowi problem (but slightly less egregious).
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Dec 19, 2020 18:48
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the dorothea/hubert a support is really funny because it's just her doing her "Minecraft bed unless" meme.
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Dec 19, 2020 20:11
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Endorph posted:literally nobody on planet earth actually cares about which lord is morally correct, they just pick the one they like most as a character and backfill from there. This is true but I don't think it's a surprise people talk about it, right? The game raises these questions itself, although in kind of a confusing (and apparently poorly translated) way. Azure Moon 100% raises the question of whether it's morally worse to start a war but fight it relatively honorably or to defend against a war of aggression but commit war crimes while doing it. It also kind of raises the old Mark Twain question of "which is worse, the brief spurt of violence that accompanies a war of revolution or the quieter injustice that accompanied the status quo ante?", although it proceeds to go "for more information on what Edelgard is so mad about, play Crimson Flower" so it doesn't really go anywhere. I think these conversations are actually interesting but people (not you, but the general "people"--- I've seen this mostly from Edelgard haters for whatever reason) tend to go into them from a goofy "defend my favorite lord" perspective that makes it turn dumb very quickly.
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Dec 19, 2020 20:34
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hopeandjoy posted:Oh yeah, Flayn has great supports. I just don’t want endings where she marries people that look twice her age. I think it works a lot better than Flayn than with any of the other dragons simply because Flayn is so terrible at pretending to be one of the teens.
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Dec 19, 2020 23:00
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Well Manicured Man posted:Raphael's supports with pretty much every character are great. Especially Marianne, Flayn, and Hilda. I love his support chain with Dimitri too where he sees Dimitri doing superman poo poo like lifting carriages off the ground and is like "How do I do that too?" I'm still bummed that his only A support with guys is just Ignatz. That Dimitri support could have gone places. The great part is also how he just flummoxes Ingrid by taking all her nagging into some weird bizarro self-improvement logic. Hanneman's romantic supports are definitely a bit off, especially since almost none of them actually allude to romance during the support itself, it's just a post-credits addition. At least Manuela shows signs of it during her supports with Dorothea or Ferdinand.
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Dec 19, 2020 23:04
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Rochallor posted:I think it works a lot better than Flayn than with any of the other dragons simply because Flayn is so terrible at pretending to be one of the teens. Flayn is the best character in this game entirely because of her 'how do you do fellow kids' shtick.
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Dec 20, 2020 00:31
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Endorph posted:literally nobody on planet earth actually cares about which lord is morally correct, they just pick the one they like most as a character and backfill from there. Edelgard is also my fave, but I’m actually a little bothered by how far the game goes to absolve her. I’d like her more if the morality was a bit more nuanced.
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Dec 20, 2020 04:00
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Edelgard is also my fave, but I’m actually a little bothered by how far the game goes to absolve her. I’d like her more if the morality was a bit more nuanced. The game already causes pages of arguing about Edelgard and you want more nuance? The thread wouldn't have survived a week.
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Dec 20, 2020 05:11
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Edelgard is also my fave, but I’m actually a little bothered by how far the game goes to absolve her. I’d like her more if the morality was a bit more nuanced.
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Dec 20, 2020 07:11
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Yeah I was going to say, there is not exactly a consensus about "absolution" (from either direction: how much needs to be absolved at all, or how sufficient the justifications are)
Redmark fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Dec 20, 2020 |
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Dec 20, 2020 07:12
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Cattail Prophet posted:I know for a fact that you only have the authority to prosecute bingo related crimes, this court is a sham! Mall Santa Metis posted:just wait do you question my authority now??? (sorry the punchline took longer than i thought to come through)
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Dec 23, 2020 22:29
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ACAB Congrats. 
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Dec 23, 2020 22:32
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Rochallor posted:I think it works a lot better than Flayn than with any of the other dragons simply because Flayn is so terrible at pretending to be one of the teens. I think her support with Ignatz was one of my very favorites because she’s clearly having a good time loving with him. I imagine spending too much time with Seteth would drive anyone mad with boredom Edit: Flayn literally only has one support with another woman if you’re not playing fByleth, that’s a real shame. I think her and Ingrid would get along, and I bet that you could make a very good (if sad) set for her and Lysithea too. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Dec 24, 2020 |
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Dec 24, 2020 13:47
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Dec 24, 2020 17:11
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Ingrid's status as the straightest women in Fodlan continues. I actually like the idea of a Flayn support with Bernadetta or Leonie.
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Dec 24, 2020 17:11
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Rimusutera posted:The actual list of war-crimes done in 3 Houses is fairly short. It might literally just be; Spoilers for Azure Moon. Dimitri and torture, although I suppose that the instance we see in game is preempted by Byleth killing the prisoner. As far as we know though he's been merrily just brutally murdering people for 5 years or so. Ugh I hate Dimitri and Byleth on that route.
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Dec 24, 2020 17:45
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