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Bruceski posted:I think the relation is more that (Stormlight/Elantris spoilers) in Elantris the problems come from the flow of power being blocked. People were set to receive it but it wasn't coming so they got side effects that were viewed as a disease. The Deadeyes are spren who are set to receive power from their oathbond, but that was blocked by the recreance and the result was also seen as an incurable affliction. Not a fundamental change to the system, people can still bond spren, but a mass-severing of the bonds that existed at the time. Similar effect, similar cause on a local scale, not the same cause on a global one. I don't buy that because according to WOB, before the recreance a radiant breaking their oaths wouldn't result in their spren turning into a deadeye, that's a change in how that works. so if the power is being blocked, what's blocking it? creating the bond clearly still works, but there was a process when breaking it and for some reason that's broken now, that process. like, if that was caused by the mass breaking of oaths, what thing in the world did that change? at least, AFAIK, I still need to re-read elantris
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Dec 22, 2020 19:13
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Hey, so I’ve blown through the first three stormlight archive books, and I’ve just started on the fourth, and it seems a lot more after-school-special-y than the prior books, with a kind of ham handed “here’s the basics of fantasy mental illness” taking the focus away from what made the other books fun. Does this continue through the rest of the book?
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Dec 22, 2020 19:21
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Spren Stuff There also is a difference between a bond breaking because the Radiant died and breaking because they actively want out of the bond. We know that a radiant dying just lets the spren bond someone else. I’m interested in the mechanics that make one of those fine and not the other. Another thing is that the Skybreakers didn’t break their bonds during the recreance so every high spren from back then should be around and should know what exactly happened. I wonder if Szeth being the only Skybreaker on the protagonist side and him not really communicating with his spren is partially to give a reason for him to not just ask exactly what happened. Though I guess it would be funny if the other orders pulled an ACAB and decided they weren’t going to tell them poo poo. Ethiser fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 19:30
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a foolish pianist posted:Hey, so I’ve blown through the first three stormlight archive books, and I’ve just started on the fourth, and it seems a lot more after-school-special-y than the prior books, with a kind of ham handed “here’s the basics of fantasy mental illness” taking the focus away from what made the other books fun. Does this continue through the rest of the book? all of the Stormlight Archives books so far have been at least in part about mental health, and there's no reason to think that'll ever change, no?
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Dec 22, 2020 19:35
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egg tats posted:reread elantris Senile seons
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Dec 22, 2020 19:59
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Ethiser posted:Spren Stuff The honorspren mentioned that the highspren went over to Odium. I wonder how that works with Szeth' spren. Perhaps it may have gone over to Odium, too, which might explain why it doesn't talk with Szeth very much. But it literally can't break their bond, and as long as he follows the Skybreaker oaths, he's sure to get the benefits of the Nahel Bond. So that's a pretty interesting situation that I haven't thought about before reading your post.
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Dec 22, 2020 20:00
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Ethiser posted:ACAB All 'Breakers Are Cremlings
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Dec 22, 2020 20:10
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egg tats posted:I don't buy that because according to WOB, before the recreance a radiant breaking their oaths wouldn't result in their spren turning into a deadeye, that's a change in how that works. Ah, I hadn't known about that WoB. I guess the distinction I was trying to make between Elantris and Stormlight is that while something fundamentally changed with the Recreance and imprisonment of Name-Can't-Remember, I'm not expecting a similar solution to Elantris where one action suddenly fixes it all again and everybody powers up. That could make for a great moment; all these spren suddenly re-powered and active and willing to bond people and continue the fight, but the books have so far had a theme of broken people learning how to function and healing slowly and a "simple" fix like that would undermine it. Learning the details of what happened and figuring out how to work around that seems more likely, with attempts to undo the damage being part of the process instead of a sudden fix.
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Dec 22, 2020 21:25
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a foolish pianist posted:Hey, so I’ve blown through the first three stormlight archive books, and I’ve just started on the fourth, and it seems a lot more after-school-special-y than the prior books, with a kind of ham handed “here’s the basics of fantasy mental illness” taking the focus away from what made the other books fun. Does this continue through the rest of the book? I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to so I'm assuming it's either Kaladin or Shallan's situation. Kaladin's depressive episodes feel less oppressive in book 4, at least to me. Shallan's situation does continue through the whole book but there is progress made.
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Dec 22, 2020 21:38
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Bruceski posted:Ah, I hadn't known about that WoB. Adolin managing to somewhat wake up his blade seems like it's part of the process of fixing the issue. It took him years, but maybe giving dead blades to people who give a poo poo about them now that they know they're spren could speed it up a little. They wouldn't even have to bond to the person who woke them up, but at least they'd be back and able to make their own choices. I doubt Odium's side could be convinced to try that, and it might give the Knights Radiant a leg up in reinforcements.
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Dec 22, 2020 22:52
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seaborgium posted:Adolin managing to somewhat wake up his blade seems like it's part of the process of fixing the issue. It took him years, but maybe giving dead blades to people who give a poo poo about them now that they know they're spren could speed it up a little. They wouldn't even have to bond to the person who woke them up, but at least they'd be back and able to make their own choices. I doubt Odium's side could be convinced to try that, and it might give the Knights Radiant a leg up in reinforcements. That's my expectation as well.
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Dec 22, 2020 23:00
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Bruceski posted:I think the relation is more that (Stormlight/Elantris spoilers) in Elantris the problems come from the flow of power being blocked. People were set to receive it but it wasn't coming so they got side effects that were viewed as a disease. The Deadeyes are spren who are set to receive power from their oathbond, but that was blocked by the recreance and the result was also seen as an incurable affliction. Not a fundamental change to the system, people can still bond spren, but a mass-severing of the bonds that existed at the time. Similar effect, similar cause on a local scale, not the same cause on a global one. It has to be more then a broken oath, the deadeyes were a surprise and I'm sure individual radiants would of broken their oaths at some point in the previous thousands of years. Something fundamentally changed that time
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Dec 23, 2020 04:53
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socialsecurity posted:It has to be more then a broken oath, the deadeyes were a surprise and I'm sure individual radiants would of broken their oaths at some point in the previous thousands of years. Something fundamentally changed that time this. there's a reason the analogy to Elantris doesn't quite work and it's because we truly have no idea why BAM was so integral to the nature of the nahel bond itself, and clearly neither did the spren or knights radiant of the time. this leaves us mostly theorizing about why she's special, whether it's that even before being Unmade she was already somehow important to Roshar, or if it's somehow her own manipulation of Connection to supply voidlight and forms of power that had the unintended side effect that gave her that special status
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Dec 23, 2020 05:01
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comedy option: It has nothing to do with BAM, the Nahel bond is in some way linked to the cities/terrain just like Elantris. They will have to physically repair the Shattered Plains.
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Dec 23, 2020 06:13
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socialsecurity posted:It has to be more then a broken oath, the deadeyes were a surprise and I'm sure individual radiants would of broken their oaths at some point in the previous thousands of years. Something fundamentally changed that time Tanavast died, Honor could no longer regulate the bonds of spren and men. In the past if some human broke their oaths Honor could just intervene and cleanly break the nahel bond, as bonds are his thing. Or alternatively pass the spren bond to a completely different person, like how Ishar used his powers of an "unchained" bondsmith (unchecked by Honor) to almost steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather. The connection to Elantris is that both are cases of a semi-automated magic system developing bugs because the God who would have otherwise hotfixed things is dead. BAM's capture may have been the immediate cause of the deadeyes phenomina (just like the earthquake broke Elantris' magic), but were Honor not dead this seems like the kind of magical problem that could have been easily patched. The impending death of Honor was the root cause of everything in the Recreance. Up until that moment there was a stalemate between the Radiants and the Singers empowered by BAM. With Honor's impending demise though, the balance of power shifted. Without Honor's checks on the Radiant's powers, there was a renewed risk that the Radiants might nuke the planet like they did Ashyn. If the Radiants disarmed unilaterally though, BAM and singers would easily win. Hence the dual imprisonment of BAM and the Radiants renouncing their oaths. Net result is a lot of tragedy for singers and spren, but the planet is safe for a couple more millennia.
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Dec 23, 2020 07:14
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Do we know that the radiants actually broke their oaths en masse? The simplest explanation seems like imprisoning BAM took away the singer forms of power (and trapped most of them in slaveform), but also deadeyed all the nahel bonded spren simultaneously.
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Dec 23, 2020 07:26
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Infinite Karma posted:Do we know that the radiants actually broke their oaths en masse? The simplest explanation seems like imprisoning BAM took away the singer forms of power (and trapped most of them in slaveform), but also deadeyed all the nahel bonded spren simultaneously. They definitely broke their oaths - we have it stated a few times, as well as the dalinar vision and the fact that the skybreakers decided not to
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Dec 23, 2020 07:51
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Bruceski posted:I think the relation is more that (Stormlight/Elantris spoilers) in Elantris the problems come from the flow of power being blocked. People were set to receive it but it wasn't coming so they got side effects that were viewed as a disease. The Deadeyes are spren who are set to receive power from their oathbond, but that was blocked by the recreance and the result was also seen as an incurable affliction. Not a fundamental change to the system, people can still bond spren, but a mass-severing of the bonds that existed at the time. Similar effect, similar cause on a local scale, not the same cause on a global one. Was it blocked by the recreance though? That might just be when it was first observed. I understood the change to the rules might have been related to the false desolation and the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which AFAIK occured before the recreance, and contributed to the recreance happening.
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Dec 23, 2020 07:52
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Tunicate posted:They definitely broke their oaths - we have it stated a few times, as well as the dalinar vision and the fact that the skybreakers decided not to The reveal that the spren were mutually involved in the oath breaking calls into question what that actually means though. Like the oaths are shown to be highly up to interpretation and the spren thinking that the radiants were doing the right thing makes it seem unlikely that they broke the oaths the same way Kaladin has almost broken his oath before.
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Dec 23, 2020 12:20
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While its similar to Elantris the reason the breaking/fixing worked is Dominion's power is directly tied to geography and location, hence the change the AonDor with the change in the landscape. People are saying that its similar with the death of Honor there was no guiding intelligence to the power to repair the system, not that Honor is tied to geography like Dominion. Binding BAM after Honors death is much like breaking the continents geography after Dominions, and as consequence breaking bonds now works differently, just as the Aon's on Sel now work differently.
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Dec 23, 2020 17:47
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M_Gargantua posted:While its similar to Elantris the reason the breaking/fixing worked is Dominion's power is directly tied to geography and location, hence the change the AonDor with the change in the landscape. People are saying that its similar with the death of Honor there was no guiding intelligence to the power to repair the system, not that Honor is tied to geography like Dominion. Binding BAM after Honors death is much like breaking the continents geography after Dominions, and as consequence breaking bonds now works differently, just as the Aon's on Sel now work differently. I like this explanation a lot better but it only works if BAM actually was inherent to the whole system of bonding (say, by being some other important demigod spren pre-unmaking) or somehow accidentally made herself that through Connection manipulation. Based on the reference in ROW about how her granting forms was a Really Bad Idea (something about her playing at being a god but being too small, iirc), I do wonder if it wasn't her magics that made her Connected to all the higher spren or something, resulting in the severing of that connection causing new side-effects. It could be that the whole "Honor wasn't around to regulate his system" also applies to whatever BAM did to hand out power in the False Desolation that then caused all these unintended consequences
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Dec 23, 2020 17:58
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M_Gargantua posted:While its similar to Elantris the reason the breaking/fixing worked is Dominion's power is directly tied to geography and location, hence the change the AonDor with the change in the landscape. People are saying that its similar with the death of Honor there was no guiding intelligence to the power to repair the system, not that Honor is tied to geography like Dominion. Binding BAM after Honors death is much like breaking the continents geography after Dominions, and as consequence breaking bonds now works differently, just as the Aon's on Sel now work differently. That makes sense. And the remedy of freeing BAM seems obvious, Kalak even outright states it. I wouldn't be surprised to see her freed in SA5. Just a small thing, but as far as I know, the holder of Devotion was Aona, so AonDor is Devotion's magic, not Dominion's.
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Dec 23, 2020 18:34
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Torrannor posted:Just a small thing, but as far as I know, the holder of Devotion was Aona, so AonDor is Devotion's magic, not Dominion's. wouldn't it technically be both's, since you use Aons to do magic drawn from the Dor, and it's just the big combined mess of both of their shards lingering in the Cognitive Realm? eke out fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 23, 2020 |
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Dec 23, 2020 18:39
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eke out posted:I like this explanation a lot better but it only works if BAM actually was inherent to the whole system of bonding (say, by being some other important demigod spren pre-unmaking) or somehow accidentally made herself that through Connection manipulation. ROW: I have a pet theory that whatever is the cause of Deadeyes is related to the Herald's instability and the way they'll momentarily flash back to being lucid for a few moments in the presence of heavy investiture. On a related note, has anyone figured out what exactly heralds are? They seem to be more like human-form spren than actual humans. Is there any other explanation for their immortality yet?
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Dec 23, 2020 19:04
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Unponderable posted:ROW: I have a pet theory that whatever is the cause of Deadeyes is related to the Herald's instability and the way they'll momentarily flash back to being lucid for a few moments in the presence of heavy investiture. They are Cognitive Shadows like the Returned. Honor juiced some humans up with his power which made it so that when they die their spirits hang around. It is the same thing as the Fused.
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Dec 23, 2020 19:11
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Ethiser posted:They are Cognitive Shadows like the Returned. Honor juiced some humans up with his power which made it so that when they die their spirits hang around. It is the same thing as the Fused. But the Returned can die, no? Though maybe Honor's rules are a bit different. edit: discounting the anti-light dagger thing Unponderable fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Dec 23, 2020 |
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Dec 23, 2020 19:18
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Unponderable posted:But the Returned can die, no? Though maybe Honor's rules are a bit different. The details are different, but that is the broad term for what they are. It is what Kelsier became and what the spooky ghosts in the Forest of Hell were. The part where they get new bodies every time they come back is a Herald specific thing.
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Dec 23, 2020 19:20
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Ethiser posted:They are Cognitive Shadows like the Returned. Honor juiced some humans up with his power which made it so that when they die their spirits hang around. It is the same thing as the Fused. I find this quote from RoW quite relevant: Syl posted:A Bondsmith Connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. As far as I understand it, the Heralds had two sources of power. There were the Honorblades, which gave them access to surges and a direct conduit to Honor through which they got basically limitless supply of Stormlight. And there was whatever a Bondsmith (probably Ishar) did to them, making them immortal and connecting them to Braize to be able to stop the Fused from returning.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:01
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Unponderable posted:But the Returned can die, no? Though maybe Honor's rules are a bit different. edit: discounting the anti-light dagger thing They can 'die' but return to braize and are 'reborn', unless their soul is trapped which severed their Connection and they wither away into nothing The Elantris extra line was important because that magic system was heavily based on Connection to the land (because their magic is coming from the cognitive realm) and hence had a huge impact on the magic system itself. A part of the world being damaged on Roshar is very unlikely to be the cause of the deadeyes in my opinion.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:40
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^ there is a WOB that contradicts Syl. I'll go find it, but it basically explains that Odium is locked onto Braize by Honor's shard. More, an entity would have to control the majority of Honor's shard to release Odium.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:41
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I'd honestly like for one of the later books to have a Herald flashback. They were all there when the humans messed up their previous planet and all went through the process of coming to Roshar, getting the honorblades, getting into a war with the Singers and becoming Heralds. There is tons of good story stuff to wring out of all that.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:10
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Ethiser posted:I'd honestly like for one of the later books to have a Herald flashback. They were all there when the humans messed up their previous planet and all went through the process of coming to Roshar, getting the honorblades, getting into a war with the Singers and becoming Heralds. There is tons of good story stuff to wring out of all that. Herald POVs from Ash and Taln in flashback sequences are slated for the back five, which are Lift, Renarin, Ash, Taln and Jasnah.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:41
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That’s awesome. The more I sit on Rhythm the more I think I need to re read mistborn saga 1 and the supplements.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:44
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Sixth of the Dusk 2 reading The shardbearer space marine who is speaking with a funny rhythm - is that a Singer? I for one wouldn't at all mind seeing Roshar returned to the Singers long term.
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Dec 24, 2020 02:07
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doublepost
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Dec 24, 2020 02:07
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Potato Salad posted:Sixth of the Dusk 2 reading Humans and Singers will live together in peace on Roshar
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Dec 24, 2020 02:14
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RC Cola posted:Humans and Singers will live together in peace on Roshar Odium evolving from angry bringer of apocalypse and extinction of all life to a Machiavellian genius whose hateful impulses must be channeled towards the least damaging/most deserving targets on other planets will be fascinating. The Odium shard sucks, but we gotta make the best of things.
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Dec 24, 2020 02:45
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Potato Salad posted:^ there is a WOB that contradicts Syl. I'll go find it, but it basically explains that Odium is locked onto Braize by Honor's shard. More, an entity would have to control the majority of Honor's shard to release Odium. In case you were replying to my quote, then I think there's no contradiction? Honor imprisoned Odium on Braize, but the Heralds imprisoned the Fused on Braize. These are different things.
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Dec 24, 2020 08:16
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Two interesting WoBs that were posted recently on Arcanum. Spoilers for both Mistborn Well of Ascension and RoW:quote:mender quote:[suggestion]
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Dec 24, 2020 14:38
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Is there a resource for the linguistics mentioned there? I tried looking on Coppermind, but either it's not there or I couldn't think of how to properly search for it.
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Dec 24, 2020 15:28
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