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Oh, I bet you did that because of the triple-shielded robot enemy. That's cool though. I expect there's pretty steep diminishing returns on adding more shields, but I'd like to see a witch with like 12 of them 
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Dec 24, 2020 01:09
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I found Hiisi Santa. https://i.imgur.com/Uuk0IB2.mp4 Kinda fitting he'd be around in the coal mines.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:16
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Now I'm wondering what the maximum amount of shield defenses you can have is. There's the Shield perk of course, plus the Projectile Repulsion Field and the one that deletes projectiles that hit a small arc behind you. Then there's the passive shield on wands and the passive forward-arc shield. And the projectile slowing field perk. Am I missing anything else? I tend to not take any of the repulsion field type perks since they end up affecting your own projectiles as well in various ways. Although the one that's a partial cone in front of you actually does a pretty good job at deterring bullets. Amusingly, it also allows you to push around circle and mist spells. Doubly funny if you actually find something like circle of vigor and try to use it to heal, only to see it immediately get ejected two screens away from you. I'm sure you could do something funny with this with a damage field on a mist/circle and homing/increase lifetime. If it runs out of targets and stops you can just keep shoving it around until it finds someone new to attach to and murder. Also stack them and push the stack around.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:33
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Projectile repulsion field is pretty high on the list of perks I want. It adds a ton of survivability and has the useful property of making black holes vastly more effective at digging. That in turn makes navigating zones easier, especially if you want to do stuff like backtrack or cut through large amounts of extremely dense rock before you're able to rig some kind of infinite digging wand. I think my top tier perks would be something like: - Tinker Anywhere - Trick Blood Money - Explosion Immunity - Projectile Repulsion Field - Shield I'm honestly not sure what order I'd put the first three in.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:48
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I still have never seen the Trick Blood Money perk in probably 50 or 60 hours of gameplay since it was added.
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Dec 24, 2020 04:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:I still have never seen the Trick Blood Money perk in probably 50 or 60 hours of gameplay since it was added. It is legit an amazing perk. If you can generate trick kills reliably (generally by electricity or from the harder-to-use spells like the exploding proximity crystal), it greatly extends your lifespan. It also combos beautifully with the greed perks, since you get not just more money but also more health from your trick kills.
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Dec 24, 2020 04:18
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Speaking of trick kills, thrown tablets can kill nearly every enemy and they count as trick kills. Grabbing the one between mines and the lava lake can net you a decent amount of extra cash in the early game Flying toasters, terminators etc can be killed with one bonk to the head. An option if you're stuck with weak wands. If you get the invisibility perk, throwing a tablet does not break your invisibility so go wild.
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Dec 24, 2020 06:35
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Infinite spells and most of the immunities are my main instagrabs
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Dec 24, 2020 06:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It is legit an amazing perk. If you can generate trick kills reliably (generally by electricity or from the harder-to-use spells like the exploding proximity crystal), it greatly extends your lifespan. It also combos beautifully with the greed perks, since you get not just more money but also more health from your trick kills. There are a few ways to make the crystal explode immediately via triggers, like the Nolla modifier on Unstable Crystal, or using a multicast spell that destroys the crystal. Like Sparkbolt/Trigger:(triplecast+Explosive Projectile modifier + Digging Bolt + dormant crystal + dormant crystal) would do it, last time I tried. Homing crystals are still hilarious though.
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Dec 24, 2020 07:45
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Decided to buy this game a few days ago. Fun, but frustrating! I haven't beaten it yet, but I've made it to The Temple of Art a couple times and Steam tells me fewer than 10% of players have done that so I guess I'm doing alright. The frustrating thing is being at the mercy of RNG, but I knew what I was getting going in. I was making some really good progress earlier today on a run where I tried Invisibility for the first time, and had a wand for most of the run with Firebomb x 4, Critical Plus x 2, Damage Plus, Quadruple Scatter Shot, and Firecrackers. Didn't have the most damage but chewed through floors and usually knocked enemies around enough to disrupt them. I met my end in the Vault when some oil from the ceiling dripped on me and exposed me to a heavy-hitter. I think my best run ever I found a wand that always cast Personal Fireball Thrower and I had Explosive Immunity. That one was intense as every enemy turned into a never-ending fireball launcher that would usually kill itself and its friends in the blast radius.
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Dec 24, 2020 08:30
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Has anyone here touched modding or editing the game files? What I'd quite like to do is remove a bunch of perks, as it's a bit annoying getting to a mountain and seeing Worm Attractor, Worm Detractor, More Blood and then rerolling it into Teleportitis, No Wand Tinkering and Peace with Gods. I was kinda hoping they were going to be stored in a plaintext XML file, but at a glance it looks like it'll need something more complex.
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Dec 24, 2020 12:15
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Razakai posted:Has anyone here touched modding or editing the game files? What I'd quite like to do is remove a bunch of perks, as it's a bit annoying getting to a mountain and seeing Worm Attractor, Worm Detractor, More Blood and then rerolling it into Teleportitis, No Wand Tinkering and Peace with Gods. I was kinda hoping they were going to be stored in a plaintext XML file, but at a glance it looks like it'll need something more complex. If you install Goki's Things mod, you can set it to 'vanilla only' in its config menu (click the icon on the top right in-game). Then it wouldn't actually do anything, but then use its perk menu to set any perks you want as disabled (or set them so you spawn with them every run). Personally I'm liking always having no-shuffle. You can even use it to control perks from other mods and/or spells if you wanted. Captainicus fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Dec 24, 2020 |
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Dec 24, 2020 13:24
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Captainicus posted:If you install Goki's Things mod, you can set it to 'vanilla only' in its config menu (click the icon on the top right in-game). Then it wouldn't actually do anything, but then use its perk menu to set any perks you want as disabled (or set them so you spawn with them every run). Personally I'm liking always having no-shuffle. You can even use it to control perks from other mods and/or spells if you wanted. Yeah I have all the useless bullshit perks disabled. Should be pointed out that it requires an extra step of enabling the option to use goki's menu to manage perks/spells/etc from vanilla and other mods.
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Dec 24, 2020 13:43
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silentsnack posted:Yeah I have all the useless bullshit perks disabled. Should be pointed out that it requires an extra step of enabling the option to use goki's menu to manage perks/spells/etc from vanilla and other mods. I tried that mod, but missed the option to manage vanilla mods - thanks! Exactly what I'm after.
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Dec 24, 2020 14:29
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silentsnack posted:Yeah I have all the useless bullshit perks disabled. Should be pointed out that it requires an extra step of enabling the option to use goki's menu to manage perks/spells/etc from vanilla and other mods. Which perks would you currently consider to be useless bullshit? I think I can guess some, but it'd be good to know if there are some perks people consider useless that could be made less so.
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Dec 24, 2020 16:52
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Hempuli posted:Which perks would you currently consider to be useless bullshit? I think I can guess some, but it'd be good to know if there are some perks people consider useless that could be made less so. Freeze field pretty much murders you in a fight when you or your enemies bleed anything but oil. It can make lava harmless and be a boon for exploring hell, but it doesn't really justify getting stuck mid combat because a pixel of your blood froze mid-air. Maybe it it made you immune to freezing liquid? Or maybe you exhale freezing liquid/gas so it could be used offensively as well?
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Dec 24, 2020 17:07
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nimby posted:Freeze field pretty much murders you in a fight when you or your enemies bleed anything but oil. It can make lava harmless and be a boon for exploring hell, but it doesn't really justify getting stuck mid combat because a pixel of your blood froze mid-air. There needs to be pros and cons to using each spell. freeze is super powerful so having freezing liquids in the air due to using it seems like an OK trade. Exploding gold seems like a perk that hasn't really been used by anyone that I have watched on streams/youtube or on forums. I wonder if there could be a way to get rid of gold forever by using exploding gold on longer runs. Sometime you take gold forever, but on long runs it destroys framerate. If it interacted with exploding gold somehow to end the gold forever it could be a way to save a longer run.
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Dec 24, 2020 17:16
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freeze field teleportitis homonculus and angry ghost seem really bad to me. i was also super disappointed that vampirism + oil blood or slime blood didnt let me recover hp by drinking oil or slime but thats besides the point
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Dec 24, 2020 17:19
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jsoh posted:freeze field teleportitis homonculus and angry ghost seem really bad to me. i was also super disappointed that vampirism + oil blood or slime blood didnt let me recover hp by drinking oil or slime but thats besides the point Those vampirism combos used to work before 1.0.
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Dec 24, 2020 17:24
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Hamelekim posted:There needs to be pros and cons to using each spell. freeze is super powerful so having freezing liquids in the air due to using it seems like an OK trade. Say hello to the new gold detonation spell.
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Dec 24, 2020 17:28
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What if exploding gold made it explode when an enemy touched it, like with unstable crystals?
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Dec 24, 2020 18:14
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Freeze Field has seemed to be more in an odd space of "it's really useful but has very hefty downsides" rather than outright uselessness. Also, regarding Homunculus - is it still useless even after the homunculi were made unable to pick up wands & the berserking behaviours of minions were changed? Do they still keep killing the player, or are they just not powerful enough? As for Exploding Gold, yeah, I can definitely see the issue; I buffed the explosion a lot but I guess the effect just plain isn't super useful. The ideas of combining it with Gold Is Forever for long runs and/or making it react to enemies are great, thanks! Teleportitis is mostly a huge liability but imo has its place in some nonstandard setups. I feel that it's problem is mostly that it's very dangerous unless you're very specifically doing a speedrun. Low/High Gravity feel to me like the least useful perks; I like what they do on a conceptual level but they feel more like something that should be a biome modifier rather than a perk, because the player seldom has any wishes to activate effects like that just for fun, at the cost of precious perk slots. As for Angry Ghost, I assume the biggest trouble with it is that it can too easily hurt the player by copying e.g. explosive spells?
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Dec 24, 2020 19:53
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There's a few perks that aren't bad, but are just kinda boring and niche compared to cooler ones, like the 3 different ones that interact with worms.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:00
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Hempuli posted:Which perks would you currently consider to be useless bullshit? I think I can guess some, but it'd be good to know if there are some perks people consider useless that could be made less so. Part of it is that the perks aren't universally intolerably horrible, but this is a permadeath roguelite with a limited number of permanent upgrades, so having mediocre/irrelevant perks in the pool means I'm more likely to roll only duds and get forced to play danmaku-Frogger, which is usually just another form of game-over since (unless I'm doing some gimmick/challenge) dodging is only entertaining until it isn't. Obviously it's subjective as to what is good or useless or awful and each player has their own style, and the preferences can also change depending on what you've found in a particular run. So I don't have a static Tier Ranking List but for the set of perks I would pretty much never choose even as filler, regardless of whether I'm focused/tired/coffee'd/etc: Bouncy Projectiles, Boomerang, more/less Gravity, more/fewer Worms, Stainless Armor, Exploding Corpses, Freeze. Basically the perks that don't add to long-term firepower or mobility or survival or especially versatile utility. ...tried Homunculus after some of the changes and it isn't as bad as it had been previously, but still firmly in the "meh, pass" category. Nova Drift has a pretty good system of having a few upgrades that (in addition to their other effects) remove other upgrades from the pool for the rest of that particular run.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:05
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Hempuli posted:Freeze Field has seemed to be more in an odd space of "it's really useful but has very hefty downsides" rather than outright uselessness. Yeah, I think it's kind of good to have some perks that fit into a niche, like speed runs, or long runs. You wouldn't normally take them unless for a specific purpose, but they fit that purpose really well, or make something impossible to even do without it. Making Homunculus collect gold out to a particular range would be pretty cool and useful. Love the updates btw. I've got over a 1200 hours in the game and it keeps getting better. Definitely my game of 2020.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:08
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Low Gravity, Faster Levitation, and Stronger Levitation all occupy the same space in my mind, and the latter two are way easier to work with. High Gravity I have no idea what its use case is. Flight is so critical to just about everything you do, and it's super unclear to me that increasing gravity on your enemies has much value. Reviewing the perk list, here's ones I feel ambivalent about: - Exploding Gold: at minimum needs to clarify that the explosions cannot harm the player - Fast Swimming: swimming just doesn't come up that often - Exploding Corpses: I don't really see the tactical utility but I can imagine all kinds of ways this could make things go badly for me - Stronger Hearts: actually just wanted to note that last I checked, this doesn't affect the +10HP you get from the Holy Mountain hearts, which is a bummer. Otherwise this perk is fine. - Worm Attractor/Detractor: worms just aren't common enough that I feel like these have significant impact - Bombs Materialized: bomb-like spells just aren't useful enough for it to be worth sacrificing inventory space - Freeze Field: the odds of getting yourself killed in any routine fight are too high. I'm not sure how to fix it without just removing the chance of getting hung up on pixels (e.g. having it make powders instead of solids), which would probably make it a very high-quality perk - Revenge Explosion: as usual, perks that cause stuff to explode "at random" are very hazardous. Indeed I'm generally not a fan of any ability that causes attacks without me explicitly activating/controlling them. - Lukki Mutation: I have limited experience with it but tend to find that I run out of terrain at inopportune times. - Angry Ghost, Homunculus: see earlier comments re: uncontrolled attacks - Bouncing Spells: being unable to rely on firebolts/missiles/etc. to explode when they hit the ground is really bad. There doesn't seem to be much upside to this perk either. The "bouncing spells" projectile modifier adds 10 bounces for 0 mana and is rarely useful even if wand spell slots aren't at a premium. - Always Cast: having no control over what the always-cast spell is makes this a huge gamble, as it could easily ruin your wand. I'm not sure I would take it unless I had an equally-good backup wand that I could switch over to if the wand got e.g. Unstable Crystal as its always-cast (causing the wand to blow up in my face every time it fires). - High Mana, Low Capacity: usually mana capacity is not the limiting factor on wands I make, but capacity certainly can be. - Extra Item in Holy Mountain: just doesn't seem particularly valuable; shops already have a pretty good selection. Maybe if it added a discount to prices too? 
TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Dec 24, 2020 |
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Dec 24, 2020 21:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Low Gravity, Faster Levitation, and Stronger Levitation all occupy the same space in my mind, and the latter two are way easier to work with. High Gravity I have no idea what its use case is. Flight is so critical to just about everything you do, and it's super unclear to me that increasing gravity on your enemies has much value. If you are going to multiple side worlds having more selection can be useful to get more spells/wands you want. At some point you have all the core perks for a long run, and it's nice to have perks that provide more spell/wand selection, or buffing you wand through mana/spell slot increases.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:20
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Hamelekim posted:If you are going to multiple side worlds having more selection can be useful to get more spells/wands you want. At some point you have all the core perks for a long run, and it's nice to have perks that provide more spell/wand selection, or buffing you wand through mana/spell slot increases. While this is true, it amounts to an average of 1 extra spell available per mountain, assuming 50% chance that any given mountain sells spells instead of wands. I assume that by the time you're doing parallel worlds or NG+ you're not likely to be interested in wand shops. Anyway, a perk that specifically targets people doing parallel worlds / NG+ is pretty drat niche. I thought about mentioning that Fast Swimmer is nice for diving to the bottom of the Lake, but for similar reasons didn't bother.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:30
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Yeah, the problem isn't so much that certain perks are bad, it's just that you only get one and the game still seems to be heavily balanced around you at least getting some decent perks that increase survivability. A lot of attacks or damage types are nearly instant death without the right immunity.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:34
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For late game multiworld runs I unironically look for the fast swim and breathless perks because a single shot from my weapon probably generates a half screen or more of blood and it floods areas. Not that drowning damage does anything appreciable at that point, but the screen effect and noise are annoying.
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Dec 24, 2020 23:52
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Bouncing Spells is especially bad because of what someone mentioned about explosive projectiles not blowing up on impact, like the energy ball. One easy fix - make Bouncing Spells do a mini-spell-impact-effect on each bounce - it would become a very good perk.
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Dec 24, 2020 23:53
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I mostly agree with Abstraction's post of perks, the Worm perks feel like filler to the point of just being there for flavor and screwing around. Fast swimming is nice, if you plan to explore the lake or use wands that focus on flooding a level, which quickly tapers off into uselessness if you don't follow it with something like electricity or something to handle enemies that don't breathe, i.e. robots. Breathless is a bit more useful as it means you can't suffocate if something weird happens that encases you, but that can be an edge case depending on circumstances. Bombs materialized isn't something I'd take over another potion flask. I avoid Lukki mutation because I'd rather have the utility of normal levitation instead of a restrictive infinite levitation, it also renders wands that are very destructive and destroy the level into something that can become very dangerous if it limits your ability to dodge. I haven't gotten the minion perks since the berserkium rework, but before it I avoided them on the off-chance I wanted to use some or got some on me. But I would still avoid angry ghost due to what Hempuli mentioned, I just don't want to take the risk that it copies something very dangerous to myself. I never take Bouncing Spells, again because it looks like a niche gimmick where your wands are better if you can fill the screen with projectiles, which some enemies are specifically designed to negate making the perk worthless as far I as I see. Revenge explosion is like the electricity perk in my eyes, useful if you're careful, but can easily catch you out and cause something that ends the run. I don't take Always Cast either, for the same reasons as Abstraction.
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Dec 25, 2020 03:12
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I’ve taken Always Cast five or six times so far, and every time it’s been some kind of modifier (got damage plus a couple times, increase mana once, I got pingpong path or something that kinda ruined the wand once), never yet any kind of attack spell. I don’t know if that’s just dumb luck or if the RNG for that perk is weighted that way.
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Dec 25, 2020 05:32
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Doesn’t it assign a spell already on the wand? You could drop all your spells but one to force the assignment couldn’t you?
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Dec 25, 2020 06:22
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There's a perk in Goki's that does exactly that, but the vanilla always cast is just a random spell iirc.
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Dec 25, 2020 06:32
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The way Always Cast works is that there's a fairly high chance that it'll give you a spell from a curated list (which includes e.g. Acid Trail & Damage+), and if that doesn't happen, it rolls the dice again and depending on your luck gives you a modifier spell, a static projectile, or a projectile (in increasing order of rarity). There might be a fourth category between modifiers and static projectiles, I recently tweaked it to remove multicast spells from the logic because they had some glitchy interactions, but I don't have the source at hand atm.
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Dec 25, 2020 08:46
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned more/less hatred, which I get should probably be a biome modifier because I'm not sure why else you would want it. Freeze field is very good, but better on a wand than as a perk just because you can remove it. The single pixel issue seems like more of a general issue with the collision detection than it does with that particular perk, just that it's more evident with the perk active. No idea how your collision detection works but how much would it murder performance to check if a colliding pixel has any immediate orthogonal neighbors and remove it if it doesn't? Edit: the wand modifier perk that gives you less slots in exchange for more mana is pretty lame. I would either make the downside less bad or replace it with the "improve wands" event from twitch integration. Maybe do both because that would be a solid perk. KillHour fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 09:07
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Yeah I must second the sentiment in the thread, the bad perks are bad because they dilute the pool, I started playing Noita about two weeks before the 1.0 release and along with the 'no more guaranteed water' the diluted perk pool bumped up the difficulty significantly for my noob self. I'd say that if you're planning a long run the first 2-3 holy mountains not having any of the 'useful perks' can be really crippling, I know it's cheesy but I sometimes just quick dive to the first holy mountain and basically figure out my next steps based on the available perks, a useless selection will prompt a more suicidal run; of course when you're a bit better at the game you have ways to get back into the holy mountain and you can come back later to reroll the perks, but given the fact that rerolls are both expensive and limited you'd often want to avoid using them early on until you hopefully get the chance to pick up extra perk and perk lottery, so yeah, the diluted pool has a large effect on difficulty and run success, it can be mitigated with knowledge and sequence breaking but even then it seems to generally just make some runs a little lackluster. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 09:15
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Would be cool if there were NG+ or parallel world only perks that skewed more situational or fun but unbalanced. At that point, you might have more use for a really weird perk without it being annoying. You could have both quirky stuff like gravity modifiers or explosive gold as well as really broken stuff like lava immunity, matter eater field or maybe even a perk that shuffles material interactions. A flip gravity perk would be cool, although it might cause problems if you go outside...
KillHour fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 09:22
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KillHour posted:I'm surprised nobody mentioned more/less hatred, which I get should probably be a biome modifier because I'm not sure why else you would want it. Oh yeah more/less hatred is another fringe one that only really shines when you stack them, 4 loves will make everything neutral to you and make the Hiisi healers heal you automatically. I feel like I need to say I feel like I understand part of the intent underlying the "bad" perks, you don't want every run to be Explosion Immunity, Melee Immunity, Trick Blood Money, etc. But it definitely makes the learning curve harsher for new players, especially considering some perks don't tell you everything they do and either imply to just omit it outright, looking at you Lukki. Considering the game gives a set loadout for the first run, spark bolt, bomb wand, water flask. Maybe the same could be done for perks? Say the first 5 runs that make it inside a mountain have a higher chance of empirically "good" perks in the first mountain or two? I also just remembered that I have taken lowered gravity in a run I wanted to extend but didn't find stronger levitation, but I really struggle to see any reason for higher gravity. Possibly, after having stacked stronger levitation, but that would still seriously change most wand behavior. Ardryn fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 09:24
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