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Lurdiak posted:Your posts are astoundingly bad. Can you justify your take instead of doing whatever this is?
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Dec 29, 2020 00:23
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Fallom posted:Can you justify your take instead of doing whatever this is? I mean sure. A huge amount of the casual humor in the strip is about people being tacky, classless or not world wise and thus deserving of contempt. Society has forever associated these traits, and the very concept of class, with poverty. Even Roast Beef, who is dirt poor and carries a ton of baggage, is allowed to judge other trashy people because while he might be poor, he has the good sense not to bother others with his poorness and not be tacky about it. A lot of what Ray doesn't like about some of his other rich acquaintances, particularly bensington butters, is all about this concept of respectability and projecting classiness. And in turn Beef, Cornelius and sometimes even Teodor rag on Ray for being a tacky, Trump-like cash-flasher with no sense of refinement. These dynamics also reflect themselves in the meticulously described fake subcultures he creates for the strip as well, such as Nice Pete's intensely complex country decorum, or the unspoken rules of the garage sale world. There are rules, and there are spaces one is meant to occupy, and stepping outside of them is to invite ridicule. This is Onstad conveying that anyone can be tacky and ridiculous within certain contexts, but as I said, societally these traits are overwhelming associated with the poor. A loud drunken vagrant will always be considered tackier and more undesirable than a golden helicopter by the public at large. This isn't me trying to say Onstad is bad or secretly reactionary, it's just his work reflecting the culture he lives in, which is why I said this isn't unique to conservatives. Hierarchical thinking that reinforces class disparity can be found in a lot of modern comedy from all over the political spectrum. I know there's some people who have a kneejerk opposition to trying to examine Achewood like it's literature in this thread, but I wasn't trying to be "vapid" or make myself seem smart when I said that, it's just something I noticed about the comic that I like.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:49
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Relevant.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:52
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I like that take. It is a good take
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Dec 29, 2020 01:14
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 I think you've got a point Safety Dance fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 01:35
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That’s a way more interesting observation than what I thought was coming
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Dec 29, 2020 02:29
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Lurdiak posted:I mean sure. A huge amount of the casual humor in the strip is about people being tacky, classless or not world wise and thus deserving of contempt. Society has forever associated these traits, and the very concept of class, with poverty. Even Roast Beef, who is dirt poor and carries a ton of baggage, is allowed to judge other trashy people because while he might be poor, he has the good sense not to bother others with his poorness and not be tacky about it. A lot of what Ray doesn't like about some of his other rich acquaintances, particularly bensington butters, is all about this concept of respectability and projecting classiness. And in turn Beef, Cornelius and sometimes even Teodor rag on Ray for being a tacky, Trump-like cash-flasher with no sense of refinement. These dynamics also reflect themselves in the meticulously described fake subcultures he creates for the strip as well, such as Nice Pete's intensely complex country decorum, or the unspoken rules of the garage sale world. There are rules, and there are spaces one is meant to occupy, and stepping outside of them is to invite ridicule. While I don't necessarily agree with all of this, I do love literature-style analysis of pretty much everything I enjoy, so that's always welcome with me. I agree with the sentiment that Onstad is reflecting the inherent unfairness of society in regards to tackiness, and the toleration therof according to how much money you have. Most of his grotesques live squarely in the zone of deprivation, and tend to have traits that, as I've gotten older, I've seen more and more as inherently sad and reflective of the cruelty of capitalism towards those from whom it can no longer extract value. To me, a lot of what Onstad's humor lives in is that exact stepping-out of boundaries, both for good and ill, which is something that I identify with strongly as a New Englander. While we might claim to be all about egalitarianism, what New Englanders really love is strict social rules that must apply to everyone, rich and poor. We hate it when anyone steps out of these lines, and will forcefully hammer them back into place with our greatest tool - icy silence and minding our own business. Ray steps out of the bounds of these rules all the time, and is protected from the consequences by his wealth and, let's face it, almost total lack of the ability for self-reflection. He's prodded back into the bounds of society by the disapproval of his friends from lower social economic status, reflecting the way that society is 'supposed' to keep the rich in line, which of course only works in a comic strip. Roast Beef is very interesting from a New England point of view because his almost pathological adherence to the rules of society, his ability to manipulate those rules and expectations to his ends, and his rare, intense breaking of them, reflect the other end of the spectrum. Roast Beef had to learn the rules of the system he is in so well that they've been branded into every neuron, because society will not afford him the same allowances as Ray when he breaks them. Todd lives entirely outside of the rules of that society, which we can also read in his depiction as a silhouette, a void into which the light of the world cannot reach. Strange Cares fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 02:40
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I don't care who hears it, Donald Trump is a tacky bastard!
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Dec 29, 2020 02:52
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I feel strongly that these things were happening in the strip not because Onstad believed they were right, but because he was not thinking about them at all EDIT: vvv maybe so, but that doesn't mean Achewood isn't classist LordSaturn fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 02:52
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I think that Onstad did what artists do, he produced sincere, nuanced and recognizably accurate depictions of segments of society he was personally familiar with. Trying to attach any kind of agenda to that is pretty much always going to be a mistake imo.
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Dec 29, 2020 03:00
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Dec 29, 2020 03:06
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Johnny Aztec posted:I don't care who hears it, Donald Trump is a tacky bastard! Hush Teodor don't wake up that wino
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Dec 29, 2020 03:21
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Ray is good.
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Dec 29, 2020 05:05
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Dec 29, 2020 05:08
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Dec 29, 2020 05:14
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Dec 29, 2020 05:37
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As far as I can tell this is the exact moment in the strip Ray went from upper middle class comfortable to being a millionaire. Then the rear end in your pants song opened up the music business for him. Stringent posted:I think that Onstad did what artists do, he produced sincere, nuanced and recognizably accurate depictions of segments of society he was personally familiar with. Trying to attach any kind of agenda to that is pretty much always going to be a mistake imo. It doesn't strictly matter what the author's agenda is when trying to analyze what a work says. Lots of novels and films that are considered to have strong class commentary supposedly turned out that way entirely on accident.
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Dec 29, 2020 06:18
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Fine, but the statements "Achewood is classist" and "American society is classist and Achewood depicts it accurately" are not the same.
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Dec 29, 2020 06:25
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yes, one of them wastes a ton of paper
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Dec 29, 2020 06:33
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I think it's fair to note the way Beef is treated as sympathetic because of his upbringing, contrary to most obviously Showbiz. It reads like Beef got out of Circumstances because he deserved to, and the people around him didn't cause they didn't. All that material is funny and well-crafted and keenly observed (can't you just hear "ROAST BEEF! Your hot dog cheeser is ready! Get out here NOW!" ringing in your ears?), and also at least a little mean-spirited and in keeping with some widespread attitudes we'd be better off mending. I also think it's misguided feel like you need to label the author (or even a character like Pat) as "conservative" because that's just what the bad people are.
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Dec 29, 2020 06:34
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Lurdiak posted:As far as I can tell this is the exact moment in the strip Ray went from upper middle class comfortable to being a millionaire. Then the rear end in your pants song opened up the music business for him. Pretty sure rear end In Your Pants happened first actually
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Dec 29, 2020 06:40
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Stringent posted:I think that Onstad did what artists do, he produced sincere, nuanced and recognizably accurate depictions of segments of society he was personally familiar with. Trying to attach any kind of agenda to that is pretty much always going to be a mistake imo. oh man, I guess all art analysis is a waste of time then
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Dec 29, 2020 07:43
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"He whispers secret, private dachshund ideas to the creature,"
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Dec 29, 2020 08:46
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drrockso20 posted:Pretty sure rear end In Your Pants happened first actually
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Dec 29, 2020 08:51
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Ok Comboomer posted:oh man, I guess all art analysis is a waste of time then If all it consists of is trying to come up with derogatory caricatures of a dude that wrote a web comic you ostensibly like I reckon it is.
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Dec 29, 2020 12:04
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Stringent posted:If all it consists of is trying to come up with derogatory caricatures of a dude that wrote a web comic you ostensibly like I reckon it is. One thing that sticks out to me in retrospect is how exoticized Mexican/Latino culture and people are throughout Achewood. Are there any Latino characters who speak without dialect, even? Maybe in the blogs.
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Dec 29, 2020 12:59
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Lurdiak posted:A huge amount of the casual humor in the strip is about people being tacky, classless or not world wise and thus deserving of contempt. Society has forever associated these traits, and the very concept of class, with poverty. But the important question is what Achewood associates these traits with, isn’t it? If Achewood itself does not tie tackiness to class but depicts poor and rich people as equally capable of being tacky, it doesn’t seem fair or even particularly relevant to say that it’s still classist because people in the real world do tie tackiness to class.
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Dec 29, 2020 12:59
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rear end in your Pants definitely came first, it's how Ray gets rich in the first place (by going 34 times platinum) Buying a piece of old porn that ends up being worth a ridiculous amount of money is just regular "Oh hey! 50 bucks!" Ray style happenings.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:04
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Nessus posted:The issue is "where do you go from there," I figure. There is problematic stuff in Achewood. Where do you go from there? Like at a certain point you are just Beef, pointing to the larger fish. What if it's just that you really enjoyed the comic but the comic is over and you haven't found something else to entertain yourself with so you keep coming back to what you enjoyed previously and start inventing stories about it to entertain yourself only those stories loving suck?
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Dec 29, 2020 13:30
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Lurdiak posted:I mean sure. A huge amount of the casual humor in the strip is about people being tacky, classless or not world wise and thus deserving of contempt. Society has forever associated these traits, and the very concept of class, with poverty. Even Roast Beef, who is dirt poor and carries a ton of baggage, is allowed to judge other trashy people because while he might be poor, he has the good sense not to bother others with his poorness and not be tacky about it. A lot of what Ray doesn't like about some of his other rich acquaintances, particularly bensington butters, is all about this concept of respectability and projecting classiness. And in turn Beef, Cornelius and sometimes even Teodor rag on Ray for being a tacky, Trump-like cash-flasher with no sense of refinement. These dynamics also reflect themselves in the meticulously described fake subcultures he creates for the strip as well, such as Nice Pete's intensely complex country decorum, or the unspoken rules of the garage sale world. There are rules, and there are spaces one is meant to occupy, and stepping outside of them is to invite ridicule. This is nice and thoughtful. With regards to the bolded part, I'm curious as to how Lyle fits in. I've never been entirely clear on what's going on with him. I generally see him as a bit of a foil to Cornelius but it's not just that he violates norms out of selfishness, he stands by a cultural code that is quite dead (at least to Onstad). Cornelius has a 'classic' style but Lyle's just kind of nostalgic, but the comic seems to waffle on whether it's pathetic, tragic, or just simply what it is.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:55
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Ok Comboomer posted:oh man, I guess all art analysis is a waste of time then i mean yeah most of it totally is
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Dec 29, 2020 14:03
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Lyle's old school machismo saves him from being considered tacky in a world where old school manliness is treated with genuine awe. None of the actual protagonists can approach it, but all of them respect it, and the fact that Lyle is a bootleg Hell's Angel puts him in the periphery of one of Achewood's most genuine admirations. Like, between Ramses Luther Smuckles, the cellphone holders that tap into ancient leonine masculinity, and the Badass Games (among other arcs!), it's a consistent theme that the main cast at once long for, respect, and know that they can never truly attain the retrograde, muscular manhood of the previous generation. Ray idolises his stoic, god-like father, but is forever distant from him, and in fact Ramses Luther's emotional distance is part and parcel of the model of rugged masculinity he embodies. If he was in touch with his emotions, able to connect with his son, he would somehow be less majestic in the comic's reckoning. The fact that Lyle lurks around the thematic area of Tough Guy makes up for the parallel fact that his main skills involve working at failing restaurants, arguing with children, and vomiting in interesting places. Take away the Ace of Spades theming and Lyle is a stone's throw from Showbiz, but the comic treats him with infinitely more respect because he carries the ermine of Yesterday's Man. (Cornelius winning the Badass Games is allowed because a) he's elderly, therefore removed from the rough-and-tumble of machismo even if he knows the dance steps and b) he's old enough that his manhood is from a generation before the one the comic is obsessed with, and so we're allowed to approach and laugh at it without feeling so much that it's a monument to an unattainable ideal.)
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Dec 29, 2020 14:32
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Lyle barfed at a football. Lyle is literally never treated with any respect outside of his lesson plan for realistic restaurant work and when he has oasis as indentured servants.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:17
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Teodor drinks his Grolsch without asking
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Dec 29, 2020 15:17
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i live near the grolsch brewery and its weird how americans exoticize such a plain and ordinary lager
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Dec 29, 2020 15:20
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What comic are people reading that they think Lyle is supposed to be some kind of figure of admiration? The dude is a broke filthy alcoholic. When it's not using that for laughs and it gets serious, it almost always comes down on the side of him being a figure of pity at best.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:40
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Shibawanko posted:i live near the grolsch brewery and its weird how americans exoticize such a plain and ordinary lager It’s because it has a cool flip top and seems better than stella
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Dec 29, 2020 16:05
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He's not a figure of admiration, but he avoids being a totally scathing caricature, like the strip's other portraits of burnouts living awful lives, because he's a tough biker guy who likes to drink and fight, and Achewood has a consistent soft spot for that sort of masculinity. Achewood thinks Lyle is funny and sometimes pathetic, but also sometimes sort of cool. Compare to Showbiz, who does many of the same things but who's usually painted as more obviously contemptible and sad.
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Dec 29, 2020 16:08
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Lyle is, literally, never cool. Ever. He can’t even open a beer at a wedding. The coolest thing he does is help phillipe electrocute pats dick and frankly that’s not cool. It’s just deserved
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Dec 29, 2020 16:14
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| # ? May 24, 2024 05:13 |
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Android Blues posted:He's not a figure of admiration, but he avoids being a totally scathing caricature, like the strip's other portraits of burnouts living awful lives, because he's a tough biker guy who likes to drink and fight, and Achewood has a consistent soft spot for that sort of masculinity. Showbiz has a history of taking advantage of Beef, antagonizing and humiliating him, and then abandoning him. Beef gives Showbiz multiple opportunities to be even Todd-level cool without success. Showbiz’s relationship to Beef and the rest of the cast is purely antagonistic, mercenary at best. For all of Lyle’s faults, he may be slightly less loyal than Téodor, but he’s about as dependable. The only thing Beef can depend on Showbiz to do is get what he wants and leave.
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Dec 29, 2020 16:18
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