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I think that forcing people to take python 101 and then telling them it's now their fault if they starve to death is bad call me crazy also did you know that coal miners aren't the only people who were de-employed when their region's basic economic sector was erased? there are neighborhoods and whole big cities that are now superfluous. there are even people who used to live in revitalized city neighborhoods who were displaced because those neighborhoods weren't revitalized for them. They can't all be taught to code and moved (from the homes they might still own!) to places where there are are already housing shortages. maybe also throwing away whole cities-worth of housing, roads, aqueducts, and everything else is suboptimal.
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Dec 30, 2020 21:04
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Greg12 posted:lol @ training people to do jobs that don't exist where they live wow Say's Law will just never die huh
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Dec 30, 2020 21:13
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Greg12 posted:I think that forcing people to take python 101 and then telling them it's now their fault if they starve to death is bad Who is doing that? edit for content: https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1344307458085412867 Probably good for Hawley's chances in a presidential primary if no Trumps run, but less so for congressional Republicans up in competitive seats in 2022. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 30, 2020 |
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Dec 30, 2020 21:47
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https://twitter.com/PoliticalKiwi/status/1344396273432948738 independent analysis but 
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Dec 30, 2020 23:02
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Greg12 posted:I think that forcing people to take python 101 and then telling them it's now their fault if they starve to death is bad I think we all agree but the solution also isn't prop up a dying industry that in the longer term is bad for everyone. And as I previously mentioned, these towns also don't want to modernize. so...what;s the solution?
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Dec 30, 2020 23:18
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Mooseontheloose posted:I think we all agree but the solution also isn't prop up a dying industry that in the longer term is bad for everyone. And as I previously mentioned, these towns also don't want to modernize. so...what;s the solution? everyone in Wirt County, West Virginia has been assigned Blocks [K and J] in the new planned city of Obama, Arkansas. your family's assigned moving truck will arrive [January 26th]. your new job when you arrive is [application stamper]
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Dec 30, 2020 23:36
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There's plenty of physical work that needs to be done amidst a crumbling infrastructure. The Green New Deal was explicitly about this, but Joe Biden does not support it and there is no political will among the Democratic Party to get it done. So you're left trying to teach people to code and inadvertently advocating for engineers to be crushed under a theoretical glut of new programmers.i say swears online posted:everyone in Wirt County, West Virginia has been assigned Blocks [K and J] in the new planned city of Obama, Arkansas. your family's assigned moving truck will arrive [January 26th]. your new job when you arrive is [application stamper] If Democrats had this level of central planning, they wouldn't be hoping to eke out two victories in Georgia to presumably do something over the next four years. They'd already be in control.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:43
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With the way the economy has shifted even with things like remote work it simply no longer makes sense for these towns and cities to exist. What is a little interesting is that many coal miners are rather educated and skilled machinists. It's just that once coals gone, then the best would be for them to pack their bags and relocate. That'd ideally be Texas, Nevada or even California with it's green energy industry.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:43
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i say swears online posted:everyone in Wirt County, West Virginia has been assigned Blocks [K and J] in the new planned city of Obama, Arkansas. your family's assigned moving truck will arrive [January 26th]. your new job when you arrive is [application stamper] there is no more important issue than saving dying rural white america despite centuries of demographic migration and economic change. i propose we all volunteer to move to a rural area.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:46
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Aruan posted:there is no more important issue than saving dying rural white america despite centuries of demographic migration and economic change. i propose we all volunteer to move to a rural area. "Just move". Edit: "And bring your coding knowledge".
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Dec 30, 2020 23:55
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Judakel posted:"Just move". correct, we all need to move to rural WV. I've been there and it's great! (it's not  )
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Dec 30, 2020 23:56
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Aruan posted:correct, we all need to move to rural WV. I've been there and it's great! (it's not Hey, maybe if you had some kind of government program that employed people in a long term infrastructure project, they'd move to the areas they are needed for the purposes of that project. Nah. Instead they just need to move to the city and compete for jobs with the glut of people already living there.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:00
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Judakel posted:Hey, maybe if you had some kind of government program that employed people in a long term infrastructure project, they'd move to the areas they are needed for the purposes of that project. Nah. Instead they just need to move to the city and compete for jobs with the glut of people already living there. the greater point is to accept that urban/suburban migration is going to continue (like it has for centuries) and instead of trying to artifically preserve rural areas like some sort of sanctuary through make work infrastructure and jobs programs, to instead provide enough of a social safety net that people can live where they want. its not the governments job to select specific areas and incentivize people to live there; its the governments job to provide enough benefits to allow people to make a choice without having to compromise a social safety net. and maybe if they provide enough of those benefits then people won't be so eager to migrate - or maybe they will anyway, because of cultural distinctions. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 00:09
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I'm not sure why it's assumed that West Virginia coal mining towns are full of hidden socialists who would vote for Democrats if they just did <economic policy>. Whatever that policy is, Republicans are even further from doing it than Democrats, but those towns vote overwhelmingly and increasingly Republican. I think the logical conclusion to make there is that they aren't voting on the basis of economic policy.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:16
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Aruan posted:the greater point is to accept that urban/suburban migration is going to continue (like it has for centuries) and instead of trying to artifically preserve rural areas like some sort of sanctuary through make work infrastructure and jobs programs, to instead provide enough of a social safety net that people can live where they want. its not the governments job to select specific areas and incentivize people to live there; its the governments job to provide enough benefits to allow people to make a choice without having to compromise a social safety net. and maybe if they provide enough of those benefits then people won't be so eager to migrate - or maybe they will anyway, because of cultural distinctions. Make work is most work and if neoliberals realized this, maybe we'd be able to employ these people on a consistent basis. The government's job is whatever people decide. In this case, the government's job should be to employ these people and move them into the areas that require infrastructure to be built.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:21
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seriously, you should accept that rural west virginia probably isn't going to vote democrat (which is ok, you don't need to win 50 states), and hope that people there have their lives improved by necessary social programs that benefit everyone, like UBI and universal health care, while also focusing infrastructure and employment programs on top of those benefits in to the areas where they'll do the most good - the areas where people live, including POC people and poor people - which are suburbs and cities.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:22
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Aruan posted:seriously, you should accept that rural west virginia probably isn't going to vote democrat (which is ok, you don't need to win 50 states), and hope that people there have their lives improved by necessary social programs that benefit everyone, like UBI and universal health care, while also focusing infrastructure and employment programs on top of those benefits in to the areas where they'll do the most good - the areas where people live, including POC people and poor people - which are suburbs and cities. Why would it matter whether they vote Democrat or not? As long as you've won, who cares where it came from. All those programs are fine and good, but people want more than subsistence. I am not arguing against them as a baseline.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:26
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Judakel posted:Why would it matter whether they vote Democrat or not? All those programs are fine and good, but people want more than subsistence. I am not arguing against them as a baseline. why should we focus infrastructure and jobs programs in areas where only 20% of people live, instead of 80%?
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Dec 31, 2020 00:28
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I really hope those GA polls are on point and that it turns out that people really DO need $2000 and will hold it against the GOP for fuking with that money but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:30
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Judakel posted:Why would it matter whether they vote Democrat or not? As long as you've won, who cares where it came from. All those programs are fine and good, but people want more than subsistence. I am not arguing against them as a baseline. Rural America (on average, of course 20-30% of them voted for Democrats) appears not to want those social programs, since they vote for people who run against them. Much of the posting is insinuating that Democrats lose rural areas because they aren't doing rural infrastructure and jobs programs, but there's no evidence for that. Infrastructure and social programs should be designed to help people in urban and suburban areas because those are the places where people live. Why would you tailor your program to disproportionately benefit 18% of the population (and an 18% that's more white than the country as a whole) when it doesn't even make them vote for you?
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Dec 31, 2020 00:33
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Aruan posted:why should we focus infrastructure and jobs programs in areas where only 20% of people live, instead of 80%? To win 50 percent+1 elections, probably
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Dec 31, 2020 00:35
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Aruan posted:why should we focus infrastructure and jobs programs in areas where only 20% of people live, instead of 80%? Did you miss the part where I advocated moving them as needed? Clearly you did. Pay attention, because people go where jobs are guaranteed. You will need to rebuild some of the crumbling infrastructure in those places, though. Our transport networks need infrastructure there, too
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Dec 31, 2020 00:35
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James Garfield posted:Rural America (on average, of course 20-30% of them voted for Democrats) appears not to want those social programs, since they vote for people who run against them. Much of the posting is insinuating that Democrats lose rural areas because they aren't doing rural infrastructure and jobs programs, but there's no evidence for that. The reasons people vote for the people they vote for are a lot more complex than what will be good for them. Otherwise Joe Biden would not have locked up so much of the black vote. No pun intended.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:37
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Judakel posted:The reasons people vote for the people they vote for are a lot more complex than what will be good for them. Otherwise Joe Biden would not have locked up so much of the black vote. No pun intended.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:41
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Judakel posted:There's plenty of physical work that needs to be done amidst a crumbling infrastructure. Joe Biden explicitly campaigned on doing this. He just doesn't call it "The Green New Deal" or pretend that his plan is as ambitious as the GND. He has, however, spent months and months and months campaigning on the inexorable connection between jobs, building new infrastructure, and fighting climate change.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:42
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The Artificial Kid posted:I'm not quite clear, what made Trump better than Biden for 90% of black voters? Did he promise not to advocate for them to be wrongfully executed for crimes they didn't commit anymore? How about largely the same, if not in promise then in past transgressions and expected outcome? How are u posted:Joe Biden explicitly campaigned on doing this. He just doesn't call it "The Green New Deal" or pretend that his plan is as ambitious as the GND. He has, however, spent months and months and months campaigning on the inexorable connection between jobs, building new infrastructure, and fighting climate change. Biden's plan is lackluster compared to what is presently needed, yes. Now we wait and see whether even that meager offering will come to fruition. If Democrats add two seats in Georgia, they won't have an excuse. Either way, it is certainly nothing even close to what we've been discussing.
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Dec 31, 2020 00:50
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The free market can always handle rural areas that need jobs, like those giant food corporations presumably need to maintain a few towns here and there in the rural mid west for corn. until they finish replacing them with robots
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Dec 31, 2020 01:02
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Judakel posted:How about largely the same, if not in promise then in past transgressions and expected outcome? I think you're confusing what you want to be true with what actually is real. Since this is the wonk thread, I'm sure you can back this up with research.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:04
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Judakel posted:Hey, maybe if you had some kind of government program that employed people in a long term infrastructure project, they'd move to the areas they are needed for the purposes of that project. Nah. Instead they just need to move to the city and compete for jobs with the glut of people already living there. Like a bridge to nowhere? or what are you suggesting?
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Dec 31, 2020 01:07
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Jaxyon posted:I think you're confusing what you want to be true with what actually is real. Are Biden's past transgressions concerning the Black community a mystery? No, they're not. With regards to the future: no one truly knows, but if the past (and not just his past, but neoliberalism's) is any indication, then I do not expect major improvements to black lives beyond what markets will allow.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:09
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Like a bridge to nowhere? or what are you suggesting? I am talking about rebuilding our transport infrastructure, which is literally crumbling. That includes plenty of bridges. Hell, if we wanted to be really ambitious, we could shoot for the moon and build national high-speed rail networks. Not just rebuild things that are falling apart. This is all well beyond anything we can politically accomplish today or in the near future. Still, there is plenty of worthwhile work to be done.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:13
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Judakel posted:Are Biden's past transgressions concerning the Black community a mystery? No, they're not. With regards to the future: no one truly knows, but if the past (and not just his past, but neoliberalism's) is any indication, then I do not expect major improvements to black lives beyond what markets will allow. You're making statements on what the black community thinks, when polling data exists. Do you have data to back up your position or not?
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Dec 31, 2020 01:13
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Like a bridge to nowhere? or what are you suggesting? Build highways through every dying company coal town!
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Dec 31, 2020 01:13
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Judakel posted:I am talking about rebuilding our transport infrastructure, which is literally crumbling. That includes plenty of bridges. Hell, if we wanted to be really ambitious, we could shoot for the moon and build national high-speed rail networks. Not just rebuild things that are falling apart. This is all well beyond anything we can politically accomplish today or in the near future. Still, there is plenty of worthwhile work to be done. The state with the worst infrastructure is Rhode Island. Let's look at bridges: quote:Rhode Island is home to the highest percentage of structurally deficient (SD) bridges in the country. In 2019, 22.3 % of bridges were structurally deficient and Rhode Island residents and out-of-state drivers crossed these bridges a combined average of nearly four million times a day. In an effort to reverse decades of underinvestment, the state established a sweeping program, RhodeWorks, designed to make significant upfront investments in road and bridge infrastructure. The program is funded through a combination of new truck tolls and innovative financing tools. By utilizing an asset management approach that includes condition reports and life cycle forecasting, RIDOT is prioritizing improvements and updating the department’s inventory to a state of good repair. Modest progress has been observed during the first three years of the program; the number of SD bridges decreased from 192 in 2016 to 174 in 2019. Rhode Island is also 90% urban/suburban. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 01:16
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Jaxyon posted:You're making statements on what the black community thinks, when polling data exists. I don't doubt for one second that many in the Black community love Biden. That was never in question. Aruan posted:Build highways through every dying company coal town! You have a fascile understanding of where infrastructure will be needed. Yes, we should maintain some of the infrastructure that passes through those towns. We move things through there and will continue to do so even if we moved everyone out of there and put them to work elsewhere. Aruan posted:The state with the worst infrastructure is Rhode Island. Great point.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:18
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Judakel posted:I am talking about rebuilding our transport infrastructure, which is literally crumbling. That includes plenty of bridges. Hell, if we wanted to be really ambitious, we could shoot for the moon and build national high-speed rail networks. Not just rebuild things that are falling apart. This is all well beyond anything we can politically accomplish today or in the near future. Still, there is plenty of worthwhile work to be done. As important as infrastructure is, no one is revitalizing entire towns that have zero economic reason to exist anymore with a couple of one time infrastructure projects. Nor is some population 1,000 town in the middle of nowhere going to even have any companies that would be anywhere near the contracts to do heavy infrastructure projects, at best maybe a handful of people in the community might work for one of the companies that gets one of the contracts. Infrastructure is good and should be prioritized, but it's a poor substitute for an actual jobs program or ubi or similar.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:19
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Judakel posted:I don't doubt for one second that many in the Black community love Biden. That was never in question. Why should we specifically move projects to less populated rural to specifically to encourage people to move back to those areas, instead of locating infrastructure projects in places where people already live, and in the face of increasing rural migration which has occurred for centuries, independent of government policies? Stop mythologizing rural America. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 01:20
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Herstory Begins Now posted:As important as infrastructure is, no one is revitalizing entire towns that have zero economic reason to exist anymore with a couple of one time infrastructure projects. Nor is some population 1,000 town in the middle of nowhere going to even have any companies that would be anywhere near the contracts to do heavy infrastructure projects, at best maybe a handful of people in the community might work for one of the companies that gets one of the contracts. We're not neccesarily talking about revitalizing the town. We're talking about employing the people who currently live there and moving them to where their work is needed through a centralized project.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:21
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Aruan posted:Why should we specifically move projects to less populated rural areas specifically to encourage people to move back to those areas, instead of locating infrastructure projects in places where people already live, and in the face of increasing rural migration which has occurred for centuries, independent of government policies? You didn't pay attention when I said to you that we would move people as needed to where the work for these centrally-planned government projects that offered a job guarantee was.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:24
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If you wanna revitalize rural areas you need like a mega project, like highspeed rail or an arcology to not just drive migration but sustain a population increase along the hubs.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:24
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