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my parents were drug addicts so i never went to church or anything despite them being religious but I cant see any reason why marxism and spirituality would be incompatible. the kind of insane focus on the afterlife some sects have is... counter productive to materialist analysis but theres nothing inherently wrong in it. also religious groups are where we get a lot of our concepts of communal living from. most of us seem slightly critical of the state capitalist model of the USSR and PRC so it seems strange to immediately dismiss one of the few other quasi-succesful models.
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Dec 30, 2020 18:39
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apropos to nothing posted:never quite understood how people can square spiritual belief with a materialist philosophy like marxism. theres other socialist traditions which come from or have some connection to religious or spiritual belief and many other philosophies or ideas which have influence from both marxism and religion or some merging of the two like liberation theology, but to be a marxist specifically i think more or less requires someone to be an atheist it's possible to be a believer and a materialist. Thomas Jefferson was famous for it. books have been written about the compatibility of buddhist tenets with atheism. theism is a specific thing, so atheism is a lot of other things. from my reading lately i'd argue that Mao describes the reasons behind his successes in religious, even apocalyptic terms: the victory is inevitable, the kingdom of
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Dec 30, 2020 19:19
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apropos to nothing posted:never quite understood how people can square spiritual belief with a materialist philosophy like marxism. most people don’t define themselves as only one thing, in my experience. it just comes down to this: apropos to nothing posted:some merging of the two
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Dec 30, 2020 19:21
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revolutionary socialism is absolutely messianic in communication and is rather weird from certain Marxist perspectives deny the amazing power that derives in it hope and faith in the revolutionary cause is what gives it something else that is terrifying to the liberal worldview: something to truly live for that goes beyond individual perspective rooted in this world, not in the next
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Dec 30, 2020 19:29
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im aware it's kind of a dumbass lib thing to say but unironically we have much to learn from other cultures and traditions, and as marxists we should be constantly evaluating any potential tool or strategy to incorporate. the revolution isnt inevitable.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:31
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Larry Parrish posted:I cant see any reason why marxism and spirituality would be incompatible Engels has a decent little breakdown of why they’re, if not incompatible, at least poorly matched, in the introduction of Socialism: Utopian and Scientific where he discusses materialism, summed up here quote:As soon, however, as our agnostic has made these formal mental reservations, he talks and acts as the rank materialist he at bottom is. He may say that, as far as we know, matter and motion, or as it is now called, energy, can neither be created nor destroyed, but that we have no proof of their not having been created at some time or other. But if you try to use this admission against him in any particular case, he will quickly put you out of court. If he admits the possibility of spiritualism in abstracto, he will have none of it in concreto. As far as we know and can know, he will tell you there is no creator and no Ruler of the universe; as far as we are concerned, matter and energy can neither be created nor annihilated; for us, mind is a mode of energy, a function of the brain; all we know is that the material world is governed by immutable laws, and so forth. Thus, as far as he is a scientific man, as far as he knows anything, he is a materialist; outside his science, in spheres about which he knows nothing, he translates his ignorance into Greek and calls it agnosticism.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:35
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im gonna be honest. that just sounds like a description of an everyday person.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:37
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Larry Parrish posted:the revolution isnt inevitable. Marx does kind of characterize it that way, though, at least in what I’ve read Larry Parrish posted:im gonna be honest. that just sounds like a description of an everyday person. 100% agree, that was my point in my initial response to apropos
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Dec 30, 2020 19:37
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apropos to nothing posted:never quite understood how people can square spiritual belief with a materialist philosophy like marxism. theres other socialist traditions which come from or have some connection to religious or spiritual belief and many other philosophies or ideas which have influence from both marxism and religion or some merging of the two like liberation theology, but to be a marxist specifically i think more or less requires someone to be an atheist people really, really like their superstitions. also there are lots of startling things that come from recognizing that the religion/spirituality is essentially a fiction.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:38
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yeah I mean I understand that people do all sorts of contradictory things but most spiritual belief hinges on some set of ideas or rules which outline whats good and bad and these things dont change and are decided by a supreme being and how well you follow them determines what happens to you after you die. this kind of thinking doesnt gel with dialectical materialism at all and imo runs completely counter to it. not a value judgement or anything but i just dont understand how someone can genuinely believe in/practice dialectical materialism and also be a genuine believer/practitioner of any religion im aware of.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:42
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i tend to assume that because i dont believe in objective morality that nobody else does either but its another one of those blind spots I have. its just not a way my brain is capable of thinking. maybe im just autistic. it's such an alien position I cant believe that it's real, cuz like, for objective morality to exist, everyone would have to be capable of thinking the same way, and even a basic conversation with your friends about what the best food is will rapidly prove that even similar thought processes result in wildly different results, so any objective thought structure is impossible, and anyway this whole train of thought is why people think I'm weird when I dont lie about what I'm thinking
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Dec 30, 2020 19:49
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krupskaya recounting her experiences as a teacher at a night school for adults has imo the best insight regarding revolution and religion: “Another workman, a member of a religious sect, who had been seeking God all his life, wrote with satisfaction that not until last Holy Week had he learned from Rudakov (another pupil) that there wasn't any God at all, and this made him feel so good, because the worst thing in the world, was being a slave of God – you just had to grin and bear it - whereas being a slave of man was much easier – at least you could fight back”
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Dec 30, 2020 19:50
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apropos to nothing posted:“Another workman, a member of a religious sect, who had been seeking God all his life, wrote with satisfaction that not until last Holy Week had he learned from Rudakov (another pupil) that there wasn't any God at all, and this made him feel so good, because the worst thing in the world, was being a slave of God – you just had to grin and bear it - whereas being a slave of man was much easier – at least you could fight back” this is one of those startling things that comes from grasping the consequences of god not existing and the whole edifice being fiction. lots and lots of people have a hard time in accepting the implications and also turning away thousands and thousands of years of tradition and social pressure.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:56
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god is dead but the twitching body is making the more desperate loyal children hopeful that he may be revived personally im only here for the reading of the will
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Dec 30, 2020 19:57
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Larry Parrish posted:i tend to assume that because i dont believe in objective morality that nobody else does either but its another one of those blind spots I have. the vast majority of people don’t, even if they think they do. you can interpret scripture to mean almost whatever you want. people’s morality is as liable to change as the conclusions they draw from dialectical materialism
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Dec 30, 2020 19:58
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bedpan posted:this is one of those startling things that comes from grasping the consequences of god not existing and the whole edifice being fiction. lots and lots of people have a hard time in accepting the implications and also turning away thousands and thousands of years of tradition and social pressure. ... yeah not a perspective i can understand lol. im always like 'of course it's not literally true, you're supposed to interpret and apply them to your life', but then i remember that some people claim to really believe that stuff is literally the word of god directly, even though it's on a book that got sold for money off of a printing press. i cant understand it, I cant even intellectualize it. the only thing I really believe is that only your own interpretation is correct, so it's just totally incompatible. but hey if the only way some people can reconcile spirituality and materialism is to completely abandon one, whatever works for you, man.
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Dec 30, 2020 20:00
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personally I've never been able to get over the Problem of Evil and I wasn't indoctrinated as a kid to ignore it. and any god which does permit evil... well, let's just say I think of them as cosmic landlords...
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Dec 30, 2020 20:10
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philosophy isn’t over with marxism and even the most distant communist horizon is still, I assume, going to have children who grow up pondering the same questions children have pondered since we descended from the trees
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Dec 30, 2020 20:34
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indigi posted:Engels has a decent little breakdown of why they’re, if not incompatible, at least poorly matched, in the introduction of Socialism: Utopian and Scientific where he discusses materialism, summed up here yeah i think you can be a marxist and a believer insofar as you are functionally not a believer in any place that it matters. if you don't think (or at least don't act as if) supernatural forces can act on matter, and don't think think (or at least don't act as if) moral dictates have any material strength in themselves whether they're derived from the gut or a particular book, then you can make all the claims about cosmic watchmakers you like
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Dec 30, 2020 20:36
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Ferrinus posted:yeah i think you can be a marxist and a believer insofar as you are functionally not a believer in any place that it matters. if you don't think (or at least don't act as if) supernatural forces can act on matter, and don't think think (or at least don't act as if) moral dictates have any material strength in themselves whether they're derived from the gut or a particular book, then you can make all the claims about cosmic watchmakers you like organize the unitarian universalists
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Dec 30, 2020 20:39
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religion is the primary vehicle for conceptualizing abstract thought like ethics and morality among most of the people of the world, even if it's typically molded and constricted to serve as a means of political power and social control. it could potentially waste away if philosophy becomes developed in an accessible enough form that it supercedes religion's role in this but i think liberal efforts to do the opposite and make it into an ivory tower subject will be difficult to reverse, even if it should be attempted.
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Dec 30, 2020 21:13
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T-man posted:personally I've never been able to get over the Problem of Evil and I wasn't indoctrinated as a kid to ignore it. and any god which does permit evil... well, let's just say I think of them as cosmic landlords... 
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Dec 30, 2020 21:24
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you can sort of look past the Problem of Evil if you believe in universal salvation. of course this solution (much like the problem) only really applies to Abrahamic cosmologies
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Dec 30, 2020 22:46
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i always thought it was kind of like the religious version of zeno's paradox. you know, the especially stupid one, about how achilles can't overcome the tortoise because there's an infinitely descending fraction of distance to go. you'd have to be retarded to seriously consider it as a moral quandry. if there's no free will and you're just a robot, then nothing loving matters, and especially not you or what you think, and if there is free will then whatever evil is to you isn't the fault of the creator anyway and its up to you to do something about, and any appeal to god is just an excuse for yourself.
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Dec 30, 2020 22:49
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american leftism is when lapsed protestants realize they're on the outside
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Dec 30, 2020 22:51
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Larry Parrish posted:i always thought it was kind of like the religious version of zeno's paradox. you know, the especially stupid one, about how achilles can't overcome the tortoise because there's an infinitely descending fraction of distance to go. you'd have to be retarded to seriously consider it as a moral quandry. if there's no free will and you're just a robot, then nothing loving matters, and especially not you or what you think, and if there is free will then whatever evil is to you isn't the fault of the creator anyway and its up to you to do something about, and any appeal to god is just an excuse for yourself. the “free will” response doesn’t apply to poo poo like disease, drought, lightning strikes, etc. the morality of people isn’t solely what’s at question, it’s the morality of a supposedly-benevolent omnipotent deity
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Dec 30, 2020 22:59
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indigi posted:the “free will” response doesn’t apply to poo poo like disease, drought, lightning strikes, etc. the morality of people isn’t solely what’s at question, it’s the morality of a supposedly-benevolent omnipotent deity i guess its just one of those things i don't get. my childhood was pretty bad, but i never thought it was anyone's fault in that way. more like society was just hosed up, and incapable of fixing itself, and therefor i was hosed up
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Dec 30, 2020 23:03
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Larry Parrish posted:i guess its just one of those things i don't get. my childhood was pretty bad, but i never thought it was anyone's fault in that way. more like society was just hosed up, and incapable of fixing itself, and therefor i was hosed up Right but if society is hosed up and you're not responsible for it since you're a kid, that's God's fault.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:17
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And any god which would permit America to exist is one not worthy of devotion
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Dec 30, 2020 23:21
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Right but if society is hosed up and you're not responsible for it since you're a kid, that's God's fault. i didn't grow up believing in god lol. thats the whole problem with not understanding that concept. i went from thinking it must be my fault, somehow, to thinking it was my parents fault, to hitting like 19 or 20 and just developing overnight into a raging communist
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Dec 30, 2020 23:21
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T-man posted:personally I've never been able to get over the Problem of Evil and I wasn't indoctrinated as a kid to ignore it. and any god which does permit evil... well, let's just say I think of them as cosmic landlords... Gnostics call this the Demiurge
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Dec 31, 2020 01:32
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I’ve only ever read random bits of the lego bible and some of proverbs from a free Gideon bible that was handed to me on the street once but the more humanistic goals and ideals of communism seem to align well with the friendlier parts of the new testament? Marx’s quote about being ruthless doesn’t mean there exists no space for faith and some normative ideas as informed by old stories
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Dec 31, 2020 03:54
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mila kunis posted:https://www.thetricontinental.org/newsletterissue/52-kerala/ Does anyone have a good sense of how genuinely Communist the state government in Kerala is, and how economic life there works? Maybe a good book or article recommendation? I've heard that conditions are relatively good compared to India as a whole, but then some people ascribe this to remittances rather than primarily due to the CPI-Marxist policies. I'm also not really clear on how much leeway they have without power on the federal level.
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Dec 31, 2020 04:04
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other states get remittances as well but don't do jack poo poo for social welfare with the money. they also seem to have pretty good on the ground organization that they've mobilized for helping with housing, dealing with that devastating flood, and the covid response as the article says, indian media is extremely terrible and oligarch controlled at a level that would make american corporate media blush and the fact that they can maintain popular support in the face of such hostile consent manufacturing plus one of the most far right national governments in the world says a lot
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Dec 31, 2020 04:27
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mila kunis posted:indian media is extremely terrible and oligarch controlled at a level that would make american corporate media blush   
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Dec 31, 2020 04:31
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incels but for national revanchism
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Dec 31, 2020 04:33
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Larry Parrish posted:i didn't grow up believing in god lol. thats the whole problem with not understanding that concept. i went from thinking it must be my fault, somehow, to thinking it was my parents fault, to hitting like 19 or 20 and just developing overnight into a raging communist drat....Larry's been a communist for two whole months.
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Dec 31, 2020 04:39
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mila kunis posted:other states get remittances as well but don't do jack poo poo for social welfare with the money. they also seem to have pretty good on the ground organization that they've mobilized for helping with housing, dealing with that devastating flood, and the covid response Is there good India media out there?
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Dec 31, 2020 04:39
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Prince Myshkin posted:drat....Larry's been a communist for two whole months. I'm 25. But basically as soon as I joined the air force I gave up on liberals forever lol.
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Dec 31, 2020 04:54
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Yossarian-22 posted:Is there good India media out there? off the top of my head: i see indian chuds cry a lot about https://thewire.in/ but that might not mean its good, it might just be liberal I found this really good breakdown of the indian farm bill protests here: https://www.theindiaforum.in/article/agrarian-crisis-punjab-and-making-anti-farm-law-protests, so maybe this site is good I follow this indian communist on twitter: https://twitter.com/vijayprashad I also found a good article from this journal once so it might be ok: https://twitter.com/epw_in
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Dec 31, 2020 05:07
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