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What annoyed me most when I popped into Jinx and Tuna on Twitch was how they didn't seem to be place any value in shields as a means of allowing DPS to do its job, instead focusing more on potential damage ceiling. You can get enough damage to clear Floor 12 with lovely purples. The hard part is surviving one-shots and those goddamn icicle staggers while having unreliable stamina regen. I know they admitted it made it more comfortable for whales to clear or something, but shields aren't a luxury to get once you max out DPS dammit. Naturally, the worst part of the Zhongli backlash to me was that low effort making GBS threads on him as a 3* character drowning out any conversation that suggested that his shield was actually a pretty decent tool, flaws aside. I was able to go from 3 stars to 6 with his help even before unintentionally whaling for his constellations, so I'll always have a soft spot for the lovely original Zhongli.
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Dec 31, 2020 07:50
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| # ? May 26, 2024 23:03 |
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^^^ Survivability is the practical bottleneck for multiple characters in the game. Maximum deeps in a theoretical environment don't mean anything if your carry dies (looking at you, Klee). Shields good. Shields good.
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Dec 31, 2020 07:56
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 Has Science Gone Too Far?
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Dec 31, 2020 08:06
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The problem is that a 5k hp shield isn't that much of a big deal when you can instantly take 10k damage in abyss 10 from an anemoboxer ragdolling you. Wait actually maybe it is big? Shields give you stagger resistance so they are probably a big reduction in unavoidable stunlock damage.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:07
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I finally did Oceanid without Klee and I AM SO SORRY FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR PAIN. Sweet Jessy I was at like 5% hp on every character at one point klenching every possible muscle trying to get some energy on a healer. Is jinx the monhun person? I remember that Klee frame breakdown and it’s like... the canceling is very obvious immediately on using her and canceling into further attack combos like... the least useful thing, and I unno it just felt exhausting and weirdly argumentative.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:07
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fischl has and always will dumpster oceanid
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Dec 31, 2020 08:09
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Nakar posted:I'm legitimately confused how anyone can play with Albedo for more than a few minutes and not notice that he gives really, really good shield coverage despite not having an actual shield skill, and then put together a video talking about Albedo using footage where that keeps happening and still not notice and mention it. Crystallize shields are weak in terms of damage absorbed, and the benefit of not being interrupted by tiny ticks would be extremely difficult to quantify. Trying to figure out how much average damage is gained through that then figuring it out for each team comp and each circumstance would be a ridiculous task. Intangible/QoL stuff is worth whatever it's worth to you and there's no math behind that.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:13
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gandlethorpe posted:What annoyed me most when I popped into Jinx and Tuna on Twitch was how they didn't seem to be place any value in shields as a means of allowing DPS to do its job, instead focusing more on potential damage ceiling. You can get enough damage to clear Floor 12 with lovely purples. The hard part is surviving one-shots and those goddamn icicle staggers while having unreliable stamina regen. I know they admitted it made it more comfortable for whales to clear or something, but shields aren't a luxury to get once you max out DPS dammit. How the gently caress do they not appreciate the utility of shields? RPATDO_LAMD posted:The problem is that a 5k hp shield isn't that much of a big deal when you can instantly take 10k damage in abyss 10 from an anemoboxer ragdolling you. Mailer posted:Crystallize shields are weak in terms of damage absorbed, and the benefit of not being interrupted by tiny ticks would be extremely difficult to quantify. Trying to figure out how much average damage is gained through that then figuring it out for each team comp and each circumstance would be a ridiculous task. Intangible/QoL stuff is worth whatever it's worth to you and there's no math behind that. Also Albedo is in a unique position where he buffs his own Crystallize shields without needing to invest stats in doing so and he produces a high volume of them. One Crystallize shield is weak, but being able to snag one every 2s means they're somewhat disposable.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:15
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Hazdoc posted:fischl has and always will dumpster oceanid I was running fish/Diluc/jean/diona. Level 91 is a high number and lol fish got eaten inside of Oz I have no idea how that happens sometimes.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:17
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I can say that slapping Albedo into my teams definitely upped everyone's survivability a very noticeable amount. The mass of crystallize shields has kept my carries pretty cozy from damage. I've mostly been running Dragonspine at WL6, Abyss may be another story entirely.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:21
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Why would someone who admits at being bad at mechanical execution place so much emphasis on frame canceling  Also, as a Serpent Spine acolyte, all shields are awesome. Please add Serpent Spine equivalents for the other weapons, miHoYo.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:23
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Oceanid has two main factors for difficulty IMO # 1 is that some of the summons are just "lmao get hosed melee users". You can barely hurt the dive-bombing hawks without a ranged character, and if you try to melee the bubble-spewing crabs or the ducks that summon water vortices around themselves you'll take tons of unavoidable damage. # 2 is that it just does a lot of damage in general. A lot of projectile-shooting enemies spawn in threes, and failing to dodge means you can take like 15k+ damage from getting hit by 3 at once and get instagibbed. Even if you have a good ranged team this still makes it tough. gandlethorpe posted:Why would someone who admits at being bad at mechanical execution place so much emphasis on frame canceling He specifically covered that in his video about animation cancelling on Klee, like "this method is optimal dps with perfect timing but that's unreasonable and I can't do it effectively anyway, so you can use this other lower-dps but easier-to-execute thing instead" I don't have a Klee so I don't remember the differences or the exact moves or whatever though. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 08:26
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gandlethorpe posted:Also, as a Serpent Spine acolyte, all shields are awesome. Please add Serpent Spine equivalents for the other weapons, miHoYo.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:28
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gandlethorpe posted:Why would someone who admits at being bad at mechanical execution place so much emphasis on frame canceling Honestly, probably because he can't do it consistently, so he's only looking at the spreadsheet of potential and feeling like he's lagging behind.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:31
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Nakar posted:It's not really fair to call that subjective and it's intellectually dishonest for him to not even mention it. What would be the objective measurement of it? He's said quite a few times that not having the kind of reactions other elements do is a balancing factor for Geo having shields. You could probably shoot him a testing methodology and get an entire video on the subject, especially since Albedo is a hot topic being the current banner. (I personally disagree that it does enough to balance, but I'm happy to be proven wrong and have future Geo pulls be good in my teams.) Edit: Nakar posted:not that this is an issue in Abyss or anything I assume any time we start talking about numbers we're talking about abyss. Domains can have special teams to smash them and you can eat your way through the overworld stuff while swapping people around to bust fatui shields or pick flowers or step on top of constructs or whatever. If we're tiering for overworld performance then Zhong Li/Diluc/Childe are S tier, Kaeya is A, and everyone else is F. 
Mailer fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 08:38
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Shields need a UI indicator and grabbing multiple shield crystals need any degree of stacking greater than zero. Shields are definitely useful but they're one of the jankiest and least fun feeling mechanics right now.
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Dec 31, 2020 08:48
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Yeah, shields being so un-user-friendly while being pushed on several new characters and weapons in a row is a big wtf to me. Oh, and happy birthday Zhongli, you old himbo 
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Dec 31, 2020 08:54
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Ah nice, the new event is running in multiplayer mode, even if you do it solo. Meaning that opening a menu does not pause the game and you absolutely will die while trying to eat something. Guess they expect us to all have the food dispenser item from the reputation quests. It also is five times as hard as the events before it, so bring a lot of fried eggs.
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Dec 31, 2020 09:39
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Is it like the previous event where you can kill multiplayer mode before starting the thing?
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Dec 31, 2020 09:43
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Mailer posted:Is it like the previous event where you can kill multiplayer mode before starting the thing? No, it seems like returning to single player also stops the event this time.
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Dec 31, 2020 09:54
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The argument against shields is in high level abyss (the only content that really needs performance to be on the high end) the shields can maybe eat a hit. The real problem with Geo in that scenario is the fact they don't break a fatui shield which means your comp gets pressed even harder.
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Dec 31, 2020 10:07
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You take that disadvantage when you bring Anemo too, except for those niche scenarios where you can swirl the right counter-element off the environment. There aren't really any chambers where you need more than two specific elements anyway, and Geo does have the minor advantage of dealing with Geo shields without a claymore.
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Dec 31, 2020 10:15
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True but usually you're bringing anemo for venti (most broken unit in the game) Sucrose (pretty close) or jean (debuff cleanser/healer) and Any Anemo is gonna be bringing VV which isn't a small DPS boost
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Dec 31, 2020 10:19
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TheFluff posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCYGLmzgWc I'm excited to see Enviosity and his level 90 Amber have a breeze with this content.
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Dec 31, 2020 10:41
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yo what the christ is this boss lol that video has the flower have a weakpoint. mine definitely did loving not! okay retried and it was there and one phased, holy poo poo that first attempt was a nightmare. kater fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 10:43
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The flower should basically act like normal after you break the shield (if you don't 1 phase it it'll start doing roomwide aoes you use the bubbles to stop) There were no bites on co op on eu at my world level so I just ground them all out solo. Don't forget one of the challenges is to hit it with 10 scarlet agate boosted attacks on one fight
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Dec 31, 2020 10:47
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gandlethorpe posted:What annoyed me most when I popped into Jinx and Tuna on Twitch was how they didn't seem to be place any value in shields as a means of allowing DPS to do its job, instead focusing more on potential damage ceiling. You can get enough damage to clear Floor 12 with lovely purples. The hard part is surviving one-shots and those goddamn icicle staggers while having unreliable stamina regen. I know they admitted it made it more comfortable for whales to clear or something, but shields aren't a luxury to get once you max out DPS dammit. Their philosophy is "cheap deeps" which is to say what is the cheapest and efficient way for new/F2P/low-spending players to clear Floor 12 in the quickest way possible, and as time moves, build their teams on the quickest road to get all of the stars. Their conclusion is that these players should prioritize upping their damage before getting shields or focus on survivability. As these players get up to speed, they should prioritize building damage since most chambers have timers, and having enough damage in the first place is the prerequisite you have to clear before you focus on other priorities that require resin. The one-shots and staggers can be addressed with restarting an abyss run which costs no resin, and they have recommended characters that can clear the domain's debuff over having shields. Of course, your suggestion is that shields are not a luxury, and with our current characters, fewer than half can generate shields on their own. So while every character can do damage to some degree especially with the right artifacts, not every character can generate a shield. That is a valid long-term argument, but Jinx and Tuna suggest DPS since that is the fastest path to clearing the abyss; they say it's fine to have shields when you can output the DPS, but for players who are limited in the number of wishes they can have, Jinx and Tuna suggested not to spend on Zhongli since his F2P/low-cost builds were not efficient for clearing the abyss. The opportunity cost and cost-effectiveness are the economic considerations they have in mind.
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Dec 31, 2020 10:55
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Stormgale posted:Don't forget one of the challenges is to hit it with 10 scarlet agate boosted attacks on one fight Have you gotten this? I can't tell when hitting it actually counts. I went ahead and sat through three phases and hit it 20 times and did not get credit. there's been an update, hopefully fixes some of this stuff. also it gets co-op going. okay yeah update fixed it easy peasy. wheres some bug primogems! kater fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 11:10
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I just had the the hitbox of the weak point at the root spawn inside the vine. Only thing that could touch it was the bears fire breath, this fight seems to have some issues.
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Dec 31, 2020 11:16
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And this is why I didn’t raise my world level to 6 yet. Really glad I waited. drat that’s a tough boss
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Dec 31, 2020 11:30
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Oh boy, just found out you can process chilled meat into raw meat.
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Dec 31, 2020 11:33
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Amber lets you break the corolla during the phase where you're hiding in the shield so she is definitely the answer here. I think the window you have to get the shield up is super short/inconsistent sometimes though.... we're going to hear a lot of complaints about this one. EDIT: Lack of pausing in challenge mode + the dragonspine mechanic is not such a good combo... No Wave fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 11:44
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This poo poo is straight up hosed. Putting aside that I think this new boss is overturned and not very fun to fight, its loving buggy too. I just tried and attempt wherein I simply could not to damage. I was trying to kill slimes for the cystals, but nothing was happening.
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Dec 31, 2020 11:54
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Stood inside the shield and had the ice AoE tear me apart, very cool.
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Dec 31, 2020 11:59
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I died a lot but you can figure out a sequence that makes the fight play out the same way every time and finish it in under two minutes if you can two cycle him. Still not really a fan of this thing's design, the corolla is so tanky and moves from his face to his body with full health most of the time unless you brought amber and cheese it. This seems like the kind of boss I would never ever want to do in co-op so I question the choice of it a bit.
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Dec 31, 2020 12:14
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No Wave posted:I died a lot but you can figure out a sequence that makes the fight play out the same way every time and finish it in under two minutes if you can two cycle him. Still not really a fan of this thing's design, the corolla is so tanky and moves from his face to his body with full health most of the time unless you brought amber and cheese it. This seems like the kind of boss I would never ever want to do in co-op so I question the choice of it a bit. Yeah, after pausing to take a breath and put in Amber I can reliably two-cycle it but it's still not very well done.
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Dec 31, 2020 12:35
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You can BTW skip 2 of three AoE phases by DPSing down the corolla weakspot. I'd suggest just bunkering in bubble for first one, don't know if its possible to stun him before that triggers. I consistently can stun him with 2 barrages of Klee E and 2 charged attacks. (WL 6) Also, when he does 3rd slam between AoEs, you have plenty of time to smack him with 2 of the crystals he spawns before running to bubble, just make sure to hit corolla, not main body.
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Dec 31, 2020 12:44
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Yeah, I like that you can go in and smack its weak spot with scarlet crystals to end the phase where you have to bunker down quicker. If you aren't just running Amber, anyway!
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Dec 31, 2020 12:46
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No Wave posted:Amber lets you break the corolla during the phase where you're hiding in the shield so she is definitely the answer here. I think the window you have to get the shield up is super short/inconsistent sometimes though.... we're going to hear a lot of complaints about this one. Two bennets and a kequing meant that my team didn't ever let it get back up after the first knockdown phase. Pure DPS > Needing Amber to speed things up later 
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Dec 31, 2020 12:59
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| # ? May 26, 2024 23:03 |
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This boss is a bitch, but once you get into a groove with a good team, it's fairly easy. Good healers are absolutely mandatory. Do we know what the crowns do yet?
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Dec 31, 2020 13:06
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